Starting Over.

[SD51555]

I was just looking at my seeds.....and at the Welters site. Was thinking I may do some Fixation Balansa Clover instead of more YSC. Also considering Frosty Berseem.....but I may have enough going on now. I have not seen any trace of the YSC and do not have any left over seed. I have heard good stuff about the Fixation Balansa. What say you?

Also want to add some (3#/a) chicory, (5#/a) medium red, (2#/A) Alice white with my (112#/a) cereal rye in Sept. I feel I'm keeping my seed bank full of the good stuff.

I haven't seen any clover that can match balansa for edible tonnage over the summer. It was hitting over 5' tall where it had support in the my road plot. I'd say 36" is average on its own. For us summer forage is about as useful as turd flavored jelly beans, but the biomass is very good for the soil. Mine has gotten to the point that it reseeds if left to dry off into early August. The one hard part is, once it's there, it seems to get dense quick, so drilling into it and getting something up through might be hard. Broadcasting in sure didn't work for me.

I'd still try one more pound of YSC in your poorest spots. But I'd broadcast it. The place where sweet clover does the best is in a compacted gravel shoulder of a paved road. I have to think it'll go at your place. The link is right here. It's calling out to you, "Foggy, give me one more chance. I'm just a little one pound bag but I could change everything in those tough to grow spots."

Sweet Clover (Yellow Blossom) - OMRI Inoculated

Sweet clovers warm weather biomass production is only rivaled by alfalfa of all forage legumes. With careful management, sweet clover provides an excellent forage for livestock. Sweet clovers first year of biomass reaches 18-24" tall but provides forage of equivalent quality and palatability as...

store.greencover.com

And don't forget the chicory.

Might as well get a ten pound bag of flax if you're ordering YSC.

Flax (Brown)

Flax can be utilized in many small grain and corn rotations as a potential cover crop or fiber/oil crop. Compared to other common crops, overall nutrient demand is lower and very little nitrogen is needed. Vegetative growth normally requires 50 days before flowering occurs but after this...

store.greencover.com

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Not really. I took one of a clump that developed on one of the side "skids" because i was running the front of the mower too low for a while and you can kind of see what it looks like beyond it. It laid down a hell of a mat of biomass. In general, it is very evenly distributed. If I didn't have the front of the mower up a bit the skids on the side start grabbing a pile of mulch so there were a few bunches of mulch but mostly very smooth looking.
View attachment 66628

One week later pics @Brian662


A hint that the rye and clover was viable @Skeeter

 

[SD51555]

Great looking mower there fella, and the cut looks just as good.

I picked up a rye head and a trit head before I came home. I have them rag dolling now. I’m certain the trit was viable, I even found some seeds germinating on that stalk. The herd of turkeys I ran into yesterday are gonna have a hay day with that stuff laying on the ground.

Maybe they can scratch up my thatch a little?


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[Brian662]

One week later pics @Brian662
View attachment 66972

A hint that the rye and clover was viable @Skeeter
View attachment 66973View attachment 66974

Incredible how much everything is already poking through that thatch layer. Looks great!

 

[Foggy47]

I haven't seen any clover that can match balansa for edible tonnage over the summer. It was hitting over 5' tall where it had support in the my road plot. I'd say 36" is average on its own. For us summer forage is about as useful as turd flavored jelly beans, but the biomass is very good for the soil. Mine has gotten to the point that it reseeds if left to dry off into early August. The one hard part is, once it's there, it seems to get dense quick, so drilling into it and getting something up through might be hard. Broadcasting in sure didn't work for me.

I'd still try one more pound of YSC in your poorest spots. But I'd broadcast it. The place where sweet clover does the best is in a compacted gravel shoulder of a paved road. I have to think it'll go at your place. The link is right here. It's calling out to you, "Foggy, give me one more chance. I'm just a little one pound bag but I could change everything in those tough to grow spots."

Sweet Clover (Yellow Blossom) - OMRI Inoculated

Sweet clovers warm weather biomass production is only rivaled by alfalfa of all forage legumes. With careful management, sweet clover provides an excellent forage for livestock. Sweet clovers first year of biomass reaches 18-24" tall but provides forage of equivalent quality and palatability as...

store.greencover.com

And don't forget the chicory.

Might as well get a ten pound bag of flax if you're ordering YSC.

