Tree ID Verification - Transferred from QDMA Forums

[yoderjac]

I found several of these trees heavily laden with nuts. I'm pretty sure it is a chinquapin but I'd like someone who works with them to verify.

Also, presuming this is chinquapin, for the guys growing them from seed, do the nuts need to be cold stratified? I grabbed a bag full.
Thanks,
Jack

Looks like the ones I've planted, but mine don't have nuts yet (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Looks great Jack ! I'm jealous !!! Good find !!

Im not sure what it is, but Id take a few! Haha.
Good find for sure.

Did you find one nut per husk/hull?

I don't believe that they need to be stratified. Make sure not to get them "too" wet, and that you plant them a tiny bit deeper than most oaks, as that's what they have evolved for!
As bigeight said, great find!!!

Thanks guys! I appreciate the help. Yes, it was 1 nut per husk.
How would you guys rate these as wildlife trees/shrubs for deer and turkey? Since I have a significant free fresh nut source, I'm thinking of collecting a bunch more and adding these in significant numbers to my winter tree project.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Thanks guys! I appreciate the help. Yes, it was 1 nut per husk.
How would you guys rate these as wildlife trees/shrubs for deer and turkey? Since I have a significant free fresh nut source, I'm thinking of collecting a bunch more and adding these in significant numbers to my winter tree project.
==================================
I have about a dozen Chinkapin Chestnut Hybrids. most of their nuts are borne 1/husk. I have been told Chinese average 2/husk but I don't know enough to verify. Some of my hybrids will occasionally have 2/husk. I imagine those are the ones that have more of a Chinese influence.
the nuts are small. But, they are a GREAT size for turkey. It has been my experience that animals don't find the source initially. this could be because they are small. However, once they do the earth under the bush will be tore up.
The one in your picture seems more like a bush. Those are exactly how I would describe mine. I have one that is about 8-9 feet. the rest are under 6' tall.
I have had some success with Chinkapins but it has been challenging. I think most of this comes from the climate for which I am trying to cultivate these chinkapins. They are in North central pa, almost to NY border, 1900-2000ft. elevation, SHORT growing season, cold (I have seen 28 degrees on June 8th). Also, they don't "fit" well in tubes because of their bush like habit. Therefore I had to use cages. I made the cages about 24-30" wide and the deer would eat every leaf that stuck out past the cage. w/o a tube instead of growing up, they grow horizontal, which is their habit. So it took them a while to get some height.
I planted them and then could not dedicate the time to monitor for a couple years due to family and kids commitments. I also had winter dieback the first couple years. (end of excuses)
But they are now making it. FWIW, my best chinkapins are growing on various slopes under canopy of larger trees. The ones on the flats just not the strongest. Also odd that three on slopes facing North East are doing the best. go figure. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
I bought mine as seedlings and a few 2 year pots. Don't know about starting from seeds but my guess would be that yes the do need stratification.
LMK if I missed anything.

Jack - you will find (or at least I did) that chinkapin germinate very well. I have a few dozen growing in buckets currently from those I picked last fall. They are a white oak so no cold hours or stratification is needed - float test them and put them in some ground. Mine germinated well by just pressing them into the soil. Chinkapin produce early season acorns (first to fall in my area) - I have actual trees not the shrubs. They don't get as large as say a regular white or red oak. I found that young trees in excellent conditions will produce nuts in roughly 5 to 10 years. The acorns are small so lots of critters like them. Not the best oak for timber simply because they don't get huge - but they are a nice early producer of acorns so if you have an early hutnign season they can be a great draw for the critters. I will say that mine like a course/rocky soil that drains well. All of mine are on a steep slope that transitions from an upland type condition to a bottom/flood plain type condition. Mine do well in the same areas as my norther reds and Burr oaks. Good luck if you plant some - I got over 50% germination my first try ever growing acorns and I was too cheap to use comercial tools to do so. I used a potting mix a plastic tray and some mesh wire - I then simply transplanted those that germinated into a deeper container and set them in the soil over the winter - I'm sure there are better and faster ways - but if I can do it a 3rd grader can do it!

