Dipper rotation

[dipper]

First off, it's a mentality that we are food plotters not farmers. We don't have to manage the same way they do. We don't have to play by their conventional rules. In essence, we are "cover croppers". I didn't make these things up, alot smarter people than I did. http://www.sare.org/Learning-Center/Books/Managing-Cover-Crops-Profitably-3rd-Edition/Text-Version
Cover croppers put very little care in the way they plant and manage their cover crops. I've used cover cropping in my small farming operation. Cover crops saved my ass, actually made me a bunch of $$$ in the drought of 2012. I'm simply taking these "loose" management principles cover croppers use, with a food plotters spin.
The huge bonus for us, is these cover crops are also favored deer food. It is the same crap the BOB on the bag companies are charging huge money for, when these plants are really easy an cheap to grow.
It isn't like you need all the expensive no till equipment either. So don't be turned away by that. Great results can be reached with a sprayer and lawn spreader. The soil doesn't need to be teared apart either. It's about understanding the life cycles of the specific planst, and adjusting sprayings, plantings, and invasive species to make things easier and cheaper.

 

[dipper]

Dipper - interesting stuff and I want to make sure I understand. I also have a few questions.

So you no-till your soybeans directly into the standing rye? They late summer you flatten the rye running a Cultipack over everything? You then no-till brassicas into the flattened rye and soybeans?

Do the soybeans brake or what happens to them when you roll over them with a Cultipack? I assume you do this in late August/September or the volunteer rye would be way past maturity come winter/spring? Must be around the time the soybeans are drying down so don't they just flatten out?

Sorry for lots of questions I'm just really interested and trying to understand. I'm working my way towards 100% no-till. I purchased a 5 row JD 7000 planter this past year and so far so good.

Thanks!

Yes, soybeans can be seeded into standing rye. No till works, I would bet broadcasting as well. I'm finding almost anything can be. I really like seeding peas in with rye. It's really cool, they climb right up the tall rye, sometimes reaching 6'. I also like adding sunflowers an sorghum into rye, they add alot of OM in sandy soil.

Correct, mid-late summer (depending on your location) you can flatten the mature rye and it will germinate. You peas, beans, clover, sunflowers, etc. will survive. You can also add additional treats like brassicas, oats, and more rye to make the only real 365 day a year plot. You'll have some weeds like ragweed, and others, which surprisenly the deer also love to eat. As summer winds down so does your "warm season crop". That opens up the door for your cool season plants. You might have to deal with nasty invasive grass. That's were grass select herbicides comes in.

It might sound complicated, but it is really simple and easy. I'll try to keep adding pictures. But there isn't a whole lot going on besides growing right now.

 

[NYPLOTTER]

Yes, soybeans can be seeded into standing rye. No till works, I would bet broadcasting as well. I'm finding almost anything can be. I really like seeding peas in with rye. It's really cool, they climb right up the tall rye, sometimes reaching 6'. I also like adding sunflowers an sorghum into rye, they add alot of OM in sandy soil.

Correct, mid-late summer (depending on your location) you can flatten the mature rye and it will germinate. You peas, beans, clover, sunflowers, etc. will survive. You can also add additional treats like brassicas, oats, and more rye to make the only real 365 day a year plot. You'll have some weeds like ragweed, and others, which surprisenly the deer also love to eat. As summer winds down so does your "warm season crop". That opens up the door for your cool season plants. You might have to deal with nasty invasive grass. That's were grass select herbicides comes in.

It might sound complicated, but it is really simple and easy. I'll try to keep adding pictures. But there isn't a whole lot going on besides growing right now.

Any suggestions on how to pit down rye seed on say 4ac of Soybeans? Without running everything over of corse.

Also, doesn't the volunteer rye get to mature when runnin it over in rate summer? Even in NY I plant my rye in late Septemeber so running over mature rye a month early to reseed seems like it would get to mature for a winter crop and certainty before Spring, no?