Flax (Brown)

Flax can be utilized in many small grain and corn rotations as a potential cover crop or fiber/oil crop. Compared to other common crops, overall nutrient demand is lower and very little nitrogen is needed. Vegetative growth normally requires 50 days before flowering occurs but after this...

store.greencover.com

OK....your a smooth talker. I did order the YSC, some flax, and Balansa Clover to experiment with this fall. Got some poor dirt that I am working on. I do like the small quantities they offer.....but the seed costs are pretty high at GCC......IMO. I'm going to order more stuff at Welters.

 

[SD51555]

OK....your a smooth talker. I did order the YSC, some flax, and Balansa Clover to experiment with this fall. Got some poor dirt that I am working on. I do like the small quantities they offer.....but the seed costs are pretty high at GCC......IMO. I'm going to order more stuff at Welters.

Do those guys do small quantities though? That's why I keep going back to GC. They have raised their prices on the tiny bags, but it's still a deal. I have been through that phase of storing big bags of small poundage seeds, and i just don't want to store that stuff anymore. When I'm establishing a new plot, I'm buying my tiny seeds at 1 and 2 pounds of each and mixing up blends cups at a time and then stirring in japanese millet as a carrier.

I discovered this weekend that I have bee balm in one of my plots. I have no idea if I planted it, or it just showed up. I may have had some MN wildflower blends that contained it, and I just got tired of storing it and blew out there. Bee balm seed is $60/ounce. That gets you 61,000 seeds. When I start my next plot, I'm gonna throw $60 at it and mix it in. I have realized I've got a pollinator gap in August.

 

[Foggy47]

Do those guys do small quantities though? That's why I keep going back to GC. They have raised their prices on the tiny bags, but it's still a deal. I have been through that phase of storing big bags of small poundage seeds, and i just don't want to store that stuff anymore. When I'm establishing a new plot, I'm buying my tiny seeds at 1 and 2 pounds of each and mixing up blends cups at a time and then stirring in japanese millet as a carrier.

I discovered this weekend that I have bee balm in one of my plots. I have no idea if I planted it, or it just showed up. I may have had some MN wildflower blends that contained it, and I just got tired of storing it and blew out there. Bee balm seed is $60/ounce. That gets you 61,000 seeds. When I start my next plot, I'm gonna throw $60 at it and mix it in. I have realized I've got a pollinator gap in August.

Have I told you about the magic beans I offer? Only $20 / oz.....but they are worth their weight in gold. Hurry!.....use discount code BR549 to get shipping at 2x the price. Grin.

EDIt: Seriously.....I appreciate your views and advice on this stuff. Interesting take on agronomy.

 

[Brian662]

Do those guys do small quantities though? That's why I keep going back to GC. They have raised their prices on the tiny bags, but it's still a deal. I have been through that phase of storing big bags of small poundage seeds, and i just don't want to store that stuff anymore. When I'm establishing a new plot, I'm buying my tiny seeds at 1 and 2 pounds of each and mixing up blends cups at a time and then stirring in japanese millet as a carrier.

I discovered this weekend that I have bee balm in one of my plots. I have no idea if I planted it, or it just showed up. I may have had some MN wildflower blends that contained it, and I just got tired of storing it and blew out there. Bee balm seed is $60/ounce. That gets you 61,000 seeds. When I start my next plot, I'm gonna throw $60 at it and mix it in. I have realized I've got a pollinator gap in August.

I'm not sure what is driving it this year, but everywhere I look in the past 3 weeks, there is wild bergamot. Must have something to do with the wet spring and early summer we've had because it is thriving in all landscapes.

 

[rocksnstumps]

Similar on my land in WI, bergamot seems to be having a banner year while the goldenrod is ebbing a little. Maybe it is filling in where the milkweed was heavy for a few years but now subsiding. Bumblebees love the stuff so they should be happy. Another plant I hear they really like is Culvers root but don't have any of that by me

 

[Foggy47]

And I would not mow it. That system is going to be overflowing with total fertility. Let the broadleaves come. There will be no bad ones, and if there are, they will be few and won’t spread.

This is a great opportunity to see what year 3 and 4 show in an unbroken system. The one challenge will be how to get rye back into that plot because the clover will be tall and thick. I would probably wait until early to mid October to drill another shot of rye in there in hopes the deer can knock down that clover enough that the rye can get some sun and root down before winter.