They are the bees knees for wildlife food. I think they taste a lot like corn pops.

That looks like a bush we used to have on our PA property. It was identified as an Alleghany Chinquapin. Everything eats the nuts. We lost ours about 5 years ago during a really bad winter snow. The deer ate them to the ground and they have never recovered. We are planning to replant some seedling this spring.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by j-bird
Jack - you will find (or at least I did) that chinkapin germinate very well. I have a few dozen growing in buckets currently from those I picked last fall. They are a white oak so no cold hours or stratification is needed - float test them and put them in some ground. Mine germinated well by just pressing them into the soil. Chinkapin produce early season acorns (first to fall in my area) - I have actual trees not the shrubs. They don't get as large as say a regular white or red oak. I found that young trees in excellent conditions will produce nuts in roughly 5 to 10 years. The acorns are small so lots of critters like them. Not the best oak for timber simply because they don't get huge - but they are a nice early producer of acorns so if you have an early hutnign season they can be a great draw for the critters. I will say that mine like a course/rocky soil that drains well. All of mine are on a steep slope that transitions from an upland type condition to a bottom/flood plain type condition. Mine do well in the same areas as my norther reds and Burr oaks. Good luck if you plant some - I got over 50% germination my first try ever growing acorns and I was too cheap to use comercial tools to do so. I used a potting mix a plastic tray and some mesh wire - I then simply transplanted those that germinated into a deeper container and set them in the soil over the winter - I'm sure there are better and faster ways - but if I can do it a 3rd grader can do it!
==================================
J-bird, those nuts and the bush look like Chinkapin chestnuts to me. Not Chinkapin oaks. Are you talking about your Chinkapin oaks or Dwarf Chinkapin oaks? Thanks for great info.

 

[yoderjac]

You notice any blight on that tree Yoder??
Those chinquapins are supposed to last longer once they get the blight when compared to American Chestnuts.

yoder seeing those got me excited(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) . I have no idea why, I bought some from a member a few/couple years ago and just threw them on the ground by my old garage. Last year they/it had produced a fair amount of nuts (at least a solo cup full) little rascles hurt getting them out of the bur.
I cut the dead branches off during the winter and the dern thing has just about died, put on some leaves but not many. I don't know if I killed it or it just died back.
Would you pass a few of your finds off to a fellow Virginian? Please (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by mark1427
yoder seeing those got me excited(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) . I have no idea why, I bought some from a member a few/couple years ago and just threw them on the ground by my old garage. Last year they/it had produced a fair amount of nuts (at least a solo cup full) little rascles hurt getting them out of the bur.
I cut the dead branches off during the winter and the dern thing has just about died, put on some leaves but not many. I don't know if I killed it or it just died back.
Would you pass a few of your finds off to a fellow Virginian? Please (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
==================================
blight perhaps??

I agree these are not chinkapin oaks. The leaves are similar, but the nuts are different. Chink oak nuts look just like any other acorn.
Looks like you got a wildlife magnet!

Thanks for all the help. So is the consensus that they are chestnuts or oaks? They sure look like mini-chestnuts to me. They taste like chestnuts as well.
So, if the consensus is that they are chestnuts? If so, do they need cold stratified like other chestnuts?
I did not see any signs of blight.
Mark,
If you want a few, just PM me and I'll send you my email address.
Thanks,
Jack

I think they are Allegany Chinqs. Or close relative. Will do yoder and thanks.
What would the blight look like on stems the size of a magic marker?

All,
Thanks to everyone for the help. I planted 7 18s with these today. I'm keeping them indoors under lights because we have an active squirrel population and I don't want to lose them to squirrels. I soaked them pretty good for the initial watering, but based on everyone's advice, I won't water them again until they are good and dry.
I used the same nut orientation with the point to the side as we use on chestnuts. I'm presuming both the root radicle and stem will emerge from the point like chestnuts.
I have an address from Paul. Anyone else that PMed me about nuts, please try to email me your mailing address and the number of nuts you want this weekend. I'm hoping to get the nuts I have left in the mail on Monday.
Thanks,
Jack

Does anyone have an estimate of how long it takes from planting time before you see top growth?

