Persimmon Varieties for Deer -Transfered from QDMA forum

[yoderjac]

It is June 22, 2013. When I got home from the farm tonight, I found that my first persimmon had germinated:

I decided to dig it up from the flat and plant it in a rootmaker cell. I was surprised at how big the tap root was. It almost didn't fit in a rootmaker cell. I'm hoping there is enough room in the flats so these roots don't J-hook before I transplant them. It looks like I'll need to transplant as soon as I see any indication of germination.
Here is a picture after transplant:

I should have taken one of the root.

 

[yoderjac]

Checked this afternoon and found 17 more that had germinated. I now have my first full tray of 18 cell rootmakers transplanted.

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks for the great thread.
The lease where I hunt in Central Florida (Osceola County) has several stands of persimmons. Many of them have small, 1-2 inch fruits on them right now. I've picked out a couple of the stands for good hunting spots this fall.
First Question: Our deer season opens September 14 and runs through Jan 19. Does anybody have experience with wild Persimmons in Florida and do you know when to expect fruit drop? Otherwise, is there a way to predict fruit drop from the size of the early fruit? I don't have the benefit of experience because I just found the trees this spring.
Second: I'd like to transplant a few of these up to my 80 acre property in NE Tennessee. Can anybody give me some advice on the best way to do this-timing, transport medium, size of trees to dig up etc. There are dozens of saplings surrounding the larger fruit bearing trees.

Keep in mind that I'm still learning, but here are my thoughts:
If these trees are growing wild, they are likely 60 chromosome American persimmons that grow in the south. I'm learning that there is a lot of variation in drop time of American persimmons that are not a named variety. Some trees will drop fruit in Oct while others may still be holding fruit in Dec. This can happen with two different trees growing in the same area. The in which they are growing may also have some impact on the drop time. So, as far as I know, the only way to know is to keep a notebook and make notes about individual trees.
The other option is to cut down a target tree and grafted scions from a precocious tree with a known drop time to it. It takes about 3 years after the grafting for an established tree to start producing significant amounts of fruit.
Persimmons often grow in clusters. Unless the seedlings are growing so close to the bearing female tree that you are sure they are coming from the same root system, they could be completely different trees and even a different sex.
Second, naturally growing persimmons have a very deep tap root. Transplanting them can be problematic. I'm sure if you have a large enough tree space and small enough persimmon you could make it work, but I don't know what your success rate would be. Unless you are really sure this is what you want to do, I'd consider alternatives. It is a lot easier to start persimmon trees from seed or to buy bare root seedlings from the state. However, if you find a sapling that is very small, you certainly could dig it up.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

When I got home tonight, I found more persimmons to transplant. I am finding some issues starting them in mesh flats like you do for oaks or chestnuts.
As soon as I see any red (and you really have to look close), I'm transplanting the persimmons. In some cases everything is fine and the root radicle is on 1/2" - 1 1/2". However, in some cases, instead of the roots growing through the newspaper (perhaps I should have used only one layer instead of two) and pruning, some are growing laterally. I had one that was almost too long to fit in a rootmaker cell and yet I could barely see a little red stem. It had not yet lifted the seed into the air. I'm afraid that if I wait for this, I'll have root issues.
I have no idea what my germination rates will be like, but with over 700 seeds in flats, I should have plenty. Right now, I have a total of 30 transplanted.

 

[yoderjac]

I've started another thread on DYI air pruning to deal with some of these issues and keep my cost down: http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57658&page=2
It is June 25th. I transplanted another bunch of persimmons tonight, most to rootmaker cells, but a few to my DYI cells. I now have 42 transplanted. I also planted another 77 seeds in one of my new DYI flats.
Here is a picture of the first rootmaker tray I filled:

Sorry the picture is a bit fuzzy.

 

[yoderjac]

I transplanted another 33 persimmons that germinated in the flats into rootmaker cells tonight. I also decided to try something different. I did some reading and saw that some of the recommend mixes for rootmakers for trees have a significant component of sand. So, I decided to mix some sand with my Fafard 3B tonight. I'm doing a couple trays with an approximate 50/50 mix by volume. After transplanting this group tonight, I'm guessing this is too much sand. I think I may try 1/3 sand 2/3 3B by volume next time. I'll watch these over time and see if there is any difference.
Any thoughts to adding sand to 3B?

