Which mix should I use for growing tree seedlings from seed? - Transferred from QDMA Forum

[yoderjac]

This is exactly my plan. I'll still use extra perlite + Promix in the RM18's (I'd rather have to water a bit more often than to have any issues of drainage), but then replace perlite with pine bark/fines in the larger containers.

Jack,
I have a hydroponics shop that has Promix HP. I was told HP stands for highly porous.
Did you think this will be good for my Chinese chestnuts?
WBP

That's what I've used indoors the last 2 years. No complaints here :)

 

[yoderjac]

"Metro" anything with metro in the name is most likely human waste! It might be safe but I'm not using any of that! I can't stand it that, they are spreading it on our wheat, corn, bean fields etc.. it's suppose to be safe, but they don't want anyone in those fields at certain times on foot, so I don't know why anyone would chance it with "metro mix" in their garden or touching it. I'm afraid to plant a fruit tree 20'+ from my leach field, cause it don't seem right. I think I will try the happy frog, for my seedlings going into containers this spring.

Where did you get your information from?
Here is the link to the 2013 sungro catalog. http://www.sungro.com/files/catalogues/SunshineMMTechno_Catalogue_2013.pdf I didn't see a more recent version. Pages 9-11 have the metro mixes listed. For the life of me I can't seem to find human waste in the ingredients list of any of them.
Am I missing something?
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Metrogro, is the one spreading Denver's human waste on all the farms in Colorado, farmers love it, because it cost a couple $ per acre, and they plow it in, doing one operation for the farmer. There is a waiting list for it. My dad even got biosolid samples sent to him from NY, They are going to haul it all over the country, from New York! Metrogro even had a potting soil line but all the sudden stopped selling it, even though it was a top seller, they said it was to focus on other areas. Why do you think it has "metro" in the name? This has been going on for decades, but most people don't even believe their sandwich bread is fertilized with human "biosolids" another nice name they use.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/20...-to-use-compost-made-from-treated-human-waste
I don't know for sure, but anything with "metro" in the name, most likely is biosolids. Not much compost coming out of a "metro" area made of concrete, except one thing, sludge, and plenty of it. It's way more common then anyone thinks.
That pic of the spreader, is nothing compared to the monster machines in Colorado that spread it, it's so nasty you don't even want to breath the air for miles around. I assume its safe but it's nasty smelling ____!

I think you are conflating two very different items because a particular word "Metro" is used in the name. Here is a list of just one of the many Sungro Metro-Mixes:
• Bark**
• Canadian Sphagnum peat moss
• SUN-COIR
• Coarse perlite
• Starter nutrient charge (with Gypsum) and slow
release nitrogen
• Dolomitic limestone and our long-lasting wetting agent
The others have very similar lists. Which of these items do you believe is some kind of human waste byproduct?
Anyone pooping out any of this stuff should really see a doctor! :eek:

 

[yoderjac]

I hope so, but anytime I see "metro" I think of metrogro's potting mix. 50% of cities waste are going into Ag, and potting soil. I guess having metrogro around my whole life, ruined anything with metro in it for me.

If it says organic, it doesnt look like they're allowed to use biosolids in the mix, even though they tried to use the organic label with biosolids. I have never googled this until now, just seen it first hand. Seen some of the biggest mule deer ever on metrogro land. Doesnt seem to hurt them. I need some potting soil, for this spring, to mix with my rocky clay/sand to help some seedlings get started. When I saw metro as the top bag, all I could think of is I hope that's not metrogro's product.
I don't know what bags have biosolids, but everyone should know they are out there, and work really well, but they don't advertise where the stuff comes from. Sounds like it's totally safe, but weird.

Can you point out one professional mix for starting trees that has human waste in it? I've only looked at some of the major players, but everything I've looked at has the ingredients clearly labeled. The only thing that the labels don't provide is the percentages.
I'm still trying to figure out if you are confusing the application of treated human bio-solids for agricultural fertilization with professional potting mixes.
Using treated human bio-solids in ag for quite a while. Some like it, some don't, some don't care. You seem to be claiming there is some link to the professional potting mixes we are discussing on this thread. If there is a link please point it out with some reference. Otherwise you are just confusing folks with unrelated information.
In Washington D.C. the subway is called the "Metro". It is kind of like you are saying "I wouldn't ride the Metro because it is probably full of bio-solids"..:confused: ...Well...maybe that was a bad example...:D

 

[yoderjac]

I have had good results so far with Pro-mix ultimate $14 Home Depot
http://t.homedepot.com/p/PRO-MIX-Ultimate-4-cu-ft-All-Purpose-Growing-Mix-1020030/205360639

This is what I'm going to try then, I'm at home depot all the time, makes it easy.

