Sex Change Operation - Transfered from QDMA forum

[yoderjac]

Jack,
I'll be really curious to see how you do with graftign th pecans t hickorys. I didn't know they were in the same genus.
I have a ton of hickory on my farm. The deer don't eat the nuts, so it would be nice to replace with something that can produce some mast.
Phil

Phil,
Yes, they are in the same genus. I started looking into pecans a couple years ago and I even posted a thread here. I got posts just like the one above and then others who posted saying deer were falling all over themselves for pecans.
I couldn't figure this out at first. I have the same issue as you. My hickory trees are dependable producers of mast, but only squirrels use them here. The reason is that the shells are too hard for deer to crack. I started digging deeper into pecans and found that one of the characteristics that are used to rate commercial grade pecans is shell thickness. Then the light bulb went off. That could account for the contradictory views folks have on pecans and deer. Both are probably right, some have thick shelled pecans and others thin shelled.
Since they are in the same family as hickory, I'm sure the nuts are going to seem similar to deer. I think it is likely that it will take deer time to get used to a new food source just like it did when I introduced turnips. However, I'm guessing the first time we get an acorn crop failure and deer are willing to try anything, they will find them.
The old guy who has been grafting for wildlife for over 30 years sent me persimmon scions from trees that drop later in the year. He says that if he shakes a pecan tree and doesn't pickup the pecans that day, they will all be gone by morning. So, I'm guessing he has some thin shelled pecans.
He sent me a few scions along with the persimmons to try. Since I have way more hickory trees than persimmon trees, if I have the same experience he has, pecans will be my next big effort for trees.
I've been studying different methods for bark grafting them that I plan to try.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Phil, I can't count the number of producing pecan trees I have on mÿ land. I have never seen deer feed on the pecans. If you wanna try next year I can get u plenty of scions.

Todd,
As I said in my post above, I'm coming to the conclusion that not all pecans are equal. You will probably have even more luck grafting to native pecan trees. If my efforts work out, I'll be happy to send you scions!
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Well, I couldn't take it any more! I just expanded my pecan project. I found a boat load of hickory trees on my property. A friend sent me a few pecan scions to try. My plan is to start grafting them tomorrow. I've been reading and watching videos specifically on grafting pecans.
Yesterday while cruising the internet, I found a pecan farm that sells scions. I called them up and chatted with the owner. I told him what my application was. I told him my priorities:
1) Thin shell so they are easy for deer to crack and eat.
2) Disease resistance since these are not going to be in an orchard and I don't plan to spray them.
3) Productivity

He recommended the exact variety that my buddy had sent me! He also recommended a pollenator for them. So, I ordered 15 one foot sticks from him. He say you get two grafts from a stick, so that is 30 more trees I can graft.
I'm gonna have my hands full over the next few weeks!
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

My dad has a huge paper shell tree that is always loaded with huge pecans and very soft shells. I had him collect me some scions and he put them in the fridge. My mom cleaned the fridge about a week before I needed them and thought they were trash and threw them away. So I guess I will have to wait another year to graft the pecans. I don't know if you can bud graft pecans. Might have to research that.
todd

I didn't happen to see anything on bud grafting, but I wasn't looking for it. The two that jumped out as I was looking for information are the bark graft (sometime call an inlay graft with pecans), and a 4 flap graft. The 4 flap requires the scion and root stock to be similar in diameter.

 

[yoderjac]

Todd,
Just found a video on patch budding pecans:

 

[yoderjac]

So I found a local pecan orchard here in Stillwater, Oklahoma and contacted them. Talked to the lady and it's amazing she said she can't keep the deer out of her pecans. I ended up getting 15 scions from her---Pawnee Variety. She said they are heat and very disease resistant pecans with a very thin shell. Looks like I will be grafting some native pecans weekend after next as she only mails out on Mondays.
I will keep you posted on how they do.
todd

Pawnee is a very good variety for the South. We use it almost exclusively when grafting native trees.

Guys later this winter I can collect and provide Pawnee scions for anyone who wants some. Have a few Mowhawk too and a few other varieties I can't remember. My Dad has been grafting for as long as I can remember and we have lots of trees. Did not know that they were good for deer as our deer never touch them. Just thought it was something they didn't like. Crows are our biggest nemesis. They will set in the trees and eat the pecans while they're green and pick a tree clean in a matter of days. The crows like the pecans because they have a paper thin shell. His primary grafting technique of choice is the four flap graft or banana graft.

 

[yoderjac]

Pawnee is a good pollination partner for Kanza which is the variety I'm trying.
I still hear conflicting reports on whether deer use pecans or not. I was figuring it was a shell thickness thing, but maybe there is something else at play.
The guy who gave me the Kanza scions tells me that if he shakes a tree and doesn't collect the nuts, the deer will have them cleaned up by morning.