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
Any further thoughts or updates on this?
Our persimmons here in Florida have dropped all their leaves and fruit. They'll have a fairly short dormant season and will probably break dormancy by the first or second week of March. Please keep me in mind for a scion exchange. I have several prolific female trees picked out to collect wood from.
Thanks,
Phil

Phil,
I'm trying to work with a number of resources. I planted about 500 persimmons or so for future rootstock. Most are still alive and doing well. I kept 45 at home to try bench grafting next spring.
I have found a guy who has been grafting persimmons for wildlife for 30 years. He has offered to send me some scions from prolific trees with known drop dates. I'm watching my own trees trying to record drop dates as well for the swap. I also plan to try some named varieties. I got a 100-45 and Prok started last year. I have not settled on which particular named varieties I'll try just yet. I do plan to try Nikita's Gift if I can find scions for that.
I don't see this as a sprint but a marathon. After working with the old grafter, adding some named varieties, and trying bench grafting, I hope to be better informed next year with more to share.
I'm in learning mode at this point but I do plan to keep this thread updated with variety information as I learn.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

That makes 2 of us. The fruit on our trees started looking ripe about the 1st of September and started dropping fruit about a week later. They were almost completely bare by October 1.
I've also started the beginning of a long experiment. I've had about 30 seeds stratifying in the fridge for about 8 weeks now. I scarified them in hot water overnight per the suppliers recommendations. None show any signs yet of producing a root radical. I've been keeping them moist with dilute hydrogen peroxide. I read a couple papers that suggested that H2O2 could increase germination rates. At least it will keep the mold down.
Phil

Jack,
I am looking forward to a persimmon scion exchange! I could use some September and early October droppers. Most of my fruiting trees are still carrying fruit, but look to be getting ripe soon.

Doc,
Where are you located? As above, our trees started to drop during the second week of September and were pretty much done by the first week of October. Contrary to what others have reported. I haven't seen any trees that were very far off this schedule. I'll be glad to collect some scions and exchange with you.

 

[yoderjac]

I think I'm closing in on a plan for next spring. I have a number of different scions lined up. Here is my situation:
Spring 2012:
Started converting male trees to female using my local prolific persimmon (Charlie's Persimmon). Great grafting success!
Spring 2013:
Continued converting male trees using Charlie's Persimmon and two commercial varieties, Prok and 100-45. Poor success due to some grafting technique changes (learning experience). Only 2 trees took, one Prok and one 100-45.
Spring 2014:
I have the following scions lined up or ordered...
Commercial Varieties:
Wonderful, 100-46, Szukis, U20a (Celebrity), Nikita's Gift (a Hybrid)
Local Native:
Chub's_Dock (Made up name for a local tree holding persimmons in early Dec)
Other:
The guy I mentioned earlier in this thread who has been grafting persimmon for deer for 30 years is sending me a selection from his best performing trees. I'm not sure if any are named varieties or not.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

One of the guys I'm getting scions from just told me he is throwing in a few extra varieties! They are Morris Burton #3 and Geneva Long. I'm not sure if either of these varieties are good choices for deer or not, but I'll try them out. Does anyone have either of these varieties?

 

[yoderjac]

I just thought I would update this thread. My plans for persimmon varieties is solidifying. Here is my list:
Commercial Varieties:
Wonderful
100-46
Szukis
U20a (Celebrity)
Nikita's Gift
Morris Burton #3
Geneva Long
H-120
100-45
Lena
Prok
100-27S
Native trees:
Local: Chubs_Doc (Had persimmons still hanging in early Dec this year 7A)
Local: Charlie's Persimmon (Dropped in Oct in 7A)
Mississippi: Nov Drop in 8a
Mississippi: Dec Drop in 8a
Mississippi: Jan Drop in 8a
Oklahoma: Nov Drop in 6b
Oklahoma: Dec Drop in 6b
One note for those trying to decide what to do themselves: The Morris Burton #3 and Geneva Long were not varieties I chose for wildlife. They were "thrown in" as part of a scion swap with a guy. I do plan to try them.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks Jack. I guess it will be a few years before you know for sure how these will do for the deer.
In addition to the Chubs_Doc and Charlie that you sent me, I got scions from DogDoc and a fairly wide variety from a guy in Kentucky. None of those are named.
I grafted all the following to native Florida trees.
Virginia Chubs_Doc
Virginia Charlie
Oklahoma November and December
Kentucky October, November, December and January
Florida September
Prok VxK (I believe the letters stand for virginiana and kaki)
Yates/Juhl V
Early Golden
It looks like we'll have an active scion trade for next year! I wanted some of what England's calls 'deer magnet' but they weren't shipping any. I think that's either the 100-45 or 46 that you mention above. If you have some to trade next year, it would be great.
Phil

