Sex Change Operation - Transfered from QDMA forum
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yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Tick,
My first year's grafting just used local female scions, but your pictures are very encouraging. Next year will be the third leaf since grafting for those. I'm anxious to see the results. I will have gone from 2 female trees to over 10. It looks like I'm only going to get 2 more from this spring, one of your 100-45 and Prok, but at least I'll have some improved varieties started.
Right now I have over 400 persimmons that have germinated on my deck and I have hundreds more seeds still in flats waiting to germinate. While I plan to give many away, I hope to plant several hundred on the farm as future rootstock for grafting!
It looks like I've had some success propagating Jujube from root cuttings as well. I'm hoping some of them are big enough to bench graft next spring!
Things are coming along well, but you pictures providing a glimpse into the future are very encouraging!
Thanks,
Jack
My first year's grafting just used local female scions, but your pictures are very encouraging. Next year will be the third leaf since grafting for those. I'm anxious to see the results. I will have gone from 2 female trees to over 10. It looks like I'm only going to get 2 more from this spring, one of your 100-45 and Prok, but at least I'll have some improved varieties started.
Right now I have over 400 persimmons that have germinated on my deck and I have hundreds more seeds still in flats waiting to germinate. While I plan to give many away, I hope to plant several hundred on the farm as future rootstock for grafting!
It looks like I've had some success propagating Jujube from root cuttings as well. I'm hoping some of them are big enough to bench graft next spring!
Things are coming along well, but you pictures providing a glimpse into the future are very encouraging!
Thanks,
Jack
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
That is a very good point. My problem is that I have these in rootmaker and DYI cells. Once archery season rolls around in early Oct, my time is limited and I loose all my planting help. Our hunting season doesn't end until early Jan. I'm not sure I can keep them going that long in the cells. I can't afford to transplant to larger containers.Tickrancher;610629 said:
I am expecting significant losses. I do plan to dip each in watersorb. Based on what one of the forestry guys who plants trees from rootmaker cells told me, I plan to use a planting bar in a non-traditional way. I plan to insert it and rotate to create a pocket. He says this creates a hole the right size for an 18-cell plant. We usually get some fall rains about that time. Hundreds of trees would take me the rest of my life to graft. By planting so many, even if I only get a 20% survival rate, I should have plenty of trees.
I will be keeping my fingers crossed. The good news is that while this has been time consuming, it has also been low cost.
I have not been to the farm to check the two grafts that took this year for two weeks since I taught Hunter Ed last weekend. I'm anxious to see how they are doing! I got some cicada damage on the trees I grafted last year, but the cicadas left the freshly grafted trees alone since they had not leaves.
Thanks,
Jack
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
phopkinsiii;613820 said:
David Osborn's article in QW is what got me started as well. Storage of scions is probably necessary unless your trees are in the south and you get scions from a northern source.
As I understand it, scions should be taken when they are dormant before the buds swell. If you are bench grafting a young containerized tree, you may be able to whip and tongue graft when the target tree is dormant. However, the article and this thread are referring to field grafting using a bark graft. This requires sap to be fully flowing. You should wait until your trees are fully leafed out before bark grafting. When the tree is in full leaf, the sap is running well.
I'm in central VA. I usually wait until late February to prune my persimmon trees. I don't prune soon after they go dormant in Dec because there is no better way to keep a scion fresh than to keep it on the tree. So by waiting until February, I don't' have to store scions as long. However, I think you do have to store them because it takes time for the scion to be accepted by the root stock. If you already have buds swelling, you have a lot of potential for moisture loss that can cause the scion to die before it is accepted.
If you store your scions in a sealed ziplock bag, I think they would be safe from the ethylene gas ripening fruit will produce. The problem is that if you don't add moisture to the bag, they will dry out. If you add moisture and the bag is tightly sealed, you invite mold issues.
Your best option would be to find a friend that doesn't like apples. I have not tried this, but it is something to consider. Long-leaf sphagnum is often used to stratify seeds in the fridge because it has anti-fungal properties. (This is different than sphagnum peat moss). I would think that if you rinsed your scions in a light (10%) bleach solution to start with and then put slightly damp long-leaf sphagnum in the bag with them and sealed it, you would have less chance of mold issues. The sealed bag will protect them from the ethylene gas.
Good Luck,
Jack
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I always knew persimmons were self-pruning to some extent, but I never really paid attention to the details. As I was doing some reading tonight I found this:
"Stems that did not bear fruit during the previous growing season
are preferable as scions because those that have borne fruit are known
to die during the following winter."
I may go out and select scions before the fruit falls this year. I'll just mark branches that did not have fruit and be sure to take those in February.
"Stems that did not bear fruit during the previous growing season
are preferable as scions because those that have borne fruit are known
to die during the following winter."
I may go out and select scions before the fruit falls this year. I'll just mark branches that did not have fruit and be sure to take those in February.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
doctorbrady;617883 said:
Doc,
Funny. I just got done asking that exact question on your Jujube grafting thread. If you are at 50%, with my inexperience, I'll be somewhere south of that.
