Cloning Machine - Persimmons: Take 2 - Transferred from QDMA forum

[yoderjac]

My first thread on cloning was getting pretty long. Here is the link if you want background: http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55506
To summarize the first cloning machine thread, I tried dormant persimmon scions with zero success.
I am now starting my second attempt. I took herbaceous cuttings from my productive persimmon tree this evening. When I got home, I set up the cloning machine. Most of the cuttings are completely herbaceous, but I kept a little wood on 5 of the scions. The center row look like this:

The rest look like this:

Unfortunately, we have not had any rain for a week before I took the scions. You can see they are a bit limp. I removed many of the leaves to reduce transpiration. I put them in the indoor greenhouse under fluorescent lights. I dipped each one in rooting hormone before putting them in the machine.

Based on the reading I've done, I'm not expecting significant success with this, but I'd love to get at least one of these to root.
I also have a backup plan and I'll start a different thread for that.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I know that on a lot of larger leafed cuttings they will actually cut the leaves in half or so to reduce the amount of leaf area and thus limit the transpiration of water loss from the leaves.
Chris

Chris,
Thanks! I may give that a try. It was late last night and I was just trying to get them in the machine as soon as I could. I too think I have too much leaf matter. I will see how they look in a day or two and consider cutting leaves. I do have humidity control in the indoor greenhouse though.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I am a little confused on how your cloning machine works. Are the rooting ends of the cuttings just hanging in air space and are frequently sprayed with water by the machine?
Chris

Yes. They call them cloning machines, but I think it is more accurate to refer to them as subterranean irrigation systems. It is basically a small submersible garden pond pump pushing water though a PVC piping structure. The PVC piping structure has spray tips right under the plants. The pump runs continuously 24/7 constantly spraying the plants that are hanging in the are through the black neoprene holders. If you go to the beginning of the original cloning machine thread, you will find pictures. I also put an aquarium heater in mine to keep the water at a fairly constant temperature. The bottom portion of mine holds about 2 1/2 gal of water that is constantly recycled spraying on the plant bottoms. I put cloning solution into the water along with some nutrients.
With plants the are normally rooted from cuttings, you can get roots in just a few days. I put powered rooting hormone on mine because I'm using it for cuttings that are very hard to root.
The real thing I like about it is that I can learn from it. When I put cuttings in potting mix, the buds take off and leaf, but you don't know what is really happening below the soil. With this machine, I can try different amounts of rooting hormone, different kinds of cuttings, and so on and easily check progress below what would normally be the soil line without disrupting the plant. I can just pick up the top and look at root formation (or lack thereof).
Propagating persimmons using stem cuttings is not a commercially viable method. In my case, even if I can get a low success percentage, I'll be happy. A much more successful technique is supposedly to start them from root cuttings. If I can only get one or two started, I'll keep them in rootmaker containers and easily open them up and take root cuttings to start new trees when needed.
I'm also looking at other methods like starting rootstock from seed and grafting. I just ordered a pound of seed.

 

[yoderjac]

Something that I have heard, but haven't verified is that softwood cuttings require partial sunlight to develop roots. Obviously a lot of direct sunlight is not good, but it might be worth experimenting with various amounts of exposure to light.
Here is something else I think is worth trying if you attempt hardwood cuttings again. How about wrapping the "rooting portion" tightly in a layer of burlap? I know plants will develop roots when that portion is completely submerged, but just misting bare wood as your machine does seems "unnatural". Are you even sure this machine really works?:D I am just learning about cuttings and propagation. It seems to me that a plant would produce roots in response to contact stimulation. I have never seen roots develop in air, not saying it doesn't happen. Just seems like it is more probable for roots to develop if the plant is rooting into something.
Chris

Chris,
I think these machines are pretty well proven. My understanding is that many folks use them because they can start a lot of plants very quickly.
Here are a couple videos:
A couple units compared. The video shows them in clear plastic for demo purposes so you can see how it works. The actual units are opaque below the neoprene.

This is just someones personal review of the el cheapo unit I got.

I'm not sure if this will work with hard to root plants like persimmons or jujube, but I tried cuttings in media first and that failed. I'm not sure if one method is better than the other. As I said, the advantage I see here is that if I can get some success, I'll be able to easily check and compare differences in the cuttings, rooting hormone application, and such to figure out which methods work much faster than using media.
Thaks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
Have you tried "willow tea" in your cloning machine instead of water?

I have not, but I think willow tea is just another way to get to the same point. It has the same chemicals in it as rooting hormone.
I have done two things to encourage rooting. First, I directly applied rooting hormone to the stems before putting them in the machine. Second, I added a cloning solution (which is basically rooting hormone) to the water.
With easy to root cuttings, the cloning solution is enough. For these difficult to root cuttings like persimmon, I decided to use both.
I think the willow tea would play the same role as the cloning solution. It may be better or worse, I don't know, but I think it fills the same function.
If you think there is something specific to willow tea that makes it more effective than the commercial stuff, I'd love to learn more.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

No luck so far. It is now 6/6/2013 and there is no indication of rooting:

The tops aren't looking great, but they should last another week to see if rooting starts:

 

[yoderjac]

Well, something is happening, but I doubt it is anything good:

 

[yoderjac]

for as much work you have put in I was hoping for better results for you..... for as much time and effort that ytou have in this, you could get into true cloning, tissue culture isn't as hard as it sounds. few apical meristems and you are on your way.