 

[dipper]

Pin down? Ya a cultipacker, but it has to be mature. I've seen guys using timber and 4x4s too.

If your beans are looking really good inside that rye or you don't want to set them back, you can leave them too. (This is what I mean not thinking like a farmer-he needs clean soybeans, we don't) That standing rye will protect from browse and also make deer feel safer feeding in it. You don't have to flatten the rye, especially if you have plenty of beans to carry you all fall. I feel you are a step ahead of the game just having those beans growing in the rye in the first place.

I've planted rye in early spring as a cover crop in my garden. You wanna add organic matter to your soil plant rye this early. It doesn't grow "stemmy" like it does the following spring after planting. I don't know what it is, but the plant needs to winter to mature. It basically grows into a clump. The plant will get about 16"s, and it will die, sending up new tender growth.

There are more guys planting rye earlier and earlier. Especially in northern areas where guys want maximum biomass. Nobody has called me a liar yet, maybe they will this fall because a bunch of guys were planting in May. haha

 

[NYPLOTTER]

Pin down? Ya a cultipacker, but it has to be mature. I've seen guys using timber and 4x4s too.

If your beans are looking really good inside that rye or you don't want to set them back, you can leave them too. (This is what I mean not thinking like a farmer-he needs clean soybeans, we don't) That standing rye will protect from browse and also make deer feel safer feeding in it. You don't have to flatten the rye, especially if you have plenty of beans to carry you all fall. I feel you are a step ahead of the game just having those beans growing in the rye in the first place.

I've planted rye in early spring as a cover crop in my garden. You wanna add organic matter to your soil plant rye this early. It doesn't grow "stemmy" like it does the following spring after planting. I don't know what it is, but the plant needs to winter to mature. It basically grows into a clump. The plant will get about 16"s, and it will die, sending up new tender growth.

There are more guys planting rye earlier and earlier. Especially in northern areas where guys want maximum biomass. Nobody has called me a liar yet, maybe they will this fall because a bunch of guys were planting in May. haha

**put down....

When soybeans are already planted any suggestions on how to get the rye planted?

 

[dipper]

a 3 point spreader might be a good investment.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

**put down....

When soybeans are already planted any suggestions on how to get the rye planted?

So long as sunlight can get through the beans, just use a hand or ATV broadcast seeder and simply throw the rye seed on the top of the dirt. The germination rate won't be as good as drilling it and it will be spindly, as it will be reaching for the sun, but it's easy, doesn't waste the soybeans and will come on strong as the beans lose their leaves and the cereal rye gets the sun it needs/wants.

The key to that working is that the soybeans can't be completely canopying the dirt so no sun gets through at all. I haven't had good luck in those situations, as the cereal rye needs some sun to grow. If you have a complete canopy of lush beans, I believe you are better off waiting until the leaves start yellowing.

Jumping to another topic, I've personally had extremely bad luck throwing soybeans on top of the dirt and hoping for the best. I suspect that if you can get enough dead plant matter on top of them it could work. I've just not been able to pull it off yet, except on moist, partially shaded bottoms, and even there I need a good deal of dead plant matter to come down overtop.

I'm not saying it CAN'T work. I'd just REALLY appreciate it if whoever figures out how to get a good germ rate hares that info, as I'd love to be able to pull that off at a satisfactory level. I've done it many times with clovers, alfalfa, a bunch of brassicas, oats and cereal rye, but, except in perfect germ conditions, am never satisfied when I do it with winter peas, beans or corn...larger seed sizes.

 

[NYPLOTTER]

So long as sunlight can get through the beans, just use a hand or ATV broadcast seeder and simply throw the rye seed on the top of the dirt. The germination rate won't be as good as drilling it and it will be spindly, as it will be reaching for the sun, but it's easy, doesn't waste the soybeans and will come on strong as the beans lose their leaves and the cereal rye gets the sun it needs/wants.