 

[yoderjac]

In Washington D.C. the subway is called the "Metro". It is kind of like you are saying "I wouldn't ride the Metro because it is probably full of bio-solids".....Well...maybe that was a bad example...
Lol! Yeah I stay away from all things "metro"
I'm not confusing anyone, just warning, if it says "metro" double check ingredients, and Google. If it says "biosolids" it's human!
Or if it's super cheap and looks really good, it might be human. Just like in the article, the guy could get a whole dump truck delivered an hour away of "compost" for his garden. Made him think too good to be true, it was.
I don't know what bags of compost, potting mix, fertilizer is metrogro, I just know it's out there, and I'm not sure they have to label where the ingredients come from if it's deemed "safe" by E.P.A. wish I knew more, but I have not bought more then one bag of mix in 10yrs, now that I'm going to be doing a lot of trees into a mix of native and store bought, I'm looking for info, and for sure want to know if I'm using biosolids.

I think what is confusing is that you posting the information on biosolids on a thread aimed at professional mixes for growing trees, yet you don't seem to be able to cite a single instance of a professional mix that uses them.

 

[yoderjac]

I have had good results so far with Pro-mix ultimate $14 Home Depot
http://t.homedepot.com/p/PRO-MIX-Ultimate-4-cu-ft-All-Purpose-Growing-Mix-1020030/205360639

Just thought I'd post a label I found to go with it: http://www.kellysolutions.com/erene...ING_MIX_1_25__21__30_4_23_2013_5_32_56_PM.pdf
I don't have any personal experience with it. However, just reading the label, I'm not sure it would be my first choice. The polymer for water retention concerns me a bit. I think most of the issues folks have with water is too frequent watering. I wonder if this plays into that. If you use it, I would just be very careful with watering.
Someone on another thread also mentioned Pro-Mix HP. That was another mix I was not familiar with. When I looked into that one they said it has a higher percentage of perlite to improve drainage. I think this might be a better fit. The Pro-Mix Ultimate looks like it may be better suited for a traditional start to vegetables or something like that as opposed to growing seedlings in air pruning containers.
Just to keep things in balance, some guys have success with very poorly drained mixes like Miracle Grow. When you put together a growing system, I think any one aspect of it can be suboptimal and you can still achieve good results if you get everything else right. There is always a balance between cost and benefit.
If you go back up to the top where I posted the slides, it is pretty clear that the heavy weight mixes out-perform the light weight mixes all else being equal. However, even the plants shown with the "mixes to avoid" slide would still make acceptable trees for us.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

When filling the 18 cells, do you really pack the Promix in there? At first I just filled the container loosely and then watered and all the mix went out the bottom so it seemed I needed to pack it in there just to fill the entire cell which seemed like it would restrict the openness for the roots. Am I overthinking?

You have to press a little to get it to "seat" properly from my experience.....don't press real hard, but a little bit. The first watering will have some soil that runs out....after that, it's not too bad.

I usually fill to the top so everything is level, then lift the tray about 6" off the ground and drop it a few times (gently) to get it evenly dispersed into all those little nooks and crannies that a RM tray has. Then I put more in until it's level again, and call it good. Figuring when I press the nut into place it will pack that last little bit where it needs to go :)

 

[yoderjac]

When filling the 18 cells, do you really pack the Promix in there? At first I just filled the container loosely and then watered and all the mix went out the bottom so it seemed I needed to pack it in there just to fill the entire cell which seemed like it would restrict the openness for the roots. Am I overthinking?

I scoop a cell full of mix and push a couple fingers in to make sure there is no air pocket at the bottom of the cell. I then sprinkle enough mix until it is level. I take a chestnut and place it in the corner of the cell with the root radicle tip in the middle of the cell. Next I press the nut into the mix. That provides a slight bit of compaction below the nut but not too much. I end up with the top of the nut just below the top of the cell. I then sprinkle on enough mix to cover the nut. I like to have my nuts covered. I find that they don't dry out as much that way. Others just let them on top.
Next I drum my fingers on top to get an irregular surface. This helps the initial watering from just running off. I really soak the cell each time I water until I can see water dripping from the bottom middle holes the cell. I then wait for the cell to dry out and become light before watering again. After that initial watering, the mix will settle some and often the nut will be exposed. I generally just sprinkle some more mix on top to keep it level with the top of the cell and the nut covered. I then water that dry part of the mix on top.
I'm sure there are a lot of techniques that work, but this is what I've been doing. If you pack the cell too tightly, you lose drainage. If you just scoop the mix loosely, you often get an air pocket in the bottom of the cell and it later settles after you water an you end up with half a cell of mix. Whatever technique you use, you are trying to avoid these extremes.
Thanks,
jack

 

[yoderjac]

