Sex Change Operation - Transfered from QDMA forum

[yoderjac]

I got 18 more pecans grafted to Hickory this morning. I decided to take a break during the heat of the afternoon. With the long days, I plan to go out and finish this evening. I have 5 kanza scions and 3 pawnee scions left.
I sure hope this works after all the work I put in. I considered doing a few as a test, but it takes several years before you see nuts, so I decided to jump in rather than test.
I just wanted to give a report on the ease of method and the tools. I found the nail/shellac method much easier and faster. (Can't report on success rates until later). I used a Chicago Cordless brad nailer/stapler that I bought at Harbor Freight years ago rather than trying to nail by hand. I don't think they even sell the one I have any more, but you can get a better version from Home Depot: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ryobi-One-Plus-18-Volt-2-in-18-Gauge-Cordless-Brad-Nailer-P320/203810823
There is no messing with parafilm with this method so scion prep is faster. I found the 3" plane I mentioned above worthless. It clogs with wood easily. Most of my trees small enough with thin enough bark that I didn't need to shave the bark anyway. The little paint applicator is outstanding for applying the shellac. Using the stapler, I found this method much faster and the scions are just as secure. I was worried about splitting but I had no such issues even with small scions.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack--I read on one website where you can use a staple gun instead of a nail. Do you think that would work?

 

[yoderjac]

Jack--I read on one website where you can use a staple gun instead of a nail. Do you think that would work?

I think it depends on the staple gun and the staple length. The stapler I used worked great. I'm not sure if a hand powered stapler would work. Those staples are generally wider and not as deep as the ones I'm using. These are much heavier duty than a hand powered stapler uses.

With some of my larger scions, I don't think a staple gun would even make it into the tree.
I wish they still sold the cheap Harbor Freight unit I have. The Ryobi version at Home Depot looks like a better quality version of what I have. I'm sure it would work.
I finished up grafting last night and planted 36 persimmon seedlings this morning. I now have 40 persimmons grafted and 43 pecans grafted.
Here is a picture of one of the pecan/hickory grafts:

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I went to the farm today to check the grafting and plant some more persimmon seedlings. To my surprise, a couple of my persimmon grafts are showing signs of life in less than 2 weeks:

While it is much to early to call these successful, it is clearly a good sign. I did see one pecan scion with a bud slightly swelling but that as close as it got with the pecans so far.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

looking good Jack. I am surprised at the success I have had for my first time grafting persimmons. I give you most the credit as your success and failures have made it easier for all of us.
todd

 

[yoderjac]

I met with an NRCS representative today to discuss our WHIP program. We chatted about a variety of thing from NWSG to breaks to food plots. He was especially interested in the grafting I've been doing and asked me to keep him posted on it. The guy was quite knowledgeable and will be a great resource for us as we continue to plan and implement.

 

[yoderjac]

I'm back at the farm planting more seedlings and checking grafts. The grafting success is much better than last year, but still not as good as I had hoped, but there is still more time for grafts to take.
Jujube:
I tried grafting two trees in the field, both were Redlands #4 scions on my native Tigertooth rootstock. On one, I attempted a whip & tongue graft and the other I used a bark graft. I checked them today. There are no signs of success with the whip & tongue graft, but the bark graft is leafing out nicely!

Pecans:
I'm grafting Kanza and Pawnee scions to native Hickory (Pignut and Mockernut). So far only 2 of the trees so any signs of taking. Here is the best:

It is still early and grafting between different trees in the same family could leaf out and then still fail, but this is at least a little encouragement.

Persimmons:
I was probably too optimistic with persimmons. I was expecting near 100% success. It is still too early to declare a success rate, but it is not looking great. Five of my largest diameter trees that I grafted with multiple scions show no signs of anything taking. I'm still holding out hope because my chainsaw had an issue and I had to take it to the shop. So, I grafted the smaller diameter trees first since I could easily cut them with a handsaw. So I'm still holding out hope for the larger trees. I have 7 smaller trees either leafed out or have green buds that are starting to open. In the past, I'd say over 95% of the trees I've grafted were successful if they got to this point. These 7 trees represent at least the following 5 varieties:
Szukis
Dahlke Jan
Wonderful
Chubs Doc
100-46
There are a couple that I need to go back to my notes to identify which scions took to know the specific variety. Just a couple Pics:

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

looking good. I bet the pecan is taking. I have not had one scion that started to leaf out fail so I bet you are good.
todd

Hey Jack--on the persimmons that you grafted three years ago, I believe you grafted two scions to each tree. Did you cut one off at the end of the growing season or did you happen to leave two on? I think on the smaller trees that I grafted two on and they both take I will definitely remove one but I am wondering on larger trees if the larger tree could handle leaving both scions. I am not worried about the root system but the healing at the graft site. If I leave both I am worried that there won't be as much "healing surface area"??
does that make sense?
todd

Todd,
In my first year, I followed David Osborn's instructions to a Tee, so I waited until the first dormant period and culled all but 1 scion from each tree.
Except on very small trees, the root system was supporting much more top growth than multiple scions produce for many years, so that is not the limiting factor.
I believe the long term issue for leaving more than one scion is the bad crotch angle's produced. They would eventually lead to a weak tree.
My plan for this year is to "farm" scions on larger trees. Eventually I will cull all but one scion, but I believe I can leave multiple scions in place for several years before they are large enough that crotch angle becomes an issue. In the mean time, I plan to prune them heavily during the dormant season but not remove them. This should provide great scions for my planted trees which should be ready for grafting in a few years. My plan would be for those trees to be producing scions about the time I have to cull all but one scion from the larger tree.
Will it work? I have not seen anyone do this, but I'm game to try.
I'm nor sure if faster healing of the large wound by keeping multiple scions will be a significant factor or not.
Thanks
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Well, I went back through my notes and rechecked the persimmon grafts today. In general, things may be going better than I thought. I grafted over a several week period. In general, it appears most of the scions that don't yet show signs of acceptance were grafted later than those that do, so it may simply be a matter of time.
I currently have 8 trees showing signs of success with at least one scion. The varieties showing signs of success are:
100-46
100-27S
Wonderful
U20A Celebrity
Mississippi Jan
Mississippi Nov
Szukis
Lena
Morris Burton #3
=======
Varieties not yet showing signs of success:
H120
DogDoc Nov
DogDoc Dec
Nikita's Gift
I don't expect success from Nikita's Gift. The scions were moldy and only 1 small one was even still alive at grafting time. H120 was not grafted until the second week, so I still have hope for it.
Conspicuously missing from the success list is DogDoc Nov & DogDoc Dec.
I used quite a few of your scions Todd and they all seemed to be in nice shape. I don't know if your scions are just slower to take or if there is some incompatibility between our trees.
You wouldn't happen to have Texas persimmon would you? As I understand it, they may not be graft compatible with other persimmons. Have you grafted scions from trees sent from others to your trees yet? Your scions do look a bit different than the other persimmon scions I have received.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Well, things are looking much better for the persimmon grafting a week later! I have one tree that had a loose scion; I presume a climbing animal or bird did it. I have one large tree that I tried to graft in the middle of a thunderstorm that has no scions that took. I was rushing to get out of the rain and may have missed something. I have two small trees that were very small, about a half inch in diameter or so, that have not taken.
Other than that every tree I grafted has at least one scion that took and many have more than one. I have 14 different varieties or individual tree scions that have taken so far.
Here are just a few pics:

By the way, the DogDoc scions are now taking well. It was just coincidence that I had grafted them later.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

your grafts look awesome!
glad my okie scions are taking off for ya! I hope they produce like the trees that I took them off of and hope they are some late dropping persimmons.
good job
todd

 

[yoderjac]

Nice looking grafts Jack. Those Okie scions are tough motha's! :D
Like you, with those scions, I'm 100% for at least one graft taking on every tree.
That's also a nice variety you've grafted-hope you'll be willing to share some next year. I have some Kentucky persimmon grafts that are going great I can trade with you.
Phil

I probably won't have many trees to graft next year. There is still time for the few that have not take to take. By the year after, I hope to have an abundance from those I planted last year and this.
Some of my commercial varieties came from Cliff in KY this year.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I got some from him too. I plan to prune most of my grafts to a central leader next spring so will end up with a good number of scions of about 12 different varieties. Most of them you will have anyway.
About my only unique offering will still be our native persimmons that drop mid-September through mid-October.

 

[yoderjac]

Here is an update on my persimmon grafting this spring:
25 trees were grafted.
21 trees have 1 or more scions leafing out.
1 tree had the scion separated (by an animal of some kind I presume).
3 tree have no scions leafing out yet.
That is a minimum success rate of 84% in terms of trees unless I have a scion die late.
Here is how the varieties look (Some trees have more than one variety)
I have 15 varieties take on 1 or more trees.
I have 3 varieties that have not taken on any tree yet. Two of those three were not varieties I selected for deer but commercial varieties that were sent to me as a bonus by someone I traded scions with.
All in all I'm very happy with my persimmon grafting success this year!

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I'm completely sold on my persimmon grafting technique. We are getting down to the point where if A scion has not yet taken, it won't.
I have 2 trees that failed for obvious reasons. One had an animal knock the scion loose and I grafted the other in the middle of a rain storm and the electrical tape did not stick. All the scions on that tree were loose. Pressure is key with bark grafting.
If I exclude those two trees, I had 100% of my trees (23) accept at least 1 scion. We have not had any rain in the last 2 weeks and one of the trees that accepted the scion doesn't look good. All the rest look fine. I'm guessing it just has more heat and sun and less access to water. I had a total of 42 scions take. I doubt if that number will increase at this point.
Every variety I attempted to graft but one, took. That was the Nikita's Gift hybrid. I'm sure that was due to the poor condition of the scion at grafting time. One variety whose scions I received got missed in my grafting process, Geneva Long. It was not one I had sought out, but one I received gratis as part of the scion exchange. I ended up passing those along to others along with my left-over scions. Hopefully they will work for them. So, in the end, including my local trees, I will have 17 different varieties of persimmons if I don't loose any trees.
As for the overall process, I'm convinced this is the best bang for the buck I can get with fruit trees. While TickRancher has demonstrated you can get the first persimmons in just 3 years, that has not been the case for me. Perhaps it is simply that the scions I used in my first year of grafting were from the local tree which is slower developing than the commercial varieties Tick used or it was the fact that my persimmons got hit hard by cicadas last year and it set them back. We did have some unusually cold weather last winter and everything was very late this spring, but the parent tree is producing persimmons this year, so I presume that is not the issue.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
Have you fertilized any of those trees. I spread some 10-10-10 around a few of mine because I had it hanging around and nothing else to do with it. Just wondering.
Phil

Not this year. Last March I did fertilize some of the trees long before grafting. I've also tried fertilizing my mature native female tree. I don't think persimmons (at least my wild one) respond to fertilization like other fruit trees. I notice little difference in fruiting or growth following fertilization.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

glad you are having such great success. I had a complete loss of both scions on one tree. Took me a month to realize I grafted 2 persimmon scions onto a small pecan tree:D :D
I am going to work harder next year on getting my scions staked as I have already lost several.
good job and we all appreciate your persimmon grafting knowledge you share on here
todd

 

[yoderjac]

That's not the first time I've heard that. I think there was a thread a while back about fertilizing wild oaks and the consensus seemed to be that there were better ways to spend your time and money.

Here is my guess: Native trees are well adapted to the environment. They have evolved to be productive with what the native soils provide. More is not always better. If you are deficient in a particular vitamin, taking the supplement can have dramatic effects. If you are not, you simply piss out the excess. So, I'm sure there are some individual trees that might benefit from fertilizer, but it makes sense that many don't. Once you start planting trees with rootstock that are not native to your area, I'm sure fertilizer has significantly more observable benefits.

 

[yoderjac]

I'm simply amazed at the leaf size of some of these grafted persimmons compared to my native persimmons:

Here is the whole tree:

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

looks great. Those are some huge leafs.
On another note---the Geneva Long scions that your sent me (2) are struggling. One never leafed out and the other one is barely hanging on. Grasshopper damage I think is the culprit. All the other scions that you sent me are doing great.
What variety is the huge leafed scion?