The key to that working is that the soybeans can't be completely canopying the dirt so no sun gets through at all. I haven't had good luck in those situations, as the cereal rye needs some sun to grow. If you have a complete canopy of lush beans, I believe you are better off waiting until the leaves start yellowing.

Jumping to another topic, I've personally had extremely bad luck throwing soybeans on top of the dirt and hoping for the best. I suspect that if you can get enough dead plant matter on top of them it could work. I've just not been able to pull it off yet, except on moist, partially shaded bottoms, and even there I need a good deal of dead plant matter to come down overtop.

I'm not saying it CAN'T work. I'd just REALLY appreciate it if whoever figures out how to get a good germ rate hares that info, as I'd love to be able to pull that off at a satisfactory level. I've done it many times with clovers, alfalfa, a bunch of brassicas, oats and cereal rye, but, except in perfect germ conditions, am never satisfied when I do it with winter peas, beans or corn...larger seed sizes.

You just drive over the existing soybeans with an ATV/UTV and spread the rye? Doesn't that destroy a lot of soybeans?

 

[Steve Bartylla]

when the beans are big enough (say 12" or higher), I tend to "walk" out into the beans and spread them with a hand seeder. You can often get the tires between rows when even once they get higher, but it just gets to be too risky for my taste. Others do it, though. It's a balance between how much you want the rye and how much work you're willing to do.

As I said though, I don't have great luck if the beans are so thick that they form a closed canopy. Because I plant beans thick, I'm typically waiting for them to start yellowing and am doing it with a hand seeder. When I'm using an ATV seeder is when my beans generally stunk up the place anyway.

Great thread, dipper.

 

[NYPLOTTER]

when the beans are big enough (say 12" or higher), I tend to "walk" out into the beans and spread them with a hand seeder. You can often get the tires between rows when even once they get higher, but it just gets to be too risky for my taste. Others do it, though. It's a balance between how much you want the rye and how much work you're willing to do.

As I said though, I don't have great luck if the beans are so thick that they form a closed canopy. Because I plant beans thick, I'm typically waiting for them to start yellowing and am doing it with a hand seeder. When I'm using an ATV seeder is when my beans generally stunk up the place anyway.

Great thread, dipper.

This is what I have done as well. I use a Solo chest spreader which as you know it's a lot of work spreading hundreds of pounds of rye, radish and so forth. I have been looking for a better alternative.

What I did this year was leave 6' separation rows every 20/30yd in my Sanctuary Plot. I have an 8ac plot that isn't hunted and serves for feeding only. My thought is to drive these rows with a cone spreader planting. After that the thought is to plant these rows.

This should give me a nice rye field come next Spring. I will then try Dipper process by no till back into the rye and once the Soybeans are young I will roll the rye flat.

 

[dipper]

Steve is right, it's all about how much you want to baby your plots. I play rough. I've been flattening sunflowers, beans, peas, clover, sorghum, etc for some time now. Flattening them or driving on them isn't going to kill them. Flattening a warm season crop might set it back, and maybe kill a couple plants, but it is amazing how the plant turns right back up. They are porgramed to live, and they are good at it. A crimper will kill plants, I've yet to see obvious death by using a cultipacker. If you do kill a few plants, the newly planted cool season plants will be happy to fill things in.
Your not gonna get 200 bushell/ acre beans by flattening them in July. But your going to have plenty of plants live, and set seed. For me, the cost of setting the beans back, is outweighted by opportunity to add tons of more biomass and diversity.