I'm hoping to bench graft a few persimmons next spring. I'll try to do these before the Jujube so I have some experience with the basics before I try Jujube. I'm hoping my rootstock will be large enough to graft by next spring, but it may need another year. If I can't bench graft these, I may try do a field graft on one of my existing trees just for the experience.
I'll be sure to check in with you before I give it a go.
Thanks,
Jack
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
dawghall;621760 said:
No, the guy I'm dealing with is older and I don't want to inundate him with too much. As for the named varieties, I've see lots of conflicting information in terms of drop time. I'm not sure what all factors go into it.
The guy has offered to send me scions with known drop times. I plan to graft them and I'm keeping a database of what is what on my farm. At the same time, I'm suggesting that everyone here who is interested in grafting persimmons watch prolific trees in their local area and not the drop times. That should let us do scion exchanges with known drop times.
When I went back and looked at some of the claypool notes, I saw some varieties that were noted as "good for wildlife". After talking to several folks, I'm not under the impression that "good for wildlife" simply means that they were prolific trees that did not taste good to humans. I don't think it had anything to do with drop time.
I have narrowed my current list of named varieties down to:
- Nikita's Gift (Hybrid)
- Lehman 100-29N (American)
- Wonderful (American)
I have 100-25 and Prok thanks to tickrancher. I only had one graft of each take this spring, so I doubt I'll have scions this year from these.
I plan to do most of my grafting from whatever the old guy gives me. I do know that he told me he is no longer using Prok because he has found better trees.
As soon as I get trees going, I'll be happy to share scions. If I had not made this contact and was using American named varieties, I'd be starting with the ones I mentioned above. I understand Wonderful drops in October (in NY). I don't know if zone affects drop dates. I'm guessing it does since most of the information I find specifies drops as early, mid and late, not by month.
I have about 20 native trees identified for grafting next spring. From the batch I started this summer, I'm keeping about 30 to try bench grafting next spring.
I'm not sure if this will be of any value to you or not, but when my contact started looking for persimmons that drop later (Nov and Dec) during firearm season, he started with this list of named varieties: Golden Supreme, Hess, Compton, Miles, Janet, Meader, Garretson, Rosseyanka, Blue,
Kenner,Kitch.
I know from our discussion that Rosseyanka and Meader are off his list. My guess is that he has abandon most if not all of them by now in favor of prolific native trees with specific drop times that people have sent him. This plus the list above should give you a starting point unitl we can get something going with specific trees.
Thanks,
Jack
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I have now joined both NAFEX and SFF. I've already got some good advice from their Jujube interest group lead. I do have an email into Mr. Lehman on persimmons but have not heard back yet.Tickrancher;625296 said:
Tick,
That Prok looks great! Do you know when the trees ripen and drop that were the source of the Prok and 100-45 scions you sent?
Thanks,
Jack
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Tickrancher;626599 said:
Tick,
I can't speak from experience when it comes to results for established trees yet. I can tell you my philosophy and what I have done so far. I will say my trees look very healthy to date.
I know you've seen this but for the benefit of others, here is my propagation thread for starting persimmons from seed: http://www.qrgc-forums.org/QRGC_Forums/yaf_postst449_Persimmon-Propagation.aspx
As for planting, I have read that young persimmon trees are not a favored browse for deer. That is confirmed by my native trees. I don't see any browse issues with native young persimmons. So, my approach was to go cheap and plant a lot of trees with no protection. Those that make it, great, and those that don't, oh well.
I am planting trees in a variety of locations. We just had a timber operation conclude. They are currently doing the final restoration of roads, decks, and drainage. We had hardwoods clear-cut and pines thinned (one section a normal thinning and the other a heavy thinning).
I'm planting in open areas that have weeds, along fields, in recent clear-cuts, in thinned pines. I'm trying to select spots that get a good amount of sun and are well drained. I don't believe persimmons like standing water. Jerry Lehman just reported on a leaf drop issue he thinks is associated with anaerobic intolerance.
For the open areas that were full of weeds, I did spray gly first. I did not do that in the hardwood clear-cut or the thinned pines since there were no weeds growing actively enough to kill with gly.
I used a dibble in a non-traditional way based on some feedback I got from someone on this site for planting trees directly from rootmaker cells. Here is one of the kids who helped with the bar we used:
We inserted it into the ground about the depth of the rootmaker cell and twisted it 360 degrees to form a small cup. I had two 5 gal buckets with us, one had water and the other had a WaterKeep slurry. We took a cell and dunked it in the water bucket for a second or so to let it fill with water. We then squeezed all 4 sides to loosen it up. Next we put a hand over the cell with the persimmon stem between our fingers. We inverted the cell and with one good shake, the rootball came right out. We then use our other hand to cover the root ball and turn the tree upright again. We then dunked that hand and the root ball into the Water keep slurry. We simply set it in the ground cup and pressed it in place.
