Sex Change Operation - Transfered from QDMA forum

[yoderjac]

Jack
I have some that have done the same thing. It seems to be on the native scions that I grafted. I was going to ask if yours were Florida scions but I don't think I sent you any. I'd be curious to know what causes that and whether it's a good or bad sign for the future health of the tree.

I didn't get any scions from FL this year. There are 3 scions grafted to that tree but I didn't check to see which one produced such a large leaf. The three are Wonderful, 100-46, and a Mississippi November native.
I presume those large leaves are a good sign for future health. Leaves are the solar collectors for energy and I presume having more and larger leaves suggests the tree is firing on all cylinders. This tree has pretty good growth considering the smaller diameter, I grafted both sides of two leaders coming from the same root, and that it only gets morning sun and is shaded from about noon on.

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

There have been a few set backs with the persimmon grafts this fall. The Tick Ranch has been hit with twig girdlers. They have taken the top clean off some of my healthiest grafts.
MISSING PICTURE
I'll burn the top to kill any eggs and to slow the spread of the insects.
When you start habitat work, you hope the number and quality of bucks using your land increases. That has certainly happened on the Tick Ranch but there is a downside. That new buck population has started working over the trees and especially field grown persimmons.
MISSING PICTURE
This 3 year old persimmon graft (below) was hit last year and then wrapped in window screen to save it. This season he is back but so far the screen has helped.
MISSING PICTURE
I may begin fencing some of my grafted persimmons. It is a downer when a tree you have been watching all summer gets taken out in one fall evening. Growing persimmons is still easier than growing apples but they are not without challenges.
Just sharing a few thoughts and photos.
John

 

[yoderjac]

John--I lost a few grafts from either high winds or critters pulling them off the graft union. I suspect wind though. I was thinking next year using some of my extra tree tubes and grafting about a foot lower than the top of the tub to give the union some support. The other option is grafting higher on the tree and staking for support.
sorry for the bad luck (or good luck in bringing in more deer).
todd

 

[yoderjac]

John,
So sorry to hear about the loss. I have been fortunate so far. My deer don't seem to bother the persimmons for rubbing but that my be because they have other options they like better. So far I've been fortunate. Cicadas were the only pest that seems to have caused significant damage. There always seems to be something munching on leaves from time to time but not enough to bother the trees.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I thought it was time to update this thread with status:
In 2012 I grafted 9 male trees using scions from a prolific native female tree I call Charlie's Persimmon. In 2013, we were inundated with cicadas. Folks have posted pictures of grafted persimmons that produced fruit in the third leaf. These trees have not. This may be due to the cicada setback. They are in their 4th leaf right now, but it is too early for them flower, so time will tell.
In 2013, I grafted my first two trees with named varieties that succeeded thanks to the generosity of Tick Rancher. There were prok and 100-45. I did graft a bunch of other trees but changed grafting technique most of the grafts failed. I since learned how important pressure is when bark grafting and how important it is not to use a liquid sealant that can run into the graft. They are starting their third leaf this spring.
In 2014, I stepped it up. I grafted 23 trees, many with multiple scions that took. I had a great success rate with the improved grafting technique. I used scions from 10 different named varieties and 6 native trees from folks nice enough to send me scions from their local prolific trees. They are all in their second leaf. I also started a "scion farm" in 2014. I found several trees, some fairly large, that were in locations where I don't want to attract deer. I grafted as many scions from as many varieties as possible to these trees. I won't cull scions from these trees, I'll just keep them as multi stemmed trees and collect scions from them each year. If they ever fruit, I'll cut them below the grafts and start over. With trees in better locations, I often graft more than one scion to larger diameter root stock just for insurance. After they go dormant, I'll cull them down to a single scion. Between these scion sources I should have plenty for years of grafting.
I have a few more trees to graft this year but I'm almost done with my know trees (I find and flag more each year). So far I have grafted 24 trees using the same varieties as in 2014.
All of my trees so far are American persimmon. Asian persimmon generally don't fall from the tree making them less attractive for deer. I did try one hybrid called Nikita's Gift which is a Virginiana x Kaki in 2014 but the graft failed. Most of the scions I received developed mold and died. Since I have never had this happen to any of my American persimmon scions and I stored them the same, I presume that Nikita's gift is just more susceptible. I have heard conflicting reports about Nikita's Gift. Some say it falls from the tree when ripe some say it does not.
In 2013 and 2014 I also started some persimmons from seed in rootmaker containers. This winter after they had enough chill hours, I brought them inside and put them under lights. After they had some time to warm up, I contacted my source for scions and asked him to cut some fresh and send them to me. With no storage, I would avoid any mold issues. This allowed me to successfully bench graft some Nikita's Gift scions to my small containerized trees. I had moderate success and have about a dozen or so growing on my deck right now. I'll plant them at the farm when they go dormant. They will become a source for scions for future grafting. I can take them at the very last minute before the buds swell and store them for a minimum amount of time.
My persimmon plan for 2016 is to get varieties that I don't already have grafted.
I'm really hoping I'll see the first fruits of my labor this year!
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