 

[yoderjac]

Started grafting pecans to hickory today:
Before:

After:

A Closeup:

 

[yoderjac]

So I found a local pecan orchard here in Stillwater, Oklahoma and contacted them. Talked to the lady and it's amazing she said she can't keep the deer out of her pecans. I ended up getting 15 scions from her---Pawnee Variety. She said they are heat and very disease resistant pecans with a very thin shell. Looks like I will be grafting some native pecans weekend after next as she only mails out on Mondays.
I will keep you posted on how they do.
todd

Pawnee is a very good variety for the South. We use it almost exclusively when grafting native trees.

Look good Jack. Be sure to keep us updated with the progress.

 

[yoderjac]

Notice that there are a few feeder branches left on the tree with pecan grafting which is different than with persimmon grafting. I'm told that if you don't the scions can grow too fast and break off.
These branches are uses as a throttle for the scions. If the scions are growing too slowly, you remove those branches to speed them up.
Also, they say to leave the aluminum foil in place until at least August. If ants are working the graft, you can remove it, but it not, you can leave it on for the entire first growing season.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I've got to remember to get out and take some pics of some of the grafts my Dad and I did this year.

Jack,
Did you transplant any of your seed grown persimmons? I had two trays of persimmons in rootmakers that I planned to transplant this spring. All but one plant froze out in our crazy winter temperatures. I'm now three plants in three years of trying to grow and transplant seedlings. This fall I may switch to direct seeding... don't see how I could do any worse. The good news is I keep finding new wild persimmons to graft. If I get 100% takes this year I'll have 45 grafted persimmons. The oldest will be on their fourth leaf. They are just not in the best locations from a hunting standpoint.

 

[yoderjac]

Tick,
It sounds like you are doing well with grafting. I have not had great success starting them from seed so far. I did some risky things last year. I think there are two possibilities:
1) Some accumulation of risky things caused my poor success.
2) Persimmons don't take to root pruning well and regardless of what I did, I would have not had good success.
So, here are the risks I took:
1) I waited until I had already transplanted all of my chestnuts from rootmaker cells before I purchased the persimmon seeds, so they got a late start. They did great in the cells and I planted around 500 at the farm directly from the cells and gave another hundred away. I took 40 of them and transplanted them into 1 gal rootbuilder II pots.
2) The second risk I took was planting time. Just based on my schedule, I had not choice. I planted all of those trees while they were actively growing in September.

So, early this spring, I decided to try my hand at bench grafting. By Christmas time the persimmon in the 1 gal pots were dormant and had enough chill hours. I brought both them and my Jujubes in at that time. I knew they were undersized for bench grafting, but I wanted the experience.
When I cut my first persimmon, I found it was dead. I continued cutting down the trunk until I found green. It was generally in the lower half of the top growth before I saw green cambium. These trees were so young that most all of the buds were near the terminal end.
All the jujube leafed out well. None of the persimmon grafts were successful (not that I expected much). Only a few of the 40 leafed out and a few of those died. Only two or three of them will survive. A few of them regenerated new top growth from the root system.
When I checked out the planted persimmons this spring in the field, they looked pretty much the same. I did not do an actual count but I'd say the less than 10% had leafed out on my first pass. Last weekend, I started seeing more with leaves in the field. Many were browsed last winter. I think it was rabbits more than deer. If I had to guess right now, I'd say survival rates in the field will be between 10% and 20%.
I've started more this spring. I've started them a bit earlier, but next year, I plan to start them indoors under lights. I also tried starting a few in 1 quart and 1 gal rootbuilder II containers. I want to see if letting the tap root get a bit longer before root pruning helps at all with survival.
If I had to guess, I'd say the biggest issue was them only being 6" tall and very thin when our unusually hard winter hit.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Back on the pecans. For you other guys trying this, I may not have done enough research before I started. Evidently all hickories are not created equal. I'm still going to proceed regardless of my Hickory variety, but my chances of success may not be as great as I thought.
I posted to a fruit and nut tree forum and got some unexpected responses: http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/fruit/msg051657569293.html?6

 

[yoderjac]

Jack--when I was a kid my dad and his best friend grafted some paper shell pecan scions to hickory trees. They had success doing it but I don't know what variety of hickory they were grafting onto.
Interesting on some varieties working and some not.
I guess you'll find out in a few months whether your scions take or not.
I will be grafting my pecan scions onto native pecans but I was going to graft a few onto some smaller hickory trees that I had around my main food plot just to see if they take.
todd

