Best no-spray foot plots?

[neonomad]

I don’t know if I’ll have the time and willpower to do this every year but in 2022 with the intention of avoiding tilling and chemicals I [1] rolled standing grains from the fall food plots down over buckwheat seed early June, and then ran the disc over that perpendicular to ensure a good kill since I don’t have a crimper (this is the picture) then [2] I think it was the last week of July I rolled the buckwheat down over brassica seed, then [3] broadcast a little more brassicas late August and grains (rye and wheat) in September. At some point I added oats but can’t remember what layer that was. It took some planning but the plots did great and the deer have been hammering em in the late season. So the planning for this started in fall 2021, and just like any effort the rains do need to cooperate. Worst case scenario the discs can save you with some light tilling. Corn and beans is another story, I don’t know how to pull that off!

One issue I see is I’m putting a lot of carbon down, so nitrogen might be an issue… but if I add too many annual clovers in the fall mix I’m not sure how well they’ll terminate in the June squash process.

 

[omicron1792]

I don’t know if I’ll have the time and willpower to do this every year but in 2022 with the intention of avoiding tilling and chemicals I [1] rolled standing grains from the fall food plots down over buckwheat seed early June, and then ran the disc over that perpendicular to ensure a good kill since I don’t have a crimper (this is the picture) then [2] I think it was the last week of July I rolled the buckwheat down over brassica seed, then [3] broadcast a little more brassicas late August and grains (rye and wheat) in September. At some point I added oats but can’t remember what layer that was. It took some planning but the plots did great and the deer have been hammering em in the late season. So the planning for this started in fall 2021, and just like any effort the rains do need to cooperate. Worst case scenario the discs can save you with some light tilling. Corn and beans is another story, I don’t know how to pull that off!

One issue I see is I’m putting a lot of carbon down, so nitrogen might be an issue… but if I add too many annual clovers in the fall mix I’m not sure how well they’ll terminate in the June squash process.
View attachment 49252

You did good my man.

 

[neonomad]

You did good my man.

Thanks, there’s not one person in my circle that understands the process, including the couple other guys that hunt the farm with me, so feels good to share a success story with people who get it!

 

[omicron1792]

I don’t know if I’ll have the time and willpower to do this every year but in 2022 with the intention of avoiding tilling and chemicals I [1] rolled standing grains from the fall food plots down over buckwheat seed early June, and then ran the disc over that perpendicular to ensure a good kill since I don’t have a crimper (this is the picture) then [2] I think it was the last week of July I rolled the buckwheat down over brassica seed, then [3] broadcast a little more brassicas late August and grains (rye and wheat) in September. At some point I added oats but can’t remember what layer that was. It took some planning but the plots did great and the deer have been hammering em in the late season. So the planning for this started in fall 2021, and just like any effort the rains do need to cooperate. Worst case scenario the discs can save you with some light tilling. Corn and beans is another story, I don’t know how to pull that off!

One issue I see is I’m putting a lot of carbon down, so nitrogen might be an issue… but if I add too many annual clovers in the fall mix I’m not sure how well they’ll terminate in the June squash process.
View attachment 49252

Use an early seeding clover like crimson. AU sunrise will flower early and would dead by June. That perpendicular discing would take care of any that’s left.

 

[neonomad]

Use an early seeding clover like crimson. AU sunrise will flower early and would dead by June. That perpendicular discing would take care of any that’s left.

Awesome, thank you I will do this.

 

[Buckhunter10]

Hey man - great looking plot and happy to see you concerned with the carbon to nitrogen ratios. I agree. Adding crimson in fall will help and terminates relatively easy. Also you could add a winter pea in fall so you have a legume, along side your carbon filled planting. Adding oats is a good thing as they tend to die off and break down far faster than other grains (such as rye).

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Nice work @neonomad!

I had seen others be successful with fall planted crimson clover in the northern midwest, is that pretty common as far north as zone 3b/4a to get crimson through the winter and growing in the spring or is it a crap shoot? Would have been a good winter to try because of the early heavy layer of insulating snow we got that will probably be here until spring!

