Sex Change Operation - Transfered from QDMA forum

[yoderjac]

Just curious, did you use rooting hormone on the cuttings? I will be trying this shortly myself.

Yes. I used Hormone 3 I got from big rock. If you scroll up on the post, you will see what I did.
Of the two left, one I expect to go south. The other, which is small one, is really looking good.
I wish I had marked it, but I wounded one of them before applying the rooting hormone. I could swear it was the one doing the best.
As I said, I ordered a cloning machine. When it comes in, I plan to use it on another batch of persimmons. I plan to wound half of them before applying the rooting hormone and mark them to see if it makes a difference.
Even if both survive, I'll only be at a 20% success rate, so learn from my failures since I haven't figured out how to have success yet.

 

[yoderjac]

All of the persimmon cuttings I tried have now died. They are definitely hard to root. There was very little rooting when I a post mortem. I have considered a few options including air layering. I have seen a number of forum posts on various forums where folks had said they were going to try air layering persimmon trees, but none have come back and reported success. So, I decided to give a cloning machine a try. I figure that if nothing else, I will be able to watch root development using this technique without damaging anything. Right now I'm trying dormant scions, but come spring I may try new actively growing wood.
My cloning machine thread is here: http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55506.
Here is the information specifically related to the persimmons:
My last surviving persimmon shriveled up and died, so I conducted a post mortem on them today. They all looked pretty much like this:

As you can see, there was very little rooting. Perhaps if I had kept them on the heating pad longer and waited longer before putting them in the greenhouse, they might have done better.
We will see if the cloning machine can do any better.
Here it is:

It has a plastic reservoir that holds 2 1/2 gal of water. There is a small water pump that sits in the bottom of the tank. The power cord exits through a pre-drilled hole with a rubber grommet above the water line. PVC plumbing is used to direct the out put of the pump to spray tips mounted on top (yellow in the picture).

The lid which just sits on top has 25 cloning sites. There is a neoprene plug for each site. The picture above shows the lower left two sites empty, the lower right 3 sites with cuttings inserted, and the rest of the sites with the neoprene plugs with no cuttings.
You simply fill the unit with purified water, adjust the pH, add cloning fluid and nutrient solution and you are ready to go. The next post will show my first use with the persimmons.
I used a variety of persimmon scions for this. I took them off of a local common persimmon female tree at the farm. I was afraid to use any of the improved variety scion wood I received since it is precious, at least until I get a few trees of it under cultivation. Here is a typical scion I started with.

Notice the yellow on the top end. Once of the things I considered that it takes so long for persimmons to root, it is very for them to dry out. So, after I cut them from the trimmings, I dipped the top end into some grafting seal. I did this with most of the scions. I also decided to leave the terminal buds on some of the scions for variety. Those are pretty thin scions, but I wanted to be sure I had a variety of one and two year wood.
Continued...

 

[yoderjac]

After making a 45 degree cut, based on some of the reading I've done, I decided to wound the scions but scraping the bark off until the cambium layer was showing. You can see the slight green tint in the picture.

The directions for the cloning machine just call for the liquid cloning solution. But since persimmons are so hard to root, I decided to dip each scion in rooting hormone before starting the cloner up. I know it will wash off, but it will then be part of the solution. Here is the scion with the rooting hormone and inserted in the neoprene plug.

Here is the cloning machine filled with scions and ready to go:

The directions suggest you place the cuttings a foot or so under a fluorescent light. Some cloning machines come with a hood to help control humidity and keep the cuttings from drying out. This unit does not. A hood restricts the size of the cuttings you can use. So, I decided to simply place the cloning unit inside one of my indoor greenhouses. This lets me use larger cuttings. I also decided to leave the lights off for a while to slow top growth.
The instructions say that you should see roots in 3 to 10 days, but the reading I've done says it can take 30 days for hard to root species like persimmon.

 

[yoderjac]

The cloning experiment with dormant persimmon scions failed and the details are on this thread: http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55506
I had planned to start grafting this weekend, but after an exchange with David Osborn I think I might wait a week. My trees are leaved out pretty well and I could probably do it but he advises to wait. I was worried because I remember the trees that I grafted later last year had more failures than those grafted earlier. However when I looked at my records, it was late May when I grafted my later ones.
Instead, I just took a look at the trees I grafted last year today. I took pictures of two sets:

Both sets are doing very well. Both pics were taken May 2nd.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

This weekend I did some more persimmon grafting. First, here are some more of the trees I grafted last year:

I started with a large male tree between fields G3 and G4. Special thanks to Ticrancher who was kind enough to send me some Prok and 100-45 improved variety scions in February.

