Best no-spray foot plots?

[neonomad]

I don’t know if I’ll have the time and willpower to do this every year but in 2022 with the intention of avoiding tilling and chemicals I [1] rolled standing grains from the fall food plots down over buckwheat seed early June, and then ran the disc over that perpendicular to ensure a good kill since I don’t have a crimper (this is the picture) then [2] I think it was the last week of July I rolled the buckwheat down over brassica seed, then [3] broadcast a little more brassicas late August and grains (rye and wheat) in September. At some point I added oats but can’t remember what layer that was. It took some planning but the plots did great and the deer have been hammering em in the late season. So the planning for this started in fall 2021, and just like any effort the rains do need to cooperate. Worst case scenario the discs can save you with some light tilling. Corn and beans is another story, I don’t know how to pull that off!

One issue I see is I’m putting a lot of carbon down, so nitrogen might be an issue… but if I add too many annual clovers in the fall mix I’m not sure how well they’ll terminate in the June squash process.

 

[omicron1792]

I don’t know if I’ll have the time and willpower to do this every year but in 2022 with the intention of avoiding tilling and chemicals I [1] rolled standing grains from the fall food plots down over buckwheat seed early June, and then ran the disc over that perpendicular to ensure a good kill since I don’t have a crimper (this is the picture) then [2] I think it was the last week of July I rolled the buckwheat down over brassica seed, then [3] broadcast a little more brassicas late August and grains (rye and wheat) in September. At some point I added oats but can’t remember what layer that was. It took some planning but the plots did great and the deer have been hammering em in the late season. So the planning for this started in fall 2021, and just like any effort the rains do need to cooperate. Worst case scenario the discs can save you with some light tilling. Corn and beans is another story, I don’t know how to pull that off!

One issue I see is I’m putting a lot of carbon down, so nitrogen might be an issue… but if I add too many annual clovers in the fall mix I’m not sure how well they’ll terminate in the June squash process.
View attachment 49252

You did good my man.

 

[neonomad]

You did good my man.

Thanks, there’s not one person in my circle that understands the process, including the couple other guys that hunt the farm with me, so feels good to share a success story with people who get it!

 

[omicron1792]

I don’t know if I’ll have the time and willpower to do this every year but in 2022 with the intention of avoiding tilling and chemicals I [1] rolled standing grains from the fall food plots down over buckwheat seed early June, and then ran the disc over that perpendicular to ensure a good kill since I don’t have a crimper (this is the picture) then [2] I think it was the last week of July I rolled the buckwheat down over brassica seed, then [3] broadcast a little more brassicas late August and grains (rye and wheat) in September. At some point I added oats but can’t remember what layer that was. It took some planning but the plots did great and the deer have been hammering em in the late season. So the planning for this started in fall 2021, and just like any effort the rains do need to cooperate. Worst case scenario the discs can save you with some light tilling. Corn and beans is another story, I don’t know how to pull that off!

One issue I see is I’m putting a lot of carbon down, so nitrogen might be an issue… but if I add too many annual clovers in the fall mix I’m not sure how well they’ll terminate in the June squash process.
View attachment 49252

Use an early seeding clover like crimson. AU sunrise will flower early and would dead by June. That perpendicular discing would take care of any that’s left.

 

[neonomad]

Use an early seeding clover like crimson. AU sunrise will flower early and would dead by June. That perpendicular discing would take care of any that’s left.

Awesome, thank you I will do this.

 

[Buckhunter10]

Hey man - great looking plot and happy to see you concerned with the carbon to nitrogen ratios. I agree. Adding crimson in fall will help and terminates relatively easy. Also you could add a winter pea in fall so you have a legume, along side your carbon filled planting. Adding oats is a good thing as they tend to die off and break down far faster than other grains (such as rye).

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Nice work @neonomad!

I had seen others be successful with fall planted crimson clover in the northern midwest, is that pretty common as far north as zone 3b/4a to get crimson through the winter and growing in the spring or is it a crap shoot? Would have been a good winter to try because of the early heavy layer of insulating snow we got that will probably be here until spring!

Maybe I'll stick with crimson and fixation in the fall blend this year to make sure it's easy to kill in next year's planting.

 

[neonomad]

Nice work @neonomad!

I had seen others be successful with fall planted crimson clover in the northern midwest, is that pretty common as far north as zone 3b/4a to get crimson through the winter and growing in the spring or is it a crap shoot? Would have been a good winter to try because of the early heavy layer of insulating snow we got that will probably be here until spring!

Maybe I'll stick with crimson and fixation in the fall blend this year to make sure it's easy to kill in next year's planting.

I really don’t know, because - although we’re pretty close to Lake Erie in the northeast Ohio lake effect snowbelt - surprisingly that works out to be a zone 6, 5 at worst… here the crimson has come on strong in the spring every year I’ve planted it.

