Starting Over.

[Foggy47]

Three years ago .....I started on a no-till plan for "regenerative" planting. Been working out pretty well......with my primary goal to plant some brassica in July into strips in my clover plots......and then in late August to drill rye and replacement red and white clover and perhaps others into the existing clover. I also planted 6 lbs / acre of yellow sweet clover. No sign of that stuff.....or the other clovers I planted in fall.

Seems all was good....until now. Yesterday I was spot spraying some thistle and mullein (now that I have a functional sprayer) and decided to drive thru the 5 foot high rye to spray some of those weeds and to check the overall condition of my clover under that rye. Saw lots of deer beds......and some "old reliable" areas have wonderful clover. But the majority of my food plot areas have an understory of a variety of small weeds instead of the anticipated clovers. I guess that I have these issues in 5 out of the 7 acres I have for food plots. Not acceptable.

I dont know what to think. We had good conditions going into last fall.....and while I didn't see allot of replacement clover into the early deer season......I figured it would appear in spring. Wrong.....despite wonderful conditions this spring. Not sure if I drilled those small seeds too deep? I had over 100 lbs of rye going into the front seed box and the small seeds going in the trench on top of the rye. Rye crop is as expected......just no meaningful results that I can see from the small seed box. The amount and types of weeds is a mixed bag throughout the plots. Thankfully the rye is doing a fair job of weed control.

Not sure what I will do now. Trying to create a plan. May need to disk the rye and weeds in those "bad areas' then nuke and start anew in late August. Suggestions or condolences are appreciated. lol.

I am really disappointed in my results. A few pics below.....the good the bad and the ugly. (that last pic is where I had some brassica last fall)

 

[Tree Spud]

I feel your pain. I learned you don't need to drill WR and clover. They are great for simple broadcast spreading. Frost seeding clover works very well.

I think true no-till success relies a lot on heavy chemicals use to prepare and clear ground. I had the same issue as you thinking that simply creating a strong thatch layer would suppress the weeds and grasses. It did not so I planted RR beans this spring so I could spray all the crap that moves in.

 

[Foggy47]

I feel your pain. I learned you don't need to drill WR and clover. They are great for simple broadcast spreading. Frost seeding clover works very well.

I think true no-till success relies a lot on heavy chemicals use to prepare and clear ground. I had the same issue as you thinking that simply creating a strong thatch layer would suppress the weeds and grasses. It did not so I planted RR beans this spring so I could spray all the crap that moves in.

Part of my issue....is that I stay in AZ until mid May. Frost seeding wont work for me. I need that clover under the rye to help keep weeds at bay. Didn't want to go back to soybeans. Kinda surprised by my poor results this year.

 

[BuckSutherland]

I would wait a few weeks and then go out there and spray round up and 24d to kill everything. A few weeks after that I would broadcast the clover and then maybe mow the dead weeds. The tillage is probably just gonna get you a bunch more weeds. I don't think you need the tillage step. I would not use the drill to put the clover in. Just get it on the ground and let the rain push it in.

 

[Foggy47]

I would wait a few weeks and then go out there and spray round up and 24d to kill everything. A few weeks after that I would broadcast the clover and then maybe mow the dead weeds. The tillage is probably just gonna get you a bunch more weeds. I don't think you need the tillage step. I would not use the drill to put the clover in. Just get it on the ground and let the rain push it in.

yep....was thinking yesterday.....that I could nuke it all....then broadcast clover and roll the rye over the top to provide some mulch effects. Come back in late Aug and drill the rye again. Giving that some heavy thought. Thanks!

 

[BuckSutherland]

I think true no-till success relies a lot on heavy chemicals use to prepare and clear ground. I had the same issue as you thinking that simply creating a strong thatch layer would suppress the weeds and grasses. It did not so I planted RR beans this spring so I could spray all the crap that moves in.

I've planted and help farm many thousands of acres of corn and soybeans in my life. Last 5 years I have played around with no-till soybeans in heavy tillage country. I would say conservatively speaking on my ground the no-till reduced the weed pressure by 80-90%. Tilled ground around here has exponentially more weeds. Tillage EXPLODES waterhemp and giant ragweed populations in this part of the world. Your mileage may vary.

 

[homerj]

I've planted and help farm many thousands of acres of corn and soybeans in my life. Last 5 years I have played around with no-till soybeans in heavy tillage country. I would say conservatively speaking on my ground the no-till reduced the weed pressure by 80-90%. Tilled ground around here has exponentially more weeds. Tillage EXPLODES waterhemp and giant ragweed populations in this part of the world. Your mileage may vary.

Are you putting down pre-emergent when no-tilling?

 

[Wind Gypsy]

@Foggy47 It seems most of the clover that is booming at my place built up over a couple years largely from seedbank and existing clover that bounced back better than the other stuff that got hit with Gly. I don't know if that is true but that is what it seems like. Do you think that clover might have built up over a couple years similarly at your place in prior years and the 2,4-d you used last fall to give the brassicas a better chance with less competition nocked that progress back?

I have some areas in one plot that is like you show. The clover i plant in fall never seems to catch on too strong and the goldenrod, oxeye daisy, and trefoil comes on like gangbusters.

 

[BuckSutherland]

Are you putting down pre-emergent when no-tilling?