According to sludgenews. Org there is a lot of professional mixes using it. Is miracle grow professional enough? This list was like second one, on a google search.
Internet is full of misinformation, so I like to read both sides then make a decision.
Also according to sludge news, they don't have to list it as an ingredient. Maybe as simple as organic matter.
Branded Products Containing Sewage Sludge
(If you have a sludge product to add, please send information to info at sludgenews.org.)
All-Gro (Synagro)
Granulite (Synagro)
Chesapeake Sunshine
EarthMate (Philadelphia, PA)
Nutri-Green (Virginia Beach, VA)
MetroGro (Madison, WI)
ORGRO (Baltimore, MD, Veolia Water North America)
Bay State Fertilizer (Boston, MA)
GroCo (Seattle, WA)
SilviGrow (Seattle, WA)
Oceangro (NJ)
TAGRO (Tacoma, WA)
SoundGro (Pierce County, WA)
Milorganite (Milwaukee, WI)
WeCare Compost (NY)
CompostT (Pennsylvania)
EKO Compost (Missoula, Maui, Lewiston plant on Idaho-Wahington border)
Dillo Dirt (Austin, TX)
Glacier Gold (Olney, MT)
EarthBlends (New York City, a product of Synagro, sold by WeCare)
Agresoil (MA)
Earthlife (New England, a product of New England Organics)
TOPGRO (Los Angeles, CA)
N-Viro Soil
N-Viro BioBlend
Landscapers' Advantage (Camden, NJ)
Hou-Actinite (Houston, TX)
ComPro (Washington, D.C.)
Mine Mix (Philadelphia, PA)
Kellogg Nitrohumus, Gromulch, Amend and Topper (Kellogg Garden Products, Los Angeles, CA)
Growers' Blend by Earthwise Organics (a Synagro subsidiary)
Unity Fertilizer (Unity Envirotech LLC, Florida-baded)
Miracle-Gro Organic Choice Garden Soil (Scott's Miracle-Gro Company says, "Some of the most common organic plant foods are bone meal, cottonseed meal, blood meal, fish emulsion, activated sewage and manures.")
PocoNite (Sumter, SC)
“In 1992, we [Synagro] formed the OPMG [Organic Product Marketing Group] to market composted and pelletized biosolids from our own facilities as well as municipally owned facilities. OPMG currently markets in excess of 982,000 cubic yards of compost and 121,000 tons of pelletized biosolids annually. OPMG markets a majority of its biosolids products under the trade names Granulite Company and AllGro Company. Based on our experience, OPMG is capable of marketing biosolids products to the highest paying markets. In 2006, we marketed 121,000 tons or approximately 39 percent of the heat-dried pellets produced in the United States. We also marketed 500,000 tons of compost, which we believe is significantly more than any other producer of municipal based compost materials.” (2006 annual report, Synagro.)

Ok. Now we are getting somewhere. You have a huge list above of random products. Can you limit that list to professional mixes for starting trees. The only thing I recognize on your list is Miracle-Gro but the product you list is a soil, not a professional soilless mix that we use for starting trees from seed.
So which of those many products are related to this thread?

 

[yoderjac]

For sure the "metro" mix 560, 360 has NO biosolids. I found a sludge watch dog site, that compiled a list of one's that don't, you have to download the list, or you can search by name so I did the metro, and it was on the good list.
Another experiment/study I saw was, they used a seed starter mix with biosolids added, but the metro mix 560 outperformed the biosolid seed starter mix in height growth at 2yrs with red maple. So it sounds like 560 is pretty good.
The only seed starter mix that I found containing biosolids for sure, or that they admit to it is for some kind of grass, for sod production.
Now I didn't do extensive searching, but I can only handle looking at hippie websites for so long. It seems you are right, in that tree seed starter, the chance for biosolids being in it is slim to none, even with the name "metro" Potting soil, fertilizer, and soil mix, it seems the chance for biosolids as an ingredient, goes up.
"Metro" doesn't mean biosolids. I have no idea why metro mix was used for the name.

Thanks. I don't know if using "biosolids" is a good thing or bad thing in general. I leave that to individuals to decide for themselves. You posted a lot of information on biosolids. I just wanted to do two things:
1) If there are professional soilless mixes that contain them, I wanted to focus your list on those so guys trying to decide which mix to use could make an informed decision to either use or avoid them. - It looks like there are none that you have identified so far.
2) I wanted to make sure that folks didn't avoid using professional soilless mixes just because the brand name had the word "Metro" in It because you were associating that name with biosolids.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

milorganite is organic fertilizer i use on my lawn, sludge based and fantastic stuff but theres no way i'd grow a tree in it lol:rolleyes:

 

[yoderjac]

Okay, I can only find the metro mix 510. How does this compare?

Here is a link to the web site so you can compare the different metro mix ingredients: https://www.hummert.com/product-details/9490/metro-mix
I don't want to tell anyone what to use. I just wanted to put forward the study. I'd look at the ingredients of the metro mix versions rated in the study and compare them to 510.
Keep in mind that your choice is not going to make or break you. If you use mixes that are less well drained, you need to watch watering much more closely.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

END OF QDMA THREAD TRANSFER

(Sorry for the excursion into biosolids but I thought it best to bring all the posts intact.)

 

[yoderjac]

Updated Picture Links

 

[TreeDaddy]

Metro mix 852 is 50% pine bark

0ther 50% is peat/perlite

Solved my Quixotic quest for mini pine bark nuggets

Using this mix for RBIIs

Promix BX for 18s

seems to be working well with baby chestnuts,persimmons,DCO,and white oak this year



bill