@Buckhunter10 in the past I haven’t been too calculated in my broadcast rates for the winter greens but yes I think it’s time to take better notes and run some experiments to see what results in the friendliest roll down layer come spring… one thing I did do this past year is dial back the rye a bit and go higher with the wheat and oats for the reasons you mention. Thanks! Im also interested to see how helpful or not the rolled down plants from 2022 are come this spring, in terms of good organic matter vs problems with seed to soil contact, I don’t know what to expect as far as how decayed they’ll be.

 

[Buckhunter10]

I really don’t know, because - although we’re pretty close to Lake Erie in the northeast Ohio lake effect snowbelt - surprisingly that works out to be a zone 6, 5 at worst… here the crimson has come on strong in the spring every year I’ve planted it.

@Buckhunter10 in the past I haven’t been too calculated in my broadcast rates for the winter greens but yes I think it’s time to take better notes and run some experiments to see what results in the friendliest roll down layer come spring… one thing I did do this past year is dial back the rye a bit and go higher with the wheat and oats for the reasons you mention. Thanks! Im also interested to see how helpful or not the rolled down plants from 2022 are come this spring, in terms of good organic matter vs problems with seed to soil contact, I don’t know what to expect as far as how decayed they’ll be.

The decay rate is relative to microbial stimulation and balance you have given the system, of parts carbon to nitrogen. Also, note as systems progress, they tend to lend themselves towards more fungal-dominated systems - which in turn allows for higher lignin-filled crops to be digested, more efficiently.

If they are not decaying enough, you will have nutrients tied up in the "thatch". This is caused by too much C and not enough N. You can look to stimulate this with more legumes in the mixes, N fertilizer (guessing you don't want to do that), or even foliar/liquid stimulants like fish fert - that will act as a light N source but also help to cycle the nutrients from one planting to the next. You highlight why I am not a fan of massive amounts of rye grain being planted (I've seen some using 200 lbs per acre), specifically in no-till situations.

I am happy to try to help in, anyway I am able! Hope this above is interesting if nothing else.

Albert

 

[Wind Gypsy]

The decay rate is relative to microbial stimulation and balance you have given the system, of parts carbon to nitrogen. Also, note as systems progress, they tend to lend themselves towards more fungal-dominated systems - which in turn allows for higher lignin-filled crops to be digested, more efficiently.

If they are not decaying enough, you will have nutrients tied up in the "thatch". This is caused by too much C and not enough N. You can look to stimulate this with more legumes in the mixes, N fertilizer (guessing you don't want to do that), or even foliar/liquid stimulants like fish fert - that will act as a light N source but also help to cycle the nutrients from one planting to the next. You highlight why I am not a fan of massive amounts of rye grain being planted (I've seen some using 200 lbs per acre), specifically in no-till situations.

I am happy to try to help in, anyway I am able! Hope this above is interesting if nothing else.

Albert

I went pretty heavy on the rye last year as i'm trying to establish new plots in hay ground, some of which was nearly all reed canary grass. I think I drilled about 75# acre in one spot and broadcast about 125# acre in another that was drilled with oats, beans, peas, brassicas, and clover almost 2 months prior (although much was damaged by herbicide residual). Does it make more sense to go heavier on the rye when trying to outcompete weeds in new plots like I'm doing?

 

[Buckhunter10]

I went pretty heavy on the rye last year as i'm trying to establish new plots in hay ground, some of which was nearly all reed canary grass. I think I drilled about 75# acre in one spot and broadcast about 125# acre in another that was drilled with oats, beans, peas, brassicas, and clover almost 2 months prior (although much was damaged by herbicide residual). Does it make more sense to go heavier on the rye when trying to outcompete weeds in new plots like I'm doing?

Yes it does! Also what aligns with growers goals. So if you want to go heavy with rye - are you ok using an organic N source if you notice nutrient tie up? What about a conservation tillage like VT to chop the rye up? Assuming no herbicide was used to terminate - but again is that an option? Do we want to flail mow it off or roll it?

All these can have some impact on the ability for the grower to be successful. I rarely recommend going too heavy on seed but there are times where it can be helpful, assuming we have a plan thereafter.

Hope this helps.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Yes it does! Also what aligns with growers goals. So if you want to go heavy with rye - are you ok using an organic N source if you notice nutrient tie up? What about a conservation tillage like VT to chop the rye up? Assuming no herbicide was used to terminate - but again is that an option? Do we want to flail mow it off or roll it?

All these can have some impact on the ability for the grower to be successful. I rarely recommend going too heavy on seed but there are times where it can be helpful, assuming we have a plan thereafter.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the confirmation. I'm curious about organic N source options?

I'm not a purist on any methods. I'll probably spray everything with Gly this year and then drill but it would be nice to plan to plant blends that will die naturally or easily be terminated with a flail mower the following year if I can stay far enough ahead of weed competition. Don't need perfectly clean plots, just don't want planted species to be significantly outcompeted.

Not sure on "vertical tillage" definition, like a subsoiler or chisel plow? I do have poorly draining soils so I had been wanting to learn more about use of a subsoiler. I have a compact tractor that's 4WD, 37HP and about 6k lbs with the loader so wouldn't be able to handle much for serious tillage implements. Only own a tandom disc for now but a single shank subsoiler is something that interests me. My Esch no-till drill should in theory be able to get seed in the ground through significant residue.

 

[Buckhunter10]

Thanks for the confirmation. I'm curious about organic N source options?

I'm not a purist on any methods. I'll probably spray everything with Gly this year and then drill but it would be nice to plan to plant blends that will die naturally or easily be terminated with a flail mower the following year if I can stay far enough ahead of weed competition. Don't need perfectly clean plots, just don't want planted species to be significantly outcompeted.

Not sure on "vertical tillage" definition, like a subsoiler or chisel plow? I do have poorly draining soils so I had been wanting to learn more about use of a subsoiler. I have a compact tractor that's 4WD, 37HP and about 6k lbs with the loader so wouldn't be able to handle much for serious tillage implements. Only own a tandom disc for now but a single shank subsoiler is something that interests me. My Esch no-till drill should in theory be able to get seed in the ground through significant residue.

Hey man so generally speaking organic N is any nitrogen that is derived from organic sources (proteins/amino acids breaking down). Now as N goes through the nitrogen cycle - it is converted to various types of Nitrogen. Typically landing on nitrate where it is assimilated by the plants - assuming there is a root there for it and a need by said plant. Also your microbial system is using N to help digest the carbon sources in soil. Too much N and our microbes look for carbon - if we don’t have carbon for them, they can literally consume our own OM (opposite of what most want!).

All that to say organic N sources when speaking directly about fert. Is typically N that is in an organic product that needs to be broken down and then converted by soil microbes. Milorganite for example. This is also often expressed as slow release N. Blood meal, fish fert, etc. would all be examples of this “organic” source.

As for vertical tillage - it’s a bit hard to visualize but if you Google VT Great Plains some great vidoes show up (grander scale) but same idea. These machines help to chop up the residue without breaking the soils - therefore reducing fungal damage and oxidizing impacts.

Similarly we can do this with a disc for foodplots. Just need to keep it from sinking and mostly just to “chop” up the residue.

These are all parts of residue management - as the growers sees fit.

I hope this helps!!

 

[Camptravis]

Sorry if i am reviving an old thread, but I think I have a good potential option that will fit your food plotting context. Your question of chemical free food plots is something I've been researching and experimenting with for quite awhile. Assuming you are somewhere in the Eastern US I believe that adapting Colin Seis's "pasture cropping" concept to your food plots could be a winning strategy. Since your goal is mainly a winter food source for the deer in your area I would start in year one by planting a diverse mix of perennial cool season forbs that stay green into the fall and winter. Some big ones I've been experimenting with in my area that fit this purpose would be small burnet, blue flax, crownvetch and cicer milkvetch. These usually will stay lush green all winter in all, but the harshest winter climate areas. Some others that may work well are forage chicory, forage plantain and Aberlasting clover as well as any other perennial clover that stays green after hard frosts. For this mix I would prepare an area and broadcast or drill it in during late fall. The next spring these perennials will start to grow but you will likely experience weed pressure this first year. If weeds get more than 6 inches above the Perennial mix in over 50% over the food plot I would clip (mow) the plot to just at the average height of the Perennial mix. You may need to do this several times during the first growing season, but doing so should prevent the weeds from shading out the Perennial mix. That fall the Perennial mix should be fairly lush and will produce a good amount of feed for deer. In spring of year 2 you will get an explosion from your perennial mix and a lot of biomass will be produced. Then after your average last spring frost I would, mow, high density graze or hay your plot and drill in corn at a fairly low seed rate for corn in your area. However you manage your perennial's your goal will be to weaken them enough to allow the corn to germinate and establish. Then if this was successful your corn should take off and grow into the summer and your perennials will form a low understory under the corn. Then in the fall your corn will die and allow light down to your perennials. And then during that 2nd winter you will have a field of corn with an understory of lush greens to feed the deer all winter.