 

[dipper]

Steve you said you haven't had much luck broadcasting soybeans? Was this in a monculture setting, or in a cocktail. It takes more moisture to get braodcasted seeds to germinate. It isn't going to work in a drought. I had two spots in a plot I needed to pick up my no till planter due to standing water. I simply started throwing some seed in the area I couldn't plant. I probably overseeded these small spots, cause I was just launching seed. I checked on the plot the other day and I paid special attention to these locations because they are for a customer. The plants filled in nicely.
I'm constantly spilling seed in my garage/driveway, and blowing it into my lawn. You basically name the seed, and it will grow in my thick lawn. Under no circumstances will I break bags of clover. Spilled it once and I'm still killing red clover a couple years later.
This is one of my major points. When your broadcasting just a monoculture, of say beans, you have a fair chance of a failed plot, than a cocktail. Plus-if your never terminating one crop as you transition to the next, success is darn near automatic.
The backbone of my management is clover. The clover is always there. It isn't cut, it doesn't need to be. It isn't seeded thick either. There needs to be room for the other plants. Everything else is basically a cycle. A cool season plant like rye is left to complete it's lifecycle. Your warm season plants are planted in the spring (into the rye and clover) to complete their lifecycle. As plants mature, they wither up, giving the next season's crop room to grow. Alot of guys are doing this already, I'm just doing it twice a year, instead of once.
One of the issues with clover is it will eventually dominate the plot. Than it gets Mr. 24d. Like an STD clover is a gift that keeps on giving. There's generally plenty of dormant seed ready to take it's place when the mature stuff is terminated. Easy peasy

 

[dipper]

Here is a general schedule, you could start any time really, but I'll start with July. Planting dates and seeding rates can be adjusted to your specific liking. This is basically how I do it, it's far from a exact science.

July (cool season crop)
56 pounds rye/ acre
50 pounds oats/ acre
2-3 pounds brassicas/ acre
20 pounds/ winter peas/ acre
2 pounds red clover/ acre

oats, brassicas, peas winter kill

May (warm season crop)
-this can be adjusted many ways. You could give it a soil building theme with plants like: surghum sudan grass, buckwheat, oats, sun flower, safflower, sun hemp, or anything else you want. Or you could taylor it towards feeding deer, ie: beans, peas. Hell you could do all of the above. There is no concrete mix. If you don't have alot of extra $, run with alot of oats and throw as much bird seed sunflower you can afford. It really doesn't matter, because the backbone-clover is really going to grow. Even if you have more of a soil building theme, the deer will still be munching on the clover. Chickory could be another option too.

July- flatten it if you want, leaving it standing is fine too, grass select herbicide if you need it
your clover has set seed, your rye from last year is fully mature, your warm season mix is doing great. Something like oats has set seed, as well. You can take advantage of the free rye or oats seed, or add more if you want. However, I'd strongly suggest
2-3 pounds/ acre brassicas
20 pounds winter peas

Your warm season crop will literally turn back up an continue growing if it was flattened. (I documented this on the QDMA forum last year). It will eventually set seed and die. Obviously seed from the beans with be attractive to deer. Don't forget the pea and sunflower seeds too, deer love them.


It might appear more complicated than it is. It really is simple. Like I said, alot of guys are seeding a cool season crop into their warm season. I'm just adding things to the rye and clover in the spring, and not cutting things down.

 

[NYPLOTTER]

Here is a general schedule, you could start any time really, but I'll start with July. These dates and seeding rates can be adjusted to your specific liking. This is basically how I do it, it's not a science, however.

July (cool season crop)
56 pounds rye/ acre
50 pounds oats/ acre
2-3 pounds brassicas/ acre
20 pounds/ winter peas/ acre
2 pounds red clover/ acre

oats, brassicas, peas winter kill

May (warm season crop)
-this can be adjusted many ways. You could give it a soil building theme: surghum sudan grass, buckwheat, oats, sun flower, safflower, sun hemp, or anything else you want. Or you could taylor it towards feeding deer: beans, peas. Hell you could do all of the above. There is no concrete mix. If you don't have alot of extra $, run with alot of oats and throw as much bird seed sunflower you can afford. It really doesn't matter, because the backbone-clover is really going to grow.