Maybe I'll stick with crimson and fixation in the fall blend this year to make sure it's easy to kill in next year's planting.

 

[neonomad]

Nice work @neonomad!

I had seen others be successful with fall planted crimson clover in the northern midwest, is that pretty common as far north as zone 3b/4a to get crimson through the winter and growing in the spring or is it a crap shoot? Would have been a good winter to try because of the early heavy layer of insulating snow we got that will probably be here until spring!

Maybe I'll stick with crimson and fixation in the fall blend this year to make sure it's easy to kill in next year's planting.

I really don’t know, because - although we’re pretty close to Lake Erie in the northeast Ohio lake effect snowbelt - surprisingly that works out to be a zone 6, 5 at worst… here the crimson has come on strong in the spring every year I’ve planted it.

@Buckhunter10 in the past I haven’t been too calculated in my broadcast rates for the winter greens but yes I think it’s time to take better notes and run some experiments to see what results in the friendliest roll down layer come spring… one thing I did do this past year is dial back the rye a bit and go higher with the wheat and oats for the reasons you mention. Thanks! Im also interested to see how helpful or not the rolled down plants from 2022 are come this spring, in terms of good organic matter vs problems with seed to soil contact, I don’t know what to expect as far as how decayed they’ll be.

 

[Buckhunter10]

I really don’t know, because - although we’re pretty close to Lake Erie in the northeast Ohio lake effect snowbelt - surprisingly that works out to be a zone 6, 5 at worst… here the crimson has come on strong in the spring every year I’ve planted it.

@Buckhunter10 in the past I haven’t been too calculated in my broadcast rates for the winter greens but yes I think it’s time to take better notes and run some experiments to see what results in the friendliest roll down layer come spring… one thing I did do this past year is dial back the rye a bit and go higher with the wheat and oats for the reasons you mention. Thanks! Im also interested to see how helpful or not the rolled down plants from 2022 are come this spring, in terms of good organic matter vs problems with seed to soil contact, I don’t know what to expect as far as how decayed they’ll be.

The decay rate is relative to microbial stimulation and balance you have given the system, of parts carbon to nitrogen. Also, note as systems progress, they tend to lend themselves towards more fungal-dominated systems - which in turn allows for higher lignin-filled crops to be digested, more efficiently.

If they are not decaying enough, you will have nutrients tied up in the "thatch". This is caused by too much C and not enough N. You can look to stimulate this with more legumes in the mixes, N fertilizer (guessing you don't want to do that), or even foliar/liquid stimulants like fish fert - that will act as a light N source but also help to cycle the nutrients from one planting to the next. You highlight why I am not a fan of massive amounts of rye grain being planted (I've seen some using 200 lbs per acre), specifically in no-till situations.

I am happy to try to help in, anyway I am able! Hope this above is interesting if nothing else.

Albert

 

[Wind Gypsy]

The decay rate is relative to microbial stimulation and balance you have given the system, of parts carbon to nitrogen. Also, note as systems progress, they tend to lend themselves towards more fungal-dominated systems - which in turn allows for higher lignin-filled crops to be digested, more efficiently.

If they are not decaying enough, you will have nutrients tied up in the "thatch". This is caused by too much C and not enough N. You can look to stimulate this with more legumes in the mixes, N fertilizer (guessing you don't want to do that), or even foliar/liquid stimulants like fish fert - that will act as a light N source but also help to cycle the nutrients from one planting to the next. You highlight why I am not a fan of massive amounts of rye grain being planted (I've seen some using 200 lbs per acre), specifically in no-till situations.

I am happy to try to help in, anyway I am able! Hope this above is interesting if nothing else.

Albert

I went pretty heavy on the rye last year as i'm trying to establish new plots in hay ground, some of which was nearly all reed canary grass. I think I drilled about 75# acre in one spot and broadcast about 125# acre in another that was drilled with oats, beans, peas, brassicas, and clover almost 2 months prior (although much was damaged by herbicide residual). Does it make more sense to go heavier on the rye when trying to outcompete weeds in new plots like I'm doing?