I planted 18 trees this way a week ago as a test before having the crews come down to help. All of those trees were looking good. My fingers are crossed and it has only been a week. We have been having timely rain. I would have preferred to wait longer until the trees went dormant, but by then many would have been pushing the limits of the rootmaker cells and I simply would not have time or as much help during hunting season. I think with the WaterKeep and our current weather they will be OK.
Since I'm new at this, I'm not putting all my eggs in one basket. I'm saving some prime locations within some fields for next year. I am overwintering 45 of the trees in rootbuilder II pots. I plan to bench graft them next spring, summer them in the pots and plant them next fall/winter. I will put more time, care, weed control, etc. into those trees.
I'll be able to give you a better idea next year how this all worked out!
Thanks,
Jack
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yoderjac
5 year old buck +
phopkinsiii;678812 said:
Phil,
We got hit hard by cicadas this year. Other than that, my 2012 grafts are really doing well. When I collected scions from my local tree, I pruned them. I got rid of any wood that had cicada damage As you know, my 2013 grafting technique changed and my success rate went way down. It is interesting. The two grafts that took in 2013 had absolutely zero cicada damage. I think was likely due to timing. They had not leafed out when the cicadas hit and they seemed to have no interest in them.
All of the 2012 scions leafed out. They grew a bit in diameter but did not put on the same level of growth as they did the first year in 2012.
If you are doing grafts before leaf out, you did the right thing using whip & tongue or cleft. I'm planning trying my hand at cleft grafting on my jujube later this spring. These are the ones started from root cuttings. Right now, the largest is just a bit smaller than a pencil. I've ordered some scions from Roger Meyer. Once they arrive and I can check out the sizes, I'll be able to make a call as to whether I can graft them. I found a guy who will swap me some Nikita's Gift scions for some of my Tigertooth Jujube. He says he gets about 90% success grafting jujube using the cleft graft.
The old timer who has been grafting for wildlife for many years tells me that the bark graft is the best for persimmons. He grafts all kinds of trees using all kinds of grafts. He said that the bark graft is the easiest and had the highest success rates.
You may have already seen this but I'll include the link in case you a have not: https://sites.google.com/site/johnpanza/refinementsingrafting
It is work a read if you plan to do dormant season whip & tongue grafts.
Thanks,
Jack
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
phopkinsiii;678838 said:
dogdoc;702420 said:
Todd,
The first trees I grafted are doing great! I used scions from my most prolific local tree. Time will tell if they produce persimmons this year but I have my fingers crossed. I will report back on that.
I did have poor success last spring. Only two of my grafts were a success. They were my first two named species, 100-45 and Prok. They are both doing very well. I do attribute most of my failure last year to a lack of pressure when I skipped the electrical tape and grafting rubber that I used my first year.
I have a few grafting rubbers left and I plan to use them on the smaller trees. I also ordered some 7"x 5/8" rubber bands. They should be here tomorrow. That should give me 14" strips when I cut them. I decided to try these because they are much less expensive than actual grafting rubbers.
For larger trees, I plan to go back to electrical tape. I know some folks use flagging tape. I've considered that and may try it, but I think the electrical tape has just as much stretch but because it has adhesive, it is easier to apply.
As for my seedlings, they did much worse than I had hoped. I'm now convinced the issue was the late start. They were only about 6" tall when I planted them in September. September is probably the worst time to plant them. I simply didn't think I would have time to wait for them to go dormant and plant them during the hunting season. I also could not have kept them in the cells that long.
My analysis of the failure seems to be that the tips were not fully hardened by the time they went dormant and the seedling were too young to have many buds below the few buds at the tip. I believe the cambium layer near the tip failed over the winter due to lack of maturity. I figured this out when trying to bench graft them. I started cutting them for grafting and found they were dead. As I moved lower on the stem I eventually found green cambium. On most it was in the lower third before I found green cambium. Since most plants had the cambium disrupted before the lowest buds, they died.
You can see on another thread that I kept some over winter in rootmaker 1 gal pots and brought them in early. Only about 10% leafed out and only 5% actually lived. Another 10% or so produced new growth from the root system and about 5% actually look like they will live.
When I checked my field planted seedlings last week, a non-scientific count shows similar results. It is too early to see new growth from the root system so I don't know about that, but I'm guessing I saw green buds opening on about 10% of the seedlings I examined.
I also had browsing issues with many of them in the field. None of this occurred while the plants were green. We did have a very hard winter with no mast crop this year. However, I'm not convinced that deer there the issue. It is also possible that rabbits were snipping these off.
This year, I started seedlings earlier. I'd say most are about 3" tall right now with their first set of leaves. I'm now trying to decide if it is worth buying tubes for these.
My plan is to start bark grafting pecans to hickory trees on Thursday and evaluate my persimmons. If they are ready I may start on them as well. I'm out of the area for a graduation this weekend, but next Thursday I plan to start on my persimmons in earnest.
Thanks,
Jack