July- flatten it if you want, grass select herbicide if you need it
your clover has set seed, your rye from last year is fully mature, your warm season mix is doing great. Something like oats has set seed. You can takeadvantage of the free rye or oats seed, or add more if you want. However, I'd strongly suggest
2-3 pounds/ acre brassicas
20 pounds winter peas

Your warm season crop will literally turn back up an continue growing if it was flattened. (I documented this on the QDMA forum last year). It will eventually set seed and die. Meanwhile what you planted in July thrives.


It might appear more complicated than it is. It really is simple. Like I said, alot of guys are seeding a cool season crop into their warm season. I'm just adding things to the rye and clover in the spring.

Got it! Thanks for the additional information.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

Dipper,

They were monoculture plots. I'm all for the push for diverse plantings and no-till or surface broadcasting seeds, which is part of why I love this thread. That said, I do about 70% of plots as monocultures (or close to monoculture...strains of clover and alfalfa combined I consider closer to a monoculture, despite their really being 4 lines of clover and 1 alfalfa...Beans and corn are planted as monoculture, but I top seed plantings into many of them in late summer. I still consider them closer to monocultures, though). Around 30% are truly diverse plantings. Between all the properties I manage, I've got around 300 acres of food plots I'm dealing with. The sad truth for the way I do it anyway, Mono takes less work. In the case of clover/alfalfa, plant once and walk away, except for a spraying and 1 cutting a year. More and more, I've been able to work out great deals with the renting farmers to plant the corn or beans I want as they're putting in their own crops.

The 30% of fall plots I do are diverse plantings, though not as diverse in height, as they're fall plots. This year I'll be experimenting with 4 brassicas, radishes, sugar beats, cereal rye and bin oats mix. I may toss a little clover in them, as well.

I can say that I shifted almost 100% to no-till on all the clovers/alfalfa & fall mixes I plant, as well as any grain plots I personally plant. The corn/beans are drilled, but all the rest is top seeded.

 

[chummer]

Pin down? Ya a cultipacker, but it has to be mature. I've seen guys using timber and 4x4s too.

If your beans are looking really good inside that rye or you don't want to set them back, you can leave them too. (This is what I mean not thinking like a farmer-he needs clean soybeans, we don't) That standing rye will protect from browse and also make deer feel safer feeding in it. You don't have to flatten the rye, especially if you have plenty of beans to carry you all fall. I feel you are a step ahead of the game just having those beans growing in the rye in the first place.

I've planted rye in early spring as a cover crop in my garden. You wanna add organic matter to your soil plant rye this early. It doesn't grow "stemmy" like it does the following spring after planting. I don't know what it is, but the plant needs to winter to mature. It basically grows into a clump. The plant will get about 16"s, and it will die, sending up new tender growth.

There are more guys planting rye earlier and earlier. Especially in northern areas where guys want maximum biomass. Nobody has called me a liar yet, maybe they will this fall because a bunch of guys were planting in May. haha

I drank the Dipper kool-aide last year and planted winter rye July 4th, it was all gone by December.

 

[James P. Bipps]

Chummer,

So did you plant just rye? When will you planting this year?

 

[chummer]

Chummer,

So did you plant just rye? When will you planting this year?

I planted rye and Alice clover. I hope to do my plantings next week.

 

[chummer]

Dipper, I am hoping to broadcast brassicas into my standing rye next week. The problem I see is the clover is 18" high in the rye. Do I just spread the seed then mow the plot? I am also assuming that the rye has to turn brown first.

 

[dipper]

It depends on how thick it is. Sounds like red clover with that height. The nice thing with red clover is you can flatten it, but I've never tried it with a white. Flattening that clover helps set it a back, but it won't kill it. The upper portion of the clover will turn back up and only get about 6"s tall after a few weeks(It's really neat). Along with the rye, the clover will literally be a living mulch for your cool season mix you want to plant. Another big bonus is, the deer will be feeding on your plot right after you leave.
It can definitely be cut too. I'm don't want to cut mine because I still want to protect my warm season crop. By cutting it I will also be cutting my warm season crop.
You don't have to do it exactly like me. I believe the diversity is the important thing along with protecting and building the soil.