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Actually, I had the same clover conditions last fall in most of my plots. I drilled the rye and it came in like gangbusters that fall and into this year. I assume I will again be able to drill and / or broadcast rye and get it to grow. Gonna find out.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Actually, I had the same clover conditions last fall in most of my plots. I drilled the rye and it came in like gangbusters that fall and into this year. I assume I will again be able to drill and / or broadcast rye and get it to grow. Gonna find out.

@Foggy47 i know you have had trouble in the past with successfully surface broadcasting rye, did you try that again last year?

I thought my sept broadcast efforts last year were a bust because it was dry for weeks after i broadcasted and turkeys were heavy in the plots eating seed before i got any moisture. I ended up having quite a bit grow, not as thick as usual but still had rye this spring.

 

[Foggy47]

@Foggy47 i know you have had trouble in the past with successfully surface broadcasting rye, did you try that again last year?

I thought my sept broadcast efforts last year were a bust because it was dry for weeks after i broadcasted and turkeys were heavy in the plots eating seed before i got any moisture. I ended up having quite a bit grow, not as thick as usual but still had rye this spring.

I did not broadcast any rye last year. I drilled it all.....and it grew everywhere I drilled it. I avoided two small areas where I had decent brassica.....and just let that go. Other areas with weak brassica (due to drought) I drilled through it.

Got rains right after drilling.....IIRC. Even where I had good tall clover (shady low ground) I still got the rye to punch through.

 

[Foggy47]

Just went back in the October 2023 pics at Deertopia Proving Grounds thread to give a visual here.......and got a few pics below of what my plots looked like as the cereal rye was punching through. Hoping this will repeat this year. The sorghum variety I used pretty much melted with a frost.....but I am hoping the NW Whitetails sorghum variety this year will stand up better to provide some structure for daytime deer. Just drilled it about two weeks ago.....not seeing it yet. Rye, Clover, Brassica.....what's not to like? This all happened on the heels of an all summer drought....in sand country! Drill baby drill.

 

[Foggy47]

I will be the contrarian. It may be Foggy planted the clover seed too deep, but what's "too deep?" I know, I know. For me it's more than one-inch. It's possible to germinate clover seed planted two inches deep in the right soil under some good conditions.

Clover seed is a funny creation. The smaller the seed the harder the seed coat. A seed coat is Mother Nature's way of preventing germination of the seed until the situation is right. Soil moisture is criticval and I suspect soil temperature plays a part although I've never seen research about the latter. In nature a hard-coat seed will lay in the soil for years and still remain viable.

Commercially, before clovers, alfalfas and some grasses are sold they are processed - cleanrf of weed seed and other inert material. At the same time the seeds are sent thru a process to gently nick the hard seed coat to allow moisture into the germplasm so the growing can begin. It's a very imprecise operation. You might seed a seed tag with a low(er) germination percentage and a fair percentage of hard seed listed, or maybe not. Hard seed is probably going to germinate sooner or later, but probably later because the seed coat remains intact.

In Foggy's situation I am proposing the clover seed is where it should be but hasn't been able to absorb enough moisture to get going. Why? Competition from too much rye. Rye is aggressive, not unlike a weed. Why do we want to get rid of weeds? Because they are aggressive and rob the desired plant of water, nutrients, and oxygen.

Soil is a bucket. It has a limited capacity to hold those things need for plant growth. Too many seeds/plants of what we want will likely diminish or prevent what we are trying to accomplish. The good news, I guess, is all that clover seed is maybe sitting there waiting for some of the competition to clear. A given land area can support only so much vegetation.

Or, maybe the clover seed got planted too deep.

A follow-up to a strange event with growing my clover this year. It's all working out now.....but been a mystery to me.

Reviewing this thread tonight. After looking at my seed tags today......I think Farmer Dan hit the proverbial nail on the head. Also.....I think getting my drill to drop seed behind the seed trench iis going to help allot. I do think I was getting small seeds too deep. But today I saw the seed coat and the hard seed content when bagging up seeds for this fall. Remarkable difference in the germination rates and seed content for that matter. (I will put a pic of one tag a bit later).

(This was a concern with my old Tar River too....and why I made the modeifaction to drop the small seed box seeds behind the trench.). Also another reason for getting the Great Plains over the Tar River.

These two issues coupled together is why my clover was late to the party this year. Maybe the potassium release that SD talks about is another factor? Dunno.