Keep in mind, I've been working with some fairly hard to clone species, persimmon and Jujube. Once I got the hang of it, I had great success cloning elderberries from cuttings this past winter. I also had good success (4 out of 5) with yellow twig dogwood, another species easy to propagate by cuttings.
Also, keep in mind, I'm starting at the hardest end with persimmons and working my way toward easier things and starting at the easy end with Jujubes.
The reading I've done says the most success comes from root cuttings for both species. I've started with dormant wood and then green wood with persimmon. I started with root cuttings with the Jujubes. My success rate with Jujube just doubled:
It is now June 9, 2013. These root cuttings were planted on 3/16/2013 so it has almost been three months. I just went back and looked at the original post and it looks like I only planted 11, ten in cells and 1 in a 1 gal rootbuilder II pot. It looks like my success rate just went way up! I had only one out of the 11 show top growth until tonight.

If you take a close look, you will see the top of the original root sticking up on the right side of the cell. It was originally covered, but the Fafard 3B has settled over time with watering. The green sprout is coming from the left side of the cell, somewhere else on the root system. The leaf structure looks the same as the other Jujube that has had top growth for a while, so I'm pretty sure this is Jujube, not a wind blown seed of something else.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack, I grafted 10 jujubes onto root cuttings with good success this year. Cuttings from root suckers are readily available once you have an established jujube tree. Also, persimmons can be grafted onto cheap unimproved persimmon stock available from the MDC nursery. Dogwoods and elderberry can be easily grown from dormant cuttings pushed into the dirt I applaud your endeavor and scientific mind, but I have to wonder how much time and money I would spend when these other options are so readily available.

Dock,
Thanks! Good food for thought. Here is my thinking...
First, much of this is a learning experience for me and I love that.
Jujubes - The problem with Jujube is that most are grafted on to native stock and they readily propagate through root systems. They tend to form thickets but trees that grow from this native rootstock are poor quality thorny with little fruit. I want to avoid this issue in the long term. So, I found a Jujube improved variety (Tigertooth) that is grown on its own rootstock. I planted these several years ago. I now have at least two growing from root cuttings in rootmaker cells. My plan is to take at least one of these and stool it for future trees. My plan is to graft other varieties on to the tigertooth rootstock. That way, if the trees do propagate through the root system, the sibling trees will be tigertooth, and improved variety.
Persimmons - You are spot on. There is no problem grafting on to common rootstock. In fact, most of my efforts here are grafting female scions on to existing male trees in the field, both from my local prolific female tree as well as from some improved and other varieties. I am slowly running out of existing rootstock in the field. My though was to try to clone my female tree and produce rootstock for future grafting. That way, even if I did not graft a tree, I would know it was female and would have the same characteristics as my local female. That is why my first effort was dormant wood over the winter. It was what I had. I have not yet been able to get root cuttings from that tree. It is in a cluster and it would take some work to ensure the roots I pulled actually came from that tree, not an adjacent male.
However, I'm also pursuing the route you suggest. However instead of planting root stock from MDC or elsewhere, I was able to buy a boatload of stratified seed for a few dollars. I plan to put several hundred out this year. I will just let them go wild and field graft them years down the road.
Elderberries - Right again! My problem was a lack of planning and local source of cuttings. I bought some cuttings from BigRock and then another member sent me more. These were the first things I ever tried to start from cuttings and learned a lot. I started them indoors during the winter. Yes, I could have waited and shoved them into the ground, but my plan was to get a local source of cuttings established this year so I could do just that next year. I thought getting a jump on spring growth and since I was already setup for chestnut indoor growth, I just added them.
Dogwood - The yellow twig dogwood was just a freebie that John from BigRock send with one of my orders. I just started that along with the Elderberries and planted them around the house for landscaping.
So, you are absolutely right. I would not suggest others do what I'm doing necessarily, but I'm doing much of it to overcome specific issues and to learn. Other than the initial cost of the cloning machine, it doesn't cost me anything to try new things with it. The real reason I got it was so that I could see what was happening under the soil with root development on cuttings without digging them up. I can simply lift the lid and look for callusing and roots!
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

More good news! It is June 11th. First, here is a look at the second Jujube shown above now that it has put on a little more top growth:

The good news is that I have a third one showing life. This one has the root tip sticking above the mix as it has settled from watering over time. The bark has split and I think I see green emerging from the cambium layer:

I'm up to three now and encouraged about the others...

 

[yoderjac]

It is now June 20th 2013. When I plant trees by seed in rootmaker cells, they recommend 12-16 weeks before transplanting them to a larger container. I wasn't sure what to expect starting from root cuttings. So, A couple days ago, I decided to transplant the two largest and look at the root ball.
As it turns out, I had plenty of room in the cells for continued growth. Both plants seemed to handle the transplant well and are continuing to grow:

I still have one left in a cell, but I plan to wait a while before transplanting it:

 

[yoderjac]

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