Yes. Putting a pre down no matter what. The worst soybean fields around here are conventional tillage with no pre down. They are train wrecks with all the rain we have had.

 

[rocksnstumps]

Agree that drilling clover however light is maybe still getting too deep. When I used to do tillage with new areas would disc, throw out rye, drag to cover a bit, broadcast clover and only cultipack once last. Rye always did great but clover spotty. Found better combo was spread rye. Cultipack. Broadcast clover and cultipack again. Better overall clover results. Think previous method some got too deep with fluffy soil. My areas are all light somewhat sandy soils.

 

[FarmerDan]

Apologies up front if this sounds snarky....
While seeding all those different varieties of plants in a limited space seems like a good idea I still have problems with it. Seems to me it requires great timing, a fair amount of luck and sharp management. Enough of that!

Foggy, you are there and you see it. My first thought was 'don't give up on it -whatever 'it' is. I think I might mow it short to see what pops up. But 100 lbs of rye? That's a lot of competition for limited resources - like light and moisture.

 

[Turkey Creek]

I would mow say at 8" tall and give it another year. Clover in my experience always seems to fill in better on year 2. You could always spray Clethodim and knock our your grassy weeds if they are much of an issue.

 

[omicron1792]

I agree with last few posts. Don’t give up. Some years things just don’t work as well. They did work well several years before for you.

I can say with certainty the wildlife love those fields, regardless if you like they way they look.

 

[Foggy47]

Lots of good food for thought shared here. Thanks. I got some time to consider the advice given.

A few thoughts:

1. With my Herd seeder mounted on my loader.....I can sling seeds high into the standing rye prior to crimping. (better contact with the ground)
2. I can raise my broadcast sprayer to about a 7 foot height and apply herbicides (over the rye) to any weeds that need to be terminated....and / or wait and do selective weed control after seeding and roller crimping.
3. The roller/crimper will terminate most grasses and longer stem weeds and serves to cultipack and disturb the soil to a large extent. I get the mulch value over the broadcast seeds and preserve the "armor" on the soil.
4. There is "some" clover in areas....maybe it will "mysteriously explode" with some sunlight. I have had some odd experience with clover growth at times.
5. I can expand my area for planting brassica this year to about 2 acres. Thus only three acres are in question. (I have 2 acres of great clover established)
6. Not much at risk to lose here by trying this route.....and I keep "roots in the ground".
7. I tend to overanalyze these things.

 

[Foggy47]

Apologies up front if this sounds snarky....
While seeding all those different varieties of plants in a limited space seems like a good idea I still have problems with it. Seems to me it requires great timing, a fair amount of luck and sharp management. Enough of that!

Foggy, you are there and you see it. My first thought was 'don't give up on it -whatever 'it' is. I think I might mow it short to see what pops up. But 100 lbs of rye? That's a lot of competition for limited resources - like light and moisture.

I think this is a valid thought Dan. I learned from a group think when buying my drill that if you plant enough "good seed" you would tend to "crowd out" weeds. At the time I had a real issue going with pig weed....and I was kinda swearing off future row crop planting.....and sent me on the path to no-till and regenerative ag. I watch allot of folks that plant lots of various seeds and have thought that a mix of brassica, rye, oats or wheat, and a few legumes would compliment one another. Alas....I learned my brassica ideas did not compete well in the clover fields.....but the rye always seems to grow.

Fast forward to this year....and now I have a clover issue. I guess I still have stuff to learn. I do know my BIL farmer has suggested that the number of seeds / acre is a big factor in his calculating a mix of seed. I suppose I may have an issue of more is better going on here (?).

 

[SD51555]

You able to ID your mystery weed? If none of your clovers came, my money is on too deep.

Maybe we could work out an equipment swap to help each other. I bring the leaf blower down there for a day, and you could bring the tractor and drill up to my place for a day?


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[S.T.Fanatic]

As a few have mentioned , I would mow it off and see what happens.


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[Foggy47]

You able to ID your mystery weed? If none of your clovers came, my money is on too deep.

Maybe we could work out an equipment swap to help each other. I bring the leaf blower down there for a day, and you could bring the tractor and drill up to my place for a day?


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I really wish I had the truck and trailer to haul my stuff up to your place. I'd like to give you a few days tractor work. Alas. I sold my trailer (which was too short anyway) and I lack the truck to do heavy hauling.

 

[swat1018]

I don't know the best way to rescue your clover, but I know tillage will only bring more weed seed up where you don't want it. No-till is not a short term proposition, once you till the clock starts over.

 

[SD51555]

I really wish I had the truck and trailer to haul my stuff up to your place. I'd like to give you a few days tractor work. Alas. I sold my trailer (which was too short anyway) and I lack the truck to do heavy hauling.

Next time you’re out there, could you grab a close up pic of your new weeds?

I’ve got an explosion of unintended plants (weeds) I haven’t seen in years. I’ve even got a little bit of hawkweed out by my road spruces. Also have a ton of oxeye daisy. I’m not going to fight any of it right now.

I am going to have to zap some grasses next summer. Had good luck with Poast and will try that again.

I did luck into a big free patch of iodine accumulators with my clover. I was getting worried I’d not have anything for the bugs and gold finches. The big patch I had two years ago died out.

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