Todd,
I'm not giving up by a long shot. Keep in mind that the guys on the other forum are generally horticulture hobbyists. They know a lot about how things are usually done but not necessarily why. I haven't gotten a straight answer over there as to whether they don't believe the grafts will take or if there is some other issue.
I'm sure that if one were starting from scratch, planting rootstock, there is a good reason they it is done the way they do it. We are in a different position managing for wildlife. I was hoping to get a few more variety names that deer eat to research, but that didn't seem to pan out.
Their comments only make me slightly nervous. I will be taking a hickory ID book with me this week to the farm to make sure I know what kind of hickory I'm using.
By the way, I stopped at Lowes last night and bought some grafting supplies for pecans. First I bought a tiny 3" hand plane (http://www.lowes.com/pd_117969-16878-63286_0__). I don't like to think the bark with my grafting knife since that is heavier work and I keep it razor sharp. I've been using my pocket knife, but I think the tiny hand plane will be perfect.
I also purchased some amber shellac and a tiny paint applicator (http://www.lowes.com/pd_445086-1077-1859464_0__). The first method I used was electrical tape and parafilm-M on the scion. This week I plan to try a small electric stapler/brad nailer I have instead of the tape, and the shellac instead of the parafilm-M.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I've been doing a little more digging. It seems like there are two issues:
1) Pecan grows faster than hickory, so the top of a pecan grafted to hickory can outgrow the bottom and the can break. I'm not to worried abou this one.
2) There are both 32 and 64 chromosome trees. There may be graft compatibility issues if you graft a 32 to a 64 or vise versa. Pecan is 32 as is shagbark, as is bitternut. Mockernut is 64.
I guess I need to identifiy my specific variety of Hickory!

 

[yoderjac]

hopefully you got a 32:)
I got some small penny nails to use and packed my grafting box with some plastic sandwich bags. My scions should arrive tomorrow so I will be out grafting this weekend--God Willing.
todd

You must be special (close). He just shipped mine today.

 

[yoderjac]

I got 11 more persimmon trees grafted today. I only have a few more persimmons to go. Then Jujube and more Hickory/Pecan.
I also did a quick look at some hickories today. I think I have multiple varieties. I'm pretty sure some are mockernut and some are pignut.
I took a chance today and drove home from the farm in hopes the pecan scions would be in. In fact they were, but I'm stuck up north now with everyone leaving the city early for Memorial Day. It will be 2300 before I get out of this area.
I've got several days of grafting ahead of me...

 

[yoderjac]

I'm done with my persimmon grafting for this year. I grafted a total of 25 trees with 55 scions.
I got 8 more pecans grafted to hickory again today. I've been using a hickory identification guide and I think we have at least two kinds of hickory, Pignut and Mockernut. I'm amazed at how little is known about the grafting compatibility between hickory varieties. I guess I'm gonna learn by doing.
For the last few days, I've been using electrical tape to secure the scions to the rootstock and parafilm to protect the scions. Today, I tried a modified version of the nail & shellac method. I have an old Harbor Freight battery operated nailer/stapler. It will use brads or staples. I decided to use staples. I prepared the scions just as before except I did not cover them with parafilm. When I installed them, I simply drove a staple through the bark, scion and into the tree. It seems to hold them tight. After adding the aluminum foil and plastic bags as normal, I applied shellac to the scions. The little paint applicator worked great!
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

good deal. Can't wait to see the success on the pecan/hickory mating.
todd

 

[yoderjac]

Tick,
It sounds like you are doing well with grafting. I have not had great success starting them from seed so far. I did some risky things last year. I think there are two possibilities:
1) Some accumulation of risky things caused my poor success.
2) Persimmons don't take to root pruning well and regardless of what I did, I would have not had good success.
So, here are the risks I took:
1) I waited until I had already transplanted all of my chestnuts from rootmaker cells before I purchased the persimmon seeds, so they got a late start. They did great in the cells and I planted around 500 at the farm directly from the cells and gave another hundred away. I took 40 of them and transplanted them into 1 gal rootbuilder II pots.
2) The second risk I took was planting time. Just based on my schedule, I had not choice. I planted all of those trees while they were actively growing in September.

So, early this spring, I decided to try my hand at bench grafting. By Christmas time the persimmon in the 1 gal pots were dormant and had enough chill hours. I brought both them and my Jujubes in at that time. I knew they were undersized for bench grafting, but I wanted the experience.
When I cut my first persimmon, I found it was dead. I continued cutting down the trunk until I found green. It was generally in the lower half of the top growth before I saw green cambium. These trees were so young that most all of the buds were near the terminal end.
All the jujube leafed out well. None of the persimmon grafts were successful (not that I expected much). Only a few of the 40 leafed out and a few of those died. Only two or three of them will survive. A few of them regenerated new top growth from the root system.
When I checked out the planted persimmons this spring in the field, they looked pretty much the same. I did not do an actual count but I'd say the less than 10% had leafed out on my first pass. Last weekend, I started seeing more with leaves in the field. Many were browsed last winter. I think it was rabbits more than deer. If I had to guess right now, I'd say survival rates in the field will be between 10% and 20%.
I've started more this spring. I've started them a bit earlier, but next year, I plan to start them indoors under lights. I also tried starting a few in 1 quart and 1 gal rootbuilder II containers. I want to see if letting the tap root get a bit longer before root pruning helps at all with survival.
If I had to guess, I'd say the biggest issue was them only being 6" tall and very thin when our unusually hard winter hit.
Thanks,
Jack

Tick,
As I've been traveling around the property this week grafting pecans to hickory, I've been looking for persimmon seedlings I planted. I'm now estimating my success rate to be much higher than I previously thought. Much seemed to depend on the size of the seedling when I planted it and the location. I found a few spots with over 90% success. Having looked at a lot more of my plantings now, I'd guess my success rate was around 50%.
Thanks,
Jack