Sex Change Operation - Transfered from QDMA forum

[yoderjac]

Turns out there were 12 trees in this cluster. One thing I noticed was that some persimmons are behind others in terms of bloom. I found one tree that was deeper into the woods and got less sun than those on the edge. It had small green blossoms that were completely closed. By comparison, the trees on the edge we flowering:

I ended up grafting 5 of these trees before running out of scions:

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Just another update. I got my first sign of success today:

Closer Look:

It you look closely at the scion on the left (middle in the top pic), the top bud is starting to open and show some green! This is by far the largest rootstock I tried. Perhaps that is why it is showing signs first. Time will tell how the others do.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

These photos of 2011 persimmon grafting can give you a rough timeline for what to expect. Grafting was April 29 and the first photo is from May 16.
MISSING PIC
As you can see 19 days after grafting the buds are just starting to push through the Parafilm.
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On May 23, 24 days post graft, the first leaves are starting to unfold.
Two of the three grafts broke off during the summer. This persimmon is on a well-used trail and deer seem the likely cause of the damage however it might have been wind or birds perching on the grafts. At the time the damage was discovered I used a cedar post and some long zip ties to support the surviving graft. This was intended to be temporary but remained for almost a year. It proved ugly but effective.
MISSING PIC
The detail photo was taken August 26, 119 days after the graft. It is healing and terminal bud is above the browse line.
MISSING PIC
The last photo was taken June 1, 2012. No fruit this year, but with a good growing season I’m hoping for a few PROK persimmons next year. The tree is about 8 foot tall, 13 months after grafting.

 

[yoderjac]

Outstanding pics! Thanks! Looks like you had much larger scions to start with than I did. Dave said to shoot for pencil diameter scions, but the largest I had available were much smaller. I hope mine turns out as well as yours.
Also, did you stake your somehow? Dave suggested that it is easy for birds and other animals to break off the scions if you don't stake them. I haven't figured out how I want to do that yet. I can't decide if I would harm the tree if I screwed a support into the rootstock or if I should tye wrap it on or brace it from the ground. I made all my cuts about chest high because Dave suggested curious deer will sometimes tear them down if they are lower.

 

[yoderjac]

I don’t think the size of the scion will make much difference. Sealing the moisture in and getting good contact between the scion and the tree are more critical. My scions were about pencil sized on average but several were much smaller.
MISSING PIC
I used the smaller examples for saddle grafting on seedlings and tried to match the size of the scion to the sapling diameter. This resulted in some grafts being higher or lower on the tree. Matching the size seemed more important than grafting at a perfect height. The larger scions were used on bark grafts.
I no longer stake or fence my persimmons. The leaves are not a preferred browse but deer will grab an occasional leaf. What we need is something stronger than the leaf stem so the leaf comes off but the scion remains attached. This year I have been using green doll rods from the local garden center and attaching them with cable (zip) ties. They don’t go into the ground at all. I put the doll rod against the tree with the top of the rod higher than any new growth. Attach it with two cable ties pulled tight around the rootstock. Use one tie around the new growth on the scion being careful not to do any damage.
MISSING PIC
Finding your formally growing scion on the ground can hack a person off. However the graft will only need support until July so you don’t need anything too elaborate. The photo above shows a cedar post used to support a graft. The post is just hanging by the ties and keeps the scion from flexing when under stress from wind, birds and deer. The photo is from late August and at this point in the growing season the graft is plenty strong and the support could be removed. The cedar was handy at the time but really was way more strength and bulk than needed. I’ll get a photo showing a scion zip tied to a plastic rod for support.

The biggest problem with a persimmon graft is that even though the graft looks strong and there is 8” to 12” of new growth, the area where the scion joins the rootstock will be surprisingly weak for months. A tug from a curious deer or fat bird landing on the graft will put 2 months of growth on the ground. This sounds worse than it is because persimmon leaves are not a favored food, at least in NE Missouri. Trees that are isolated in fields are most at risk. I only tie up those in high deer travel areas or lonely trees in open fields. Using doll rods and zip ties can give them a measure of support. This has worked well to date.
MISSING PIC
Note that the rod extends above the new growth to provide a sturdy landing area for birds. The photos are of saddle grafts but it works equally well on bark grafts. Be careful not to over tighten when attaching the top, the graft is fragile.
MISSING PIC
Later in the summer you may want to cut and rezip or add another tie to support new growth. Of course you could use string, wire, or gardeners tape in place of the zip ties. But I find it easier to tighten the bottom of the rod with the zip ties. Monitor the tree and check for girdling caused by the support or the graft wrap. Mostly this is not a problem but occasionally you get a tree that takes off and you need to make adjustments.

 

[yoderjac]

I'm beginning to see some signs of life. The failure rate looks like it will be pretty high, but if I get a few, I'll be happy. Here are some pics:

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

More pics:

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Patience, a watched graft never grows… er… something like that. By this fall you’ll have enough takes to be happy with the results. It is great to see some persimmon discussion. Growing persimmons is easier and less work than apples.