Since the tree was so large, I decided to use multiple scions to make sure I have at least one take. The front left scion in the picture above is 100-45 and the other three are Prok.
Next I went to the cluster of trees on the east side of our pipeline field G3 and decided to try again on two of the trees that had failed grafts last spring. Once I was sure the grafts has failed, I let some water sprouts near the top of the tree grow to keep the tree alive. I cut them off again just below the new branches. Since these trees had failed in the past, I did not want to chance improved scions on them. I have a buddy with some a couple prolific common persimmon trees in his yard that lives about 25 miles away from the farm. I used some scions I collected from his tree for these two to add some genetic diversity:

 

[yoderjac]

Next I went to a cluster of male persimmons along the pipeline field called G8. I found that cluster late last spring. I tried to graft a few of the trees but only one scion took. It is the larger tree on the far right of the picture below. I had two Prok and two 100-45 scions left at this point. I picked the best of the rootstock for these improved varieties and used a mix of scions from my buddies yard and from the same prolific persimmon female I used last year.

I did a few things different this year based on lessons learned from last year. First, I cut all the trees at a very slight angle. The intent is to ensure water drains off quickly and does not pool. Second, I did not use grafting rubbers this year. I decided just to use the parafilm. I found it was strong enough that if I overlapped it it held the scions in place nicely. I also put a little of Doc Farwell's grafting seal on the sides of the bark cuts before using the parafilm. Last year I left the terminal buds on the scions. This year, I cut them off and dabbed a little grafting seal on the top of each scion. I also applied it more liberally to the wound and even made a second application after it dried. While all the scions from last year that took are leafed out and doing well, I did find some insect damage and rot around some of the wounds. I'm taking more care to prevent this now.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

The fastest way to a fruit producing tree is to graft a desirable female variety to any 1 to 3 inch wild fence row persimmon. Just follow the grafting advice of this Stephan Hayes YouTube video. Of course we will be grafting persimmon to persimmon and most of us will graft without the English accent.

In an ideal situation with good soil, competition removed and full sun, the grafted tree can be dropping persimmons in the third autumn.
MISSING PIC
This 2013 persimmon grafting project is shows green buds after only three weeks and should be dropping fruit by the fall of 2016.

 

[yoderjac]

Wow! You are doing better than me! I just checked mine today. It has been three weeks and none of mine show any green. One of the Prok scions you sent me has a bud that is just starting to bulge a bit.

 

[yoderjac]

That’s the power of sweet Missouri rain… 11 inches of rain! Plus I cheated; spread 3 cups of 12-12-12 in March to get the roots turbocharged.

Tickrancher,
Presuming you have more than one of those scions take on a larger diameter tree like that, have you ever kept more than one? I presume the reason that only one is chosen to be a keeper by most folks is that eventually you would end up with structural problems with the tree. I presume on a tree that large, the root system produces much more energy that all three scions could consume for the first few years.
Last year, I waited until February to select a winner and prune. My logic was that the other scions were not really robbing energy from the selected scion over that first year, pruning is better done during the dormant period, and that way I could use the new growth on the pruned scions for scions this spring. I found that these were much larger in diameter than the new growth scions from my native unmanaged female.
Does that make sense?

 

[yoderjac]

Yes, I would agree with that. Combining maintenance pruning and scion collection is the way to go. The only thing I could add is that if all three grafts take I will leave the best and at some point in the summer, pinch the ends of the others. That way if you get some secondary growth the energy will go to the best shoot.
If you have an existing tree and know you are going to want to take scions from it, cut it back and fertilize in February. The next year the scions will be fatter with the buds spaced and healthy.

I have a tree that was about 2 inches in diameter when originally grafted, so it only got two scions. I intended to cut one back but never did get to it. It still has both of the original scions growing and has developed into an open vase peach tree shape. Not ideal, but at this point I may let it go and see how it works out. Compared to other fruit trees, pruning is less of an issue with persimmons because most varieties will shed branches that don’t get enough sun anyway. It’s one more reason persimmons are easier to maintain than apple trees.
It will be interesting to see how many years the superior growth from excess root reserves lasts.

 

[yoderjac]

This year, presuming my grafts take, I may leave several on for at least two years and just prune them back. I can't see how that could hurt with the root system of a larger tree providing energy. This would provide two years worth of quality scions of some of the varieties you sent me.