It is still a bit early, but I have seen no evidence of bud swell on any of the persimmons I grafted this spring. I was hoping to see persimmons on the trees I have in there 4th leaf this spring that were grafted with native scions. So far, there is no sign of flowers, but when I checked a native female that fruited last year, I can see no flowers on it yet.
The good news is that the improved varieties that were grafted 3 years ago are showing some flowers. This first picture is of a Prok:

If you look closely at this stem you can see a flower starting.
The next picture is of a 100-46:

The flowers are easier to see on this one.
I'm not sure if the native trees just take longer to produce fruit or if they are just going to flower later this year.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Sweet--you are going to get your very first persimmons from grafting.
good job. Weird that your trees haven't flowered yet. Mine were flowering about 3 weeks ago.
todd

You're right. It is really strange. My local trees are very reliable but I guess it is possible some specific weather event or something will keep them from producing at all this year. The leaves on the native trees seem a bit smaller than normal this year. I can't think of any unusual weather event that could account for it. Time will tell.
What is even more unusual, I have persimmons growing on the Nikita's Gift on my deck that I grafted this winter!

 

[yoderjac]

If all your improved varieties are females and are flowering but none of your native trees are flowering my guess is that they won't have fruit?? You need the native males for pollination?

You could be right. I have not been checking the native male trees for flowers. I'm hoping that they will just be flowering late rather than not at all.

 

[yoderjac]

I checked today and my first attempt at a 'simmon sex-change operation (bark grafting) is looking good (so far) with scion buds!
Thanks for the inspiration Jack!
-fsh

Let's see some pictures!

 

[yoderjac]

My persimmons are just showing flowers right now. I've never documented exact dates, but right now seems right here.

I had a grafted simmon die from borer infestation many, many years ago. The root stock produced 4 trunks (all males) and I grafted Japanese simmon scions onto three of them in May:

Three of the scions now show buds:

-fsh

Looking good fshafly2!

 

[yoderjac]

My persimmons are just showing flowers right now. I've never documented exact dates, but right now seems right here.

Jack, I actually had flowers on a graft from DogDoc last year about 2 months after I grafted it,but of course no fruit. I've found that his wild scions take to my trees, and grow more quickly than the improved varieties that I have used. I'm curious to see how your N.G. does. I've been trying to find scions from one for a couple of yrs. I have heard that they fall and that they don't, who knows!
Also, has anybody had a problem with a grafted tree looking great,but after it goes dormant, it dies. I wonder if I need to spray my persimmons here in the south like we do our peaches and plums.Could I be having a pest problem? I don't see it happening with any ungrafted trees.Any thoughts?

 

[yoderjac]

My persimmons are just showing flowers right now. I've never documented exact dates, but right now seems right here.

David,
See DogDoc's thread above. The wild Florida scions I sent him last year took off like crazy and then all died this spring. We assumed it was cold tolerance, but if you've had it happen to other scions, maybe there's another factor involved.
I did lose a couple over the winter, but there was no real pattern as far as scion source.
Phil

Jack--unfortunately all the improved varieties that you sent me last year died. However, a lot of the "Charlie" (I think that was the name) are doing great. What is weird though is they are just now starting to leaf out while all of my native trees have already flowered. I think that is the tree that you said was bulldozed down earlier this year. I would like to add some diversity to the persimmon gene pool but I will probably wait a few years to see if this is just a fluke or if they continue to leaf out much later than my trees. My trees have already flowered and producing baby fruit. If that's the case there won't be any native male trees to pollinate the "charlie" trees you sent me. Hopefully it was just a fluke and next year they will leaf/flower at the same time as my natives.
I do believe my florida scions died from cold. There really is no other explanation as the tree itself is doing great and sending a lot of shoots below the graft line.

todd

 

[yoderjac]

I think there are probably several things going on. One of the reasons I didn't take any of the scions Phil offered from Florida was that I was worried about cold tolerance from trees from the deep south.
First, scions from a different area are going to make a lot of mistakes taking cues from the weather. I have heard that when bare root persimmons are planted, sometimes they don't break dormancy until very late. I could certainly see scion from another area take a couple years to adjust to the climate given they can survive in the new climate.
Second, There may be compatibility issues between different varieties and rootstock.
Todd,
Sorry to hear the improved varieties didn't make it. I found that different varieties of scions leafed out at different times this spring. Some were much later than others. I would presume that the same would be true for flowering. I'm glad the Charlie scions did well. If you find they aren't fruiting because of pollination timing, just let me know and I'll send you some scions from my male trees.
My presumption is that after a few years of adaptation flowering will better synchronize.
I have not been to the farm for a week. I'm planning on going down on Monday or Tuesday. I'm anxious to see how the persimmons are doing.
Dave,
I'm anxious to see how the NGs do. They are doing great on my deck in 3 gal RB2s. Two of them actually have persimmons growing on them. I'll probably plant them at the farm this fall. Hopefully I'll have NG scions to offer in the future.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Well, I checked my grafts this week. A few are showing bud swell and one is leafed out and growing well...You guessed it, it was a DogDoc scion. They really take to my native trees well and tend to out grow the named varieties just like David said. Many of my grafts don't show any sign yet, but it is still too soon. Many of the trees I grafted this year were much smaller diameter than those grafted in previous years, so I'm expecting lower success rates and later scion takes given the smaller root systems.
My native trees are now just starting to produce flowers. I double checked all my trees grafted with the native female Charlie scions and none are producing flowers.
The most amazing of all to me is that two of the Nikita's Gift trees that I bench grafted this winter have one persimmon each that are a bit bigger than cherry tomatoes.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Did the okie scions that you grafted last year leaf out at the same time as your local natives? Just wondering since your "charlie" scions leafed out about a month behind my natives.
And I guess the Nikita's Gift is self fertile?

Your Okie scions leafed out before the improved varieties and well ahead of my natives this year. I also got some scions from other native trees. I'm not sure the original source, but I got them from a guy in Mississippi who got them from across the country. I got some that drop in Nov, some in Dec, and some in Jan in Mississippi. These are competitive with the Okie scions for growth rate. None of the improved varieties grow that fast.
I'm told Nikita's Gift is self fertile. It just seems strange to me that when I graft big trees with well established root systems and it takes until the third leaf minimum to get persimmons, but here I have persimmons I bench grafted only 5 months ago now have persimmons in their first leaf.
Perhaps this is related to the rootmakers in some way. I don't know.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

My persimmons are just showing flowers right now. I've never documented exact dates, but right now seems right here.

All my scions seemed to leaf out at about the same time. I have grafts doing well from OK, VA, and KY. The grasshoppers got a few last month, but I expect that they will recover as most are on really strong root stock.
No flowers on any of them yet. Our native trees have 1-2" fruit on them already.
This is one of the OK scions-cleft grafted to a 1" root stock that has really taken off this spring.

I thought I took one of one of the Charlie scions-a bark graft-that's done equally well. I must have missed the button.

Wild varieties tend to do better, but every now and then an improved variety will outgrow everything I have. Maybe it's just a fluke, because the same scions don't do as well on other trees. By the way, my oriental persimmons(Fuyu and Jiro) had persimmons on them even when the trees were small,they will usually shed most of them until the tree gets older.

 

[yoderjac]

I have a question...on the trees that were unsuccessful...where the grafts did not "take" can I cut the trunk lower next year and graft again?
I assume I need to go ahead and let the many buds on the trunk grow and "limb out" for now and then next spring I could cut the trunk lower and regraft??

Absolutely. Once you are absolutely certain none of the scions on a particular tree took, you can let water sprouts grow. What I usually do is to continue to maintain the graft. I like to pick a few water sprouts that are near the top of the stump and let them grow. The number I leave depends on the size of the stump. I continue to remove water sprouts that start more than a few inches below the top of the stump.
This gives me two options the following spring. One option is to pick a water sprout (or several depending on the size of the tree) and graft to them. This gives you several grafting options including w&t grafts. Depending on the size of the root stock, you may even be able to graft again this year if you have viable scions. Cambium matching grafting (cleft, W&T, etc) don't require sap to be flowing heavily like bark grafting. The graft just needs to take and grow enough that it has time to properly harden before winter. The other option is to cut the stump off below all the water sprouts next spring and bark graft again.
One more note: I've had some large diameter trees fail. One year I got caught in a thunder storm after I cut down a 6" diameter tree and started grafting. I'm sure all the water ruined the grafts. I successfully grafted the tree the next year, but I also noticed something. I got a lot of new saplings starting some 10' or more from the base. Watch for these for future grafting options.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

My persimmons are just showing flowers right now. I've never documented exact dates, but right now seems right here.

Jack, Thanks!

 

[yoderjac]

Well, the first persimmons I grafted (native female to male rootstock) are in their 4th leaf this spring. They still have not flowered. On the other hand, I have 1 Prok and 1 100-46 that are in their 3rd leaf since I grafted them to their native rootstock. Both flowered this spring. The 100-46 has small persimmons starting:

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Here are updated pictures of persimmons the Prok and 100-46 respectively in their third leaf:

PROK

100-46
Only a few persimmons but this was a poor year for our native persimmons.
Thanks,
Jack