 

[Buckhunter10]

I went pretty heavy on the rye last year as i'm trying to establish new plots in hay ground, some of which was nearly all reed canary grass. I think I drilled about 75# acre in one spot and broadcast about 125# acre in another that was drilled with oats, beans, peas, brassicas, and clover almost 2 months prior (although much was damaged by herbicide residual). Does it make more sense to go heavier on the rye when trying to outcompete weeds in new plots like I'm doing?

Yes it does! Also what aligns with growers goals. So if you want to go heavy with rye - are you ok using an organic N source if you notice nutrient tie up? What about a conservation tillage like VT to chop the rye up? Assuming no herbicide was used to terminate - but again is that an option? Do we want to flail mow it off or roll it?

All these can have some impact on the ability for the grower to be successful. I rarely recommend going too heavy on seed but there are times where it can be helpful, assuming we have a plan thereafter.

Hope this helps.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Yes it does! Also what aligns with growers goals. So if you want to go heavy with rye - are you ok using an organic N source if you notice nutrient tie up? What about a conservation tillage like VT to chop the rye up? Assuming no herbicide was used to terminate - but again is that an option? Do we want to flail mow it off or roll it?

All these can have some impact on the ability for the grower to be successful. I rarely recommend going too heavy on seed but there are times where it can be helpful, assuming we have a plan thereafter.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the confirmation. I'm curious about organic N source options?

I'm not a purist on any methods. I'll probably spray everything with Gly this year and then drill but it would be nice to plan to plant blends that will die naturally or easily be terminated with a flail mower the following year if I can stay far enough ahead of weed competition. Don't need perfectly clean plots, just don't want planted species to be significantly outcompeted.

Not sure on "vertical tillage" definition, like a subsoiler or chisel plow? I do have poorly draining soils so I had been wanting to learn more about use of a subsoiler. I have a compact tractor that's 4WD, 37HP and about 6k lbs with the loader so wouldn't be able to handle much for serious tillage implements. Only own a tandom disc for now but a single shank subsoiler is something that interests me. My Esch no-till drill should in theory be able to get seed in the ground through significant residue.

 

[Buckhunter10]

Thanks for the confirmation. I'm curious about organic N source options?

I'm not a purist on any methods. I'll probably spray everything with Gly this year and then drill but it would be nice to plan to plant blends that will die naturally or easily be terminated with a flail mower the following year if I can stay far enough ahead of weed competition. Don't need perfectly clean plots, just don't want planted species to be significantly outcompeted.

Not sure on "vertical tillage" definition, like a subsoiler or chisel plow? I do have poorly draining soils so I had been wanting to learn more about use of a subsoiler. I have a compact tractor that's 4WD, 37HP and about 6k lbs with the loader so wouldn't be able to handle much for serious tillage implements. Only own a tandom disc for now but a single shank subsoiler is something that interests me. My Esch no-till drill should in theory be able to get seed in the ground through significant residue.

Hey man so generally speaking organic N is any nitrogen that is derived from organic sources (proteins/amino acids breaking down). Now as N goes through the nitrogen cycle - it is converted to various types of Nitrogen. Typically landing on nitrate where it is assimilated by the plants - assuming there is a root there for it and a need by said plant. Also your microbial system is using N to help digest the carbon sources in soil. Too much N and our microbes look for carbon - if we don’t have carbon for them, they can literally consume our own OM (opposite of what most want!).

All that to say organic N sources when speaking directly about fert. Is typically N that is in an organic product that needs to be broken down and then converted by soil microbes. Milorganite for example. This is also often expressed as slow release N. Blood meal, fish fert, etc. would all be examples of this “organic” source.

As for vertical tillage - it’s a bit hard to visualize but if you Google VT Great Plains some great vidoes show up (grander scale) but same idea. These machines help to chop up the residue without breaking the soils - therefore reducing fungal damage and oxidizing impacts.

Similarly we can do this with a disc for foodplots. Just need to keep it from sinking and mostly just to “chop” up the residue.

These are all parts of residue management - as the growers sees fit.

I hope this helps!!