 

[yoderjac]

It has been one more week. We had a huge downpour today but it stopped long enough for me to go check the grafted trees. Only one was showing any signs of life. It is the largest tree with the 3 Prok and one 100-45 scions:

If you look closely at the top of the scion closest to you in the picture you will see two small specs of green near the bud. Not definitive, but a good sign. Notice the tape came off this scion. I decided to let it go as is for now.
Last year, I started grafting a bit later on May 19th and it was an early spring. I had pretty good success with trees grafted that week, but poor success with trees grafted a week or two later. This year I started on May 10th. It was a late spring this year, but my trees were fully leafed out on the 10th.
Time will tell if this made a difference. (One more note: The trees with the poor success rate that I grafted last year also got the scion runts which may have been the bigger issue than time. I did not discover the trees until later, had not planned for them, and had already used my best scions.)
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

It is now June 14 and I'm checking the persimmon grafts. I'm a bit surprised. I'm not seeing any progress yet from the largest tree I grafted:

It is way too early to declare defeat, but I thought I'd see some progress by now. Even more surprising, when I checked two of the smaller trees I did see some signs of acceptance:

(100-45 Scion)

(PROK Scion)
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Cool looking Jack. I was at the farm today and noticed about 6 or 7 new persimmon whips that came up in a fence row this spring. I may have to call on you to help when they get old enough to determine the sex.

The only way I know to determine sex is by looking at the blossoms in the spring. I'm learning that it can take 8+ years for some native persimmons to blossom. I'm also learning that sex doesn't really matter. Just graft a known scion on and you are good to go!

 

[yoderjac]

That's what I was thinking about just grafting some scions. That way you can get several different cultivars. How long would you let a volunteer grow before grafting to it?

Some folks bench graft rootstock that is one year old. The trees I've been grafting are 10 to 25 feet tall and 1" to 6" in diameter.
I just bought a bunch of persimmon seed that I'm starting in rootmakers and plan to plant this fall. I plan to just stick these in the ground by the hundreds after the logging operation and let them go. I will wait at least a few years before grafting. There is no sense wasting my time until the trees become well established. I still have some native trees I an graft. The larger the tree, the more energy from the root system that is available to drive growth after the graft.
If you are interested in different varieties for deer, you may want to keep you eye on this thread where I'll document what I learn from the expert: http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57010
I'm learning that it is easy to get caught up in varieties that have little value for deer.

 

[yoderjac]

Jack, from what you have learned so far. What would be the top three or four cultivars which would start dropping around the first of November and continue well on into November?
Thanks - Steve

Steve,
What I know so far is in the other thread. The answer seems to be: Only American, not Oriental. One hybrid, Nikita's Choice. The named varieties of American persimmon were improved for human consumption, not wildlife. I'm starting to believe the key is to keep track of prolific local trees and note drop time and use scions from them. In the other thread, I'm encouraging folks to start a notebook on their trees, and we can all swap scions in Feb.
I've established a contact who had done this for many years and has offered me scions. Once established, I'll be glad to pay it forward to others.
Last year I used scions from one of my local trees. This spring, Tickrancher was nice enough to send me Prok and 100-45 that I used as well. If you want to eat persimmons, there are lots of options with named varieties. However, the expert has told me he has stopped using all these.
As I learn more before next grafting season, I'll post it. For now, I'm tending to my existing grafts and planting future rootstock from seed.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

It is now June 22nd. I got a chance to check the persimmon grafts this weekend. I'm a bit disappointed. I got great results last year, but this year, I only got 2 of the grafts to take. The ones that have taken look pretty good, but I don't know why the others didn't take.

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
Sorry to hear of the grafting problems. I was a little concerned when I read your May 12 post.

I have been told that it is very important to wrap the graft as tightly as possible when bark or “rind” grafting persimmons. I know these grafts are made on apples without the use of budding rubbers or plant tie tape. However, persimmons for some reason need extra firm contact between graft and stock. I’ll have a buddy hold one end of the garden tape while I lean into the bark wrap with all my chubby strength.

Maybe that is it. I did wrap the parafilm very tightly, but perhaps it would have been better to use the grafting rubbers. The older gentlemen that has been grafting persimmons for wildlife for 30 years told me he uses flagging tape because it is less expensive and has some stretch to it. I didn't try that this year. Live and learn I guess...
By the way, the scion that is all leafed out in the picture above is the 100-45 you sent.

 

[yoderjac]

It is now June 29th. It really looks like all but the two grafts above failed this spring. These two are doing well. Here are the latest pics:

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

July 3rd Pics: