WI Guys.....CDAC 2nd round of meetings this week

[Tree Spud]

"I sure hope we don't turn into MN or IL with their issues."

Let me clarify, what I'm talking about is the "US" vs "THEM" mentality. We have that now to a degree but I hope its as far as it goes.

Shawn ... I have hunted down there for 10 years. I have very good friends, who between the two of them, have large private land tracts (300 acre plus), and multiple leased properties (800 acre plus), along with permission properties. One one property they only allow a 5 year better buck or a doe to be harvested.

I have never seen the animosity between landowner/hunter/DNR that I have seen here in Wis. Trust me, the places we eat, drink, and hang out are the most down to earth local places you can imagine ... think of an Whiskey Old Fashioned or Guiness Stout & shot of Old Bushmills with your scrambled eggs for breakfast at 10 am ... farmer country.

The fact that these places have big buck contests, and "BIG DOE" contests, tells you that they are not hung up with the same things many hunters here are confused with.

I know that every state has issues, but do you actually hunt down there? What issues are you talking about?

Their deer hunting reg book is about 12 pages, ours is about 80 pages ... they also manage the assault on bucks during the rut with a staggered bow, muzzleloader/shotgun season better than we do I think.

 

[shawnv]

Shawn ... I have hunted down there for 10 years. I have very good friends, who between the two of them, have large private land tracts (300 acre plus), and multiple leased properties (800 acre plus), along with permission properties. One one property they only allow a 5 year better buck or a doe to be harvested.

I have never seen the animosity between landowner/hunter/DNR that I have seen here in Wis. Trust me, the places we eat, drink, and hang out are the most down to earth local places you can imagine ... think of an Whiskey Old Fashioned or Guiness Stout & shot of Old Bushmills with your scrambled eggs for breakfast at 10 am ... farmer country.

The fact that these places have big buck contests, and "BIG DOE" contests, tells you that they are not hung up with the same things many hunters here are confused with.

I know that every state has issues, but do you actually hunt down there? What issues are you talking about?

Their deer hunting reg book is about 12 pages, ours is about 80 pages ... they also manage the assault on bucks during the rut with a staggered bow, muzzleloader/shotgun season better than we do I think.

I think what I've been reading online is painting that picture for me and maybe skewing my perception based on your comments. Good to hear that is not exactly the case.

 

[shawnv]

I would only qualify for level 1 so I'm not sure I would be offered the communications channels I would want. I think changing perceptions has to happen one DNR employee at a time. Or you can look at it another way, "Keep your friends close, your enemies closer."

 

[Steve Bartylla]

I think what I've been reading online is painting that picture for me

Hope you didn't mind me doing it, but that was why I posted what I did. I just don't see the boogy man in IL, either in some horrific DNR agenda or any wide spread loathing for the DNR there. I'd agree with Treespud that there's way more anomosity for the WI DNR than the IL DNR, whether it's justified or not.

 

[shawnv]

Hope you didn't mind me doing it, but that was why I posted what I did. I just don't see the boogy man in IL, either in some horrific DNR agenda or any wide spread loathing for the DNR there. I'd agree with Treespud that there's way more anomosity for the WI DNR than the IL DNR, whether it's justified or not.

Naw, I'm glad you did.

 

[Tree Spud]

Hope you didn't mind me doing it, but that was why I posted what I did. I just don't see the boogy man in IL, either in some horrific DNR agenda or any wide spread loathing for the DNR there. I'd agree with Treespud that there's way more anomosity for the WI DNR than the IL DNR, whether it's justified or not.

Steve ... Thanks ...

My observations are purely experience and time with the locals down there. I actually feel more relaxed when I hunt down there. They clearly are very competitive and there is lots of tribal warfare, however, there is a different sense of herd (buck & doe) mgmt. down there.

I have always been encouraged to shoot a doe when I am down there. These guys know my buck tag is $450 plus, They never seem to worry about the "holding bucks on my property" syndrome we have here where we cannot enter a sanctuary. Trust me there are plenty of Hatfield & McCoy stories I can tell, just a different focus on herd mgmt.by hunters & less focus on the DNR. They have had phone registration for a while, along with free doe tags for land owners and something seems too work down there.

While not scientific, the way they spread out their buck season over multiple weapons (no long rifles) and multiple weekends is interesting. there are no long extended gun seasons with 10-12 continuous days. Gun opener is Friday, before Turkey day week. Seems to put less emphasis on the holy day of "GUN OPENING SATURDAY" and spreads out onslaught ... hunters are staggered and have accepted. may not like, but their DNR may be diffusing issues and "managing" hunter engagement ...

Maybe I am all wrong and you can straighten me out ... :)

 

[wiscwhip]

Whip ... it's not because they are college educated, it's because they are Government. The arrogance of Gov't knows no bounds.

When you make the rules, not responsible for plan vs results, and not accountable to your customers ... you'd be a water walker too!

Great point Spud! Can't argue with that at all!

Hey Steve, by chance did you take the survey and do you have any opinions on the "rules" that you would be willing to share on a public forum?

 

[Steve Bartylla]

Pretty much agree, Spud. I really think the "net uproar" is really because of disease taking out a ton of deer and a bunch of trophies along with it. On a scale of 1-10, I'd have put hunting in the large section of the state I'm familiar with at an 8.5 to 9.5 up until 2 yrs ago. No, not saying every single piece of ground was that good, but just judging the area as a whole. Again, in that same area, I see disease having knocked that down to a 5-6 rating, which is still amazingly good, considering a 60-75% deer die off. Next yr, assuming disease stays in check, 6-7. Year after 7-8, Then, it should be right back to where it was. I get why everyone goes nuts over Iowa, but I actually enjoy hunting IL considerably more, for a bunch of reasons. Sure, IA has more jaw dropping bucks, and their high end is generally higher than in IL (and that's pure genetics...I know of a 180ish 2.5 yr old in IA and had never heard of such a thing before in wild deer, or seen such a high % of 3.5 yr old booners...One of my clients owns the old Kisky farm. The genetics there are just plain stupid good, as they are on a couple of other properties I've worked in IA over the years), but the area of IL I know is a well run factory for pumping 140+ bucks out like crazy, and also offers a shot at a 200"er. Nope, not as many as the areas I know in IA, but IL also puts a lot more 140-160s on the ground than those areas I know in IA.

You go from a 8.5-9.5 and drop down to a 5-6 and not only is one understandably bummed, but some are looking for someone to take those frustrations out on, as it's human nature to blame someone, and blaming a disease you have no control over isn't very satisfying. I'm not pretending I couldn't possibly be wrong, and I only really pretend to know about a 5-6 county area, but that is my read on the forum anger from IL. If you look back 20 yrs, no doubt, it was easier to kill a booner in IL then than it is today, but there are also a ton more outfitters and out of state hunters, along with a lot more residents that bow hunt than 20 yrs ago. That isn't going to change and it probably shouldn't.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

Probably shouldn't say this, Whip, but no. Sorry if I offend anyone, but I think the surveys are a complete waste of time and they only put them out to appease the masses and pretend they care what we think, at least on anything they already want to do (which they seem to already know what they want to do well before any survey ?s are generated).

I far from hate the WI DNR and generally believe they do about as good a job as they can. Frankly, I believe we will pay a stiff price in WI for Walker neutering them even more than they were and making it even more of a political body. I just don't believe they have ever allowed public perception to make any important decisions for them, unless absolutely forced to do so (which is what making them even more political is trying to force them into doing). to be honest, I don't think they should. Most WI hunters just aren't qualified to vote on anything hunting related and those that are qualified to answer some sure aren't qualified to answer others (I know I'm not qualified to tell the DNR what they should do in a lot of cases).

All that said, at the risk of offending my IL, MN, MI, IA, MO and so on friends here, I really believe that WI hunters ON AVERAGE are the most knowledgeable and experienced whitetail hunters in the US...But that doesn't make us deer management experts on a state wide basis and, let's face it guys, none of us here are your normal hunters. Most normal hunters from any state would think we're nuts for being so into hunting that we talk it on the net to "strangers" from all over the US.

 

[wiscwhip]

I can't say I disagree with anything you posted Steve. My only thought is that if they put out a survey, it is my civic duty to give an honest reply if it applies to me or my situation. Kind of like voting, all the candidates suck, you only get what you want 50% of the time at best, yet we must continue to do it or we lose our voice completely. As far as making the DNR in WI and many other states into a political plaything, that is a very unfortunate circumstance. The biggest issue is, I don't see it ever going back to the way it was and I see it changing to that type of system everywhere before it's all said and done(sorry guys, but it's coming to a state near you and you can't stop it). Political cronyism is more rampant now than ever, and if the higher-ups can take control of one more state-run entity like a DNR, it gives them more room to leverage voters and do "favors" for folks who got them in office. One more position to offer a kickback for a "friend" of your campaign.

I don't know about being the most "knowledgeable" overall group of hunters, but I think they are surely the most passionate group of hunters in the nation. Other than talking smack about the Packers, nothing stirs up more $h!t in a conversation than talk of deer hunting in this state.

 

[shawnv]

Pretty much agree, Spud. I really think the "net uproar" is really because of disease taking out a ton of deer and a bunch of trophies along with it. On a scale of 1-10, I'd have put hunting in the large section of the state I'm familiar with at an 8.5 to 9.5 up until 2 yrs ago. No, not saying every single piece of ground was that good, but just judging the area as a whole. Again, in that same area, I see disease having knocked that down to a 5-6 rating, which is still amazingly good, considering a 60-75% deer die off. Next yr, assuming disease stays in check, 6-7. Year after 7-8, Then, it should be right back to where it was. I get why everyone goes nuts over Iowa, but I actually enjoy hunting IL considerably more, for a bunch of reasons. Sure, IA has more jaw dropping bucks, and their high end is generally higher than in IL (and that's pure genetics...I know of a 180ish 2.5 yr old in IA and had never heard of such a thing before in wild deer, or seen such a high % of 3.5 yr old booners...One of my clients owns the old Kisky farm. The genetics there are just plain stupid good, as they are on a couple of other properties I've worked in IA over the years), but the area of IL I know is a well run factory for pumping 140+ bucks out like crazy, and also offers a shot at a 200"er. Nope, not as many as the areas I know in IA, but IL also puts a lot more 140-160s on the ground than those areas I know in IA.

You go from a 8.5-9.5 and drop down to a 5-6 and not only is one understandably bummed, but some are looking for someone to take those frustrations out on, as it's human nature to blame someone, and blaming a disease you have no control over isn't very satisfying. I'm not pretending I couldn't possibly be wrong, and I only really pretend to know about a 5-6 county area, but that is my read on the forum anger from IL. If you look back 20 yrs, no doubt, it was easier to kill a booner in IL then than it is today, but there are also a ton more outfitters and out of state hunters, along with a lot more residents that bow hunt than 20 yrs ago. That isn't going to change and it probably shouldn't.

I killed a turkey on that farm 10 years ago so I got to explore a section of it and it also has the right mix of habitat to keep the deer safe, secure and well fed. I was amazed at the pure mass those deer put on. Even within Southern Iowa not all things are equal. I for sure would lose a sense of reality deer hunting there every season.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

I agree, shawn. That farm isn't what I'd consider "average" S. IA ground, but neither are the properties I manage in IL. There are 4 other properties I knew very well in SE IA. Nope, not as good as the old Kisky farm, but still amazing in how many inches those deer put on. I'd bet IA specifically pumps out more 3.5 yr old booners than any other 4 states combined. Heck, N WI, C MN on up, you're often lucky if a 3.5 scores 120. Sure, there is the odd ball that goes 140+, but he is more the exception. It typically takes hitting 4.5 to reach 140+, if they even have it in them to do it.

It's more than just genetics, but genetics is a huge part of it, particularly when compared to IL. When compared to "up north" not having winter helps a ton too. That said, all these hunters that believe their ground could be "every bit as good as IA," if only "this or that" were the case, I respectfully disagree. Somehow, generally speaking, IA got a once in a lifetime roll of the genetics dice. Unless you can reshape your wild genetics somehow, you just aren't going to have 2.5 & 3.5 yr old booners running around at anything close to the same % as they do in the areas of IA I'm familiar with.

All that said, I completely agree that all of IA isn't created equally either.



Whip, I get and applaud your mindset. I'm just too jaded.

 

[shawnv]

I had someone tell me once that a WI scorer told him that the majority of B&C class bucks in South Eastern WI were 3.5's and believed that area had the best genetics in the country. I haven't ever hunted there so I have no clue if that is true or not, it was just something I remember hearing. Regardless, that stat is mute and trivial because because of all the hunting pressure and CWD there.

 

[bat man]

Is this statement true?

In 2014 Dmap signed 114 of 400,000 eligible properties.

And if so, why is it so? Do there not exist properties in WI where landowners need more permits than allowed by the normal state process to keep the herd in check?

Is what the DNR wants so far out of line with what hunting landowners want the program is a joke?

Whats the deal?

 

[Terrific_tom]

Is this statement true?

In 2014 Dmap signed 114 of 400,000 eligible properties.

And if so, why is it so? Do there not exist properties in WI where landowners need more permits than allowed by the normal state process to keep the herd in check?

Is what the DNR wants so far out of line with what hunting landowners want the program is a joke?

Whats the deal?

I think it is a trust issue. The DNR has screwed up so much in the last few years that land owners do not trust them to make wise decisions on thier properties

 

[bat man]

Sounds like an epic fail. Reverend Jim Jones would not have been pleased if so few had been drinking the Kool Aid.

 

[bat man]

Sconnie hunters drank it for years and got the screaming shits. .

Sounds like a good initiative slogan somewhere in there somewhere.

 

[wiscwhip]

Now they are trying to feed us the Kroll-Aid, but many are having none of that either. It is the same old juice, just with an outside flavor.

 

[Tree Spud]

Yes it is. 1) lack of trust in the Dnr 2) Total failure on kicking off the Dmap message 3) Many properties have low dpsm 4) Many qdm properties have the habitat and herd control knowledge already 5) Tdm properties dont take doe 6)see #1

The 9 most feared words in the English language ... I am from the Govt and I'm here to help ...

Two of the bigger issues with DMAP and the DNR are 1) lack of trust by hunters and especially land owners of the DNR, and 2) the DNR creating animosity towards private land owners essentially accusing them of being the cause for deer herd problems.

Comments from the DNR ... "we may need to enter your property (without permission) and harvest deer if you have too many" ... "suggesting that food plots are "bait" and could be eliminated in no baiting zones" ...

As was stated above, why do you need the DNR to tell you how to QDM ... when the DNR won't embrace the philosophy itself?

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