Could be why I never saw any of that crimson clover. Nadda. Lots to learn about seeds now that we got coatings and hard seed etc.....and lots of curve balls in this game. Here are two tags from last fall....and I plan to plant these same seeds later this month.....but now they are BEHIND the trench and just packed.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I got a feelin that those of us who put clover in mixes annually and let it mature the following year end up with lots of clover hard seed in the seed bank. Seems like after a couple years there’s alway clover ready to come up if you burn down with gly and not a broadleaf herbicide with some residual

 

[Foggy47]

I noticed one thing about rye.....and when the seed becomes viable. Until now, and during the dough stage, the rye seed heads stood erect. But now the seed heads have started to droop over (see pic - sorry its rotated 90 degrees). I assume that the plant has exhausted all it's energy to produce that seed....and now it's dead. I put some seeds in a rag doll test yesterday.....and already I see the first signs that the seeds are germinating (pic 2). Will get another pic in a day or two.

Also noticed that the seeds are now much easier to remove from the hulls. Like they want to shed themselves from the head and are no longer captive to the stalk.

 

[Brian662]

A follow-up to a strange event with growing my clover this year. It's all working out now.....but been a mystery to me.

Reviewing this thread tonight. After looking at my seed tags today......I think Farmer Dan hit the proverbial nail on the head. Also.....I think getting my drill to drop seed behind the seed trench iis going to help allot. I do think I was getting small seeds too deep. But today I saw the seed coat and the hard seed content when bagging up seeds for this fall. Remarkable difference in the germination rates and seed content for that matter. (I will put a pic of one tag a bit later).

(This was a concern with my old Tar River too....and why I made the modeifaction to drop the small seed box seeds behind the trench.). Also another reason for getting the Great Plains over the Tar River.

These two issues coupled together is why my clover was late to the party this year. Maybe the potassium release that SD talks about is another factor? Dunno.

Could be why I never saw any of that crimson clover. Nadda. Lots to learn about seeds now that we got coatings and hard seed etc.....andView attachment 67011 lots of curve balls in this game. Here are two tags from last fall....and I plan to plant these same seeds later this month.....but now they are BEHIND the trench and just packed.

You are pretty far north to see crimson making it through winter, even with our warm winter we just had I would guess it to be very unusual for crimson to be viable in your area based off what I've read.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

You are pretty far north to see crimson making it through winter, even with our warm winter we just had I would guess it to be very unusual for crimson to be viable in your area based off what I've read.

Yep, I think you’d need lots of snow cover.

 

[Foggy47]

You are pretty far north to see crimson making it through winter, even with our warm winter we just had I would guess it to be very unusual for crimson to be viable in your area based off what I've read.

Yep....that was my experiment for the 2023 year. I still got some left over.....so I will plant it again. Some have had good luck growing it this far north.....but it's now off my list.

 

[Foggy47]

Do those guys do small quantities though? That's why I keep going back to GC. They have raised their prices on the tiny bags, but it's still a deal. I have been through that phase of storing big bags of small poundage seeds, and i just don't want to store that stuff anymore. When I'm establishing a new plot, I'm buying my tiny seeds at 1 and 2 pounds of each and mixing up blends cups at a time and then stirring in japanese millet as a carrier.

I discovered this weekend that I have bee balm in one of my plots. I have no idea if I planted it, or it just showed up. I may have had some MN wildflower blends that contained it, and I just got tired of storing it and blew out there. Bee balm seed is $60/ounce. That gets you 61,000 seeds. When I start my next plot, I'm gonna throw $60 at it and mix it in. I have realized I've got a pollinator gap in August.

On Small quantity seeds.....check out the Deer Creek Seeds site. They are now owned by LaCrosse Seeds......and have most varieties at 5 lbs and free shipping. I have not compared....but I believe their prices are lower than Green Cover (?). On smaller quantities.....and in fact larger quantities......I can buy about as cheap at either Welters or Mimbach Hardware in St Cloud. Welter pays half the freight.....and no shipping cost at Mimbach (whom mostly sells seeds by LaCrosse....but also other vendors for low prices). I suppose there are some better deals here and there.....but were talking a few bucks in most cases. I like seeing the seed labels.......so Mimbach has been good for me. Welters has always been willing to sell in 10 lbs or so on most seeds.....and does not increase the cost per lb......as long as I have a "decent" order amount.

Edit: One thing I am not too crazy about......is that Welters is selling an awful lot of coated seeds now.....as are many others. I feel like we are getting hosed on coated seeds. They do not do so much of that at Deer Creek or GCC. A big plus.