 

[omicron1792]

Sorry if i am reviving an old thread, but I think I have a good potential option that will fit your food plotting context. Your question of chemical free food plots is something I've been researching and experimenting with for quite awhile. Assuming you are somewhere in the Eastern US I believe that adapting Colin Seis's "pasture cropping" concept to your food plots could be a winning strategy. Since your goal is mainly a winter food source for the deer in your area I would start in year one by planting a diverse mix of perennial cool season forbs that stay green into the fall and winter. Some big ones I've been experimenting with in my area that fit this purpose would be small burnet, blue flax, crownvetch and cicer milkvetch. These usually will stay lush green all winter in all, but the harshest winter climate areas. Some others that may work well are forage chicory, forage plantain and Aberlasting clover as well as any other perennial clover that stays green after hard frosts. For this mix I would prepare an area and broadcast or drill it in during late fall. The next spring these perennials will start to grow but you will likely experience weed pressure this first year. If weeds get more than 6 inches above the Perennial mix in over 50% over the food plot I would clip (mow) the plot to just at the average height of the Perennial mix. You may need to do this several times during the first growing season, but doing so should prevent the weeds from shading out the Perennial mix. That fall the Perennial mix should be fairly lush and will produce a good amount of feed for deer. In spring of year 2 you will get an explosion from your perennial mix and a lot of biomass will be produced. Then after your average last spring frost I would, mow, high density graze or hay your plot and drill in corn at a fairly low seed rate for corn in your area. However you manage your perennial's your goal will be to weaken them enough to allow the corn to germinate and establish. Then if this was successful your corn should take off and grow into the summer and your perennials will form a low understory under the corn. Then in the fall your corn will die and allow light down to your perennials. And then during that 2nd winter you will have a field of corn with an understory of lush greens to feed the deer all winter.

That sounds like a lot of moving parts.

 

[omicron1792]

Sorry if i am reviving an old thread, but I think I have a good potential option that will fit your food plotting context. Your question of chemical free food plots is something I've been researching and experimenting with for quite awhile. Assuming you are somewhere in the Eastern US I believe that adapting Colin Seis's "pasture cropping" concept to your food plots could be a winning strategy. Since your goal is mainly a winter food source for the deer in your area I would start in year one by planting a diverse mix of perennial cool season forbs that stay green into the fall and winter. Some big ones I've been experimenting with in my area that fit this purpose would be small burnet, blue flax, crownvetch and cicer milkvetch. These usually will stay lush green all winter in all, but the harshest winter climate areas. Some others that may work well are forage chicory, forage plantain and Aberlasting clover as well as any other perennial clover that stays green after hard frosts. For this mix I would prepare an area and broadcast or drill it in during late fall. The next spring these perennials will start to grow but you will likely experience weed pressure this first year. If weeds get more than 6 inches above the Perennial mix in over 50% over the food plot I would clip (mow) the plot to just at the average height of the Perennial mix. You may need to do this several times during the first growing season, but doing so should prevent the weeds from shading out the Perennial mix. That fall the Perennial mix should be fairly lush and will produce a good amount of feed for deer. In spring of year 2 you will get an explosion from your perennial mix and a lot of biomass will be produced. Then after your average last spring frost I would, mow, high density graze or hay your plot and drill in corn at a fairly low seed rate for corn in your area. However you manage your perennial's your goal will be to weaken them enough to allow the corn to germinate and establish. Then if this was successful your corn should take off and grow into the summer and your perennials will form a low understory under the corn. Then in the fall your corn will die and allow light down to your perennials. And then during that 2nd winter you will have a field of corn with an understory of lush greens to feed the deer all winter.

That sounds like a lot of moving parts.

 

[bigboreblr]

No-spray sounds nice, but I think it's work. Spraying makes it so much easier. I think what is easily viable is a low spray situation. Initial weed supression and spray every other or third year.

Tillage is likely worse for soil health than spraying. However, some spots the soil gets compacted to the point where you need to till every few years.

Crown vetch is a good choice. I work for a power company, the right of way leading to the plant has grasses, crown vetch, and some shrubs. I am sure they spray at some point here n there, but very little is done and the deer are all over it.

 

[farmlegend]

No-spray sounds nice, but I think it's work. Spraying makes it so much easier. I think what is easily viable is a low spray situation. Initial weed supression and spray every other or third year.

Tillage is likely worse for soil health than spraying. However, some spots the soil gets compacted to the point where you need to till every few years.

Crown vetch is a good choice. I work for a power company, the right of way leading to the plant has grasses, crown vetch, and some shrubs. I am sure they spray at some point here n there, but very little is done and the deer are all over it.

Good comment and cosign judicious herbicide use being less damaging than tillage.

I’m in year three of multi-species cover cropping on nine acres, clayish soils, southern Michigan. Planted with no-till drill, formerly heavily degraded rowcrop ground. Biggest nemesis is invading coolseason grasses. Clethodim/crop oil after greenup and before planting. Very wet growing season this year, lots of CSG’s still showed up this month.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

The crown vetch creeping in our yard seems like a hard SOB to rid yourselves of much like @SD51555's foe hairy vetch.