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
Looks like your having some success with the graphs. Soon you will have many more producing persimmions. I'm having alittle success with my seeds as well. Out of 36 seeds in 18 individual rootmaker cells I currently have 9 sprouting or upwards to 4" tall trees. Going to tranplant them in the fall. When I do would it be better to put them in tree tubes or leave them without tubes? I also have sawtooths, white and other oaks I will plant in the same area with tree tubes.
Thanks,
Todd

Todd,
I did the seed thing years ago. I got very good success rates getting the seeds to grow. I just put them in the fridge for a couple weeks, scarified them, and planted them in potting soil in cups on my window seal. Later I transferred them to 5 gal buckets and grew them on my deck through the summer. In the fall, we planted them on Quantico MCB.
The problem is that you are talking 8 years or more for first fruits and I'm getting too old for that. The expert tells me you can see first fruits within 2 years using the grafting approach.
Looks like I'll be staking the scions that take in the next few weeks.
I'm glad to see your seeds are growing. That is a great way to go if you are young or are planting for the long term.

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
Hopefully I can gain some grafting experience in the next year or two. I would like to see someone do it personnally. I learn much more by hands on. So I may try to contact my forrester and see if he can assist. What I had planned to do was take some or maybe even most of these seedlings and attempt a graft off my trees that I know produce persimmions now. That way I know I get producing trees. Im planting for the long term anyway. We'll see what happens.
Thanks,
Todd

Sounds like a plan. I think think there are several factors in fruit production. First, I think you need a tree with and established root system that can transfer sufficient nutrients. It think this is why it take so many years for trees to produce. Of course, the tree also needs to be female (or perfect). Third, the tree needs to have the nutrients (and sun) available.
One would expect trees to be produced in equal numbers between male and female, but that has not been my experience. I seem to get a lot more male trees produced naturally than female. I'm not sure if this phenomenon is widespread or just that I have too little experience.
I think grafting your saplings using scions from known producing female trees will give you more female trees, I would not expect them to produce fruit until the rootstock is about the same age as a native female.
My hope is that by grafting to established male rootstock, the time to fruit is reduced.
I'm just learning and I'll continue to report back as things progress.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

My latest thoughts on staking. I've noticed in some of the previous posts, guys have been using rigid materials to stake these. I know the stress created in a trunk when it is blown by the wind helps strengthen it. I'm considering using PVC pipe as stakes for these. My thinking is that they will still get some stress from bending in the wind, but not enough that it will break.
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I would use whatever is handy, easy and cheap. The danger from breaks and pull outs is only during the first growing season. I doubt you’ll lose any grafts in the second leaf. Wind damage is not the same issue for persimmons as it is for apples. A free standing apple on dwarf rootstock could blow over, persimmons not so much.

 

[yoderjac]

I have now staked the trees where the grafts have taken. Here are the latest pics:

 

[yoderjac]

More pics:

 

[yoderjac]

My mature females now have persimmons about the size of cherries:

 

[yoderjac]

It has been another week. I checked the trees today. They are all really starting to sucker a lot, but they are easy to remove. I had a very pleasant surprise today. When I checked the last cluster of trees that I grafted with the weaker scions, at least one shows signs of success!

You have to look hard but there is a small green leaf!
This makes a total of 9 trees that have a legitimate chance to succeed if nothing goes wrong and there is at least one tree in each cluster.
Trees in the other clusters continue to show progress:

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Man I bet once those things get established they're gonna grow like crazy with a root sytem feeding them like those trees probably have.

Yep! That is why I went this route rather than planting persimmons.

 

[yoderjac]

Well, it has been another week and the news is mixed.
The Good News:[/B]
Most of the trees are doing well:

The So-So News:[/B]
The cluster of trees that I grafted late shows marginal improvement. There is no sign of the grafts taking except for one that has only grown an inch or two.
The Bad News:[/B]
One of the trees in this cluster had the new growth snipped off. You have to look closely but you can see it on the tree to the left. It looks bitten off. I can't tell what did it. I doubt it was a deer since it is over 6' off the ground. Perhaps a squirrel. I don't' know if it will survive or not.

It is almost July and the hot weather has set in. We hit triple digits today. So, I'm declaring any tree that has not had a graft take a failure and plan to stop removing suckers from them in the hopes those leaves will keep the rootstock alive until I can try again next year.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
I have two producing persimmion trees next to food plots. One for sure was almost completely surrounded by pine trees and most of the branches are currently located on one side of the tree. We cut timber this past fall and now the tree and several small one under it have full sunlight. And I intend to keep it that way. Question is will the other side of the tree start branching off? Or do I need to do something to make it branch out? Would cutting the top out do any harm? This tree is loaded with golf ball sized persimmions right now and leaning heavily to one side.
Also I believe I have found some additional persimmion trees(smaller ones) but I am unsure. I'll take some pictures and try to post in the plant Id section to see if that's truely what I have.
Thanks,
Todd

Todd,
I have the same issue. I have one female tree that is well developed, but was surrounded by pines. I cut down the surrounding trees and it is now filling out on the rear side and gaining some balance. However it was not real bad to start with.
On the other hand, I have another old female with a couple males that was growing through a cedar tree. The males had out grown the cedar, but the female is very scraggly. I'm not expert on this, just learning as I go, but my plan is to prune it this winter.
Based on the grafting I've done, persimmons are hard to kill. All of the trees that I cut down to graft this spring produce dozens of new shoots each week that I have to remove.
I would think that if you simply topped a persimmon at a desired height and sealed the wound, the tree would produce lots of new branches below the cut. One could then simply prune them to get the desires shape. This is just speculation, so hopefully someone with more experience will chime in.
By the way, the persimmons I grafted are doing well. Here is one cluster:

Even the one that was nipped off is producing foliage again:

It is the one on the left.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Here is the weekly picture update:

Everything seems on track!