Phil,
The VxK does mean what you suggest however, I'm not sure it is true. Some folks think that Prok is a cross. All of the experts I've talked to don't believe that. They believe it is a straight Virginia.
I believe the one the England calls deer magnet is 100-29N, not 100-45 or 100-46. I found it a year or so ago in the claypool records and it was high on my list. I then found the Cliff is marketing under the name 'deer magnet'. I think he is selling the trees but not yet selling scions. If there was one other scion I could get it this year would be 100-29N. He is marketing this as 'deer magnet' because it has little commercial value. It is a highly productive tree with late (in commercial terms) dropping persimmons that don't have good commercial qualities. There is a second tree in the claypool records that has similar characteristics designated as 100-29S.
If we all have a good year with grafting success, we should have a pretty good handle on full season coverage in a few years. Tickrancher, who is currently laid up and not posting much right now is big into persimmons. He has been a great help to me and has some great experience with persimmons. Hopefully in a few years, we'll have this "persimmons for wildlife" thing worked out.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I just had a client bring me 25 native persimmon seedlings. She enrolled in a CRP and ordered a 1000 different trees and brought me some sawtooth and persimmon. I've got about 50 marked at my land to graft and have 18 growing in rootmakers so I am going to planting a lot of persimmons. I think i will keep the 18 rootmakers at the house and transplant them into super air pots and rootmakers.
I've also planted some apple and pear but I think my future plantings are all going to be persimmon. They just take no care at all once established and the deer devour every one that hits the ground.
todd

 

[yoderjac]

Where can i find seeds and what are the Hardiest varieties to get a couple dozen stared?
Oaks - Check
Chestnuts - Check
Apple Trees - Check
Pears - Check
Persimmons - needed

Zone 4b may be pushing it for persimmons. You may want to check with others in your area to see if they make sense and what varieties do best up north.
Persimmons are not true to seed so you will be starting rootstock from seed. You can later graft the varieties you want to the rootstock. For 90 chromosome persimmons (northern strain) my source has been Cliff England (England's Orchard).
I have some seed stratifying but it is all from my local 60 chromosome persimmons. I think you will be better of with 90 chromosome that far north if you can get anything to work.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Hey new here but someone wanted to know a good place to buy Persimmons trees.. I have bought mine from a place that sells wholesale but will sell retail if you buy $100.00 are more. they also sell pawpaw which the deer around here goes crazy over and lots of other fruits like apples and pears
there adress is Rusty Mangrum Nursery 3075 west green hill rd McMinnville TN 37110 phone 931-939 2572 http://www.rustymangrumnursery.com/

 

[yoderjac]

END OF QDMA TRANSFER

 

[yoderjac]

I'm new into persimmons, I preordered twenty five 4' northern persimmons from Cold Stream Farm out of MI for next spring to try. I'm really looking forward to getting them out to see how they will do.

H20,

Sorry. You caught me transferring one of my QDMA threads over here. Best of luck with those persimmons. Let us know how they do!

Thanks,

Jack

 

[chickenlittle]

You sure have been busy moving stuff Jack.

In central PA, I grafted some Meader, Prok, and Yates this spring. Cleft graft onto 3/8 to 1" seedlings and bark grafts onto 1.5" to 4" trees. Everything is growing nice, vigorous. I have some younger seedlings that I hope to graft other varieties onto next spring. Hoping early to mid drop varieties hit the spot at this latitude.

 

[yoderjac]

I'm not sure how much longer the QDMA forum will be accessible for moving stuff so I'm trying to get some of my threads over here before we lose them.

 

[yoderjac]

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