Ok, all the nuts I have left will be mailed on Monday. I think I was able to meet the requests of everyone who sent me an email with a mailing address. I was able to include a couple of extra nuts in each bag.
Thanks to everyone for the help!
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by mark1427
What would the blight look like on stems the size of a magic marker?
==================================
LOL. I agree. have been meaning to share with you mark. mark, it will look like a swollen knuckle that has healed over from a wound. I don't have a photo but have seen it in person. Think of a normal stem with a thicker section that has swirling or odd shape bark.
And I have heard the same thing that letemgrow has shared in a previous post. 'Once they get the blight, most heal from it and end up lasting longer.'
IIRC, they will tolerate some blight and heal but not completely resistant.

Well, I think I found 3 more today. They are too small to produce but they look the same to my untrained eye. Here are a couple pics:

The third one did have signs of blight canker but I didn't take pictures of it. I should have.
Thanks,
Jack

Incredible. I walk all over these darn pa woods and trout streams and NEVER see native chinkapin!
great finds jack.
on the first bush I can see leaves that really take the character of the native <i>pumila</i>
looks like a hot dry site. is that bluestem growing around it? all of mine died on full sun, dry sites.

I found one more today that is much larger. The two above are on a logging road. It is on a little ridge. We have not bushhogged the road sides for a couple years. Bluestem broomsedge is in our seed bank. The picture was taken just after several weeks with no rain. We finally got a good rain last night. The logging road runs north/south and there are pines on both sides. They are fairly young but old enough so the Chnks don't get full sun.

Found two more today. These are larger but did not have any signs of bearing nuts. One thing that seems to be correlating in terms of location is that I find a lot growing on the west side of an opening where they get morning sun. These openings are mowed or planted, so they seem to be able to take advantage of the bushy quality. Vertical growing plants are bushogged or tilled. The roots for these are several feed into the woods, but the bushy nature allows the branches to grow out into the sun.
I wonder if these are sort of like pawpaw that grow in understory when they are young but produce best in full sun. I plan to try some pawpaw this winter as well. I may use the same growing technique for both. My plan for pawpaw is to start them in rootmaker 18s over the winter, transplant them to 5&quot; roottrapper bags or 1 gal rootbuilder II pots and keep them on my lower deck that only gets partial morning sun. I'll transplant them to larger rootmaker containers for the second summer and keep them in the same location. I'm hoping by then they will be mature enough to handle full sun. That dormant season, I'll plant them in the field in permanent locations. I'll try positioning them so they get anywhere from 1/2 to a full day of sun.
This may be the ticket for Chinks. If you've got a better idea, let me know.
Thanks,
Jack

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Found two more today. These are larger but did not have any signs of bearing nuts. One thing that seems to be correlating in terms of location is that I find a lot growing on the west side of an opening where they get morning sun. These openings are mowed or planted, so they seem to be able to take advantage of the bushy quality. Vertical growing plants are bushogged or tilled. The roots for these are several feed into the woods, but the bushy nature allows the branches to grow out into the sun.
I wonder if these are sort of like pawpaw that grow in understory when they are young but produce best in full sun. I plan to try some pawpaw this winter as well. I may use the same growing technique for both. My plan for pawpaw is to start them in rootmaker 18s over the winter, transplant them to 5&quot; roottrapper bags or 1 gal rootbuilder II pots and keep them on my lower deck that only gets partial morning sun. I'll transplant them to larger rootmaker containers for the second summer and keep them in the same location. I'm hoping by then they will be mature enough to handle full sun. That dormant season, I'll plant them in the field in permanent locations. I'll try positioning them so they get anywhere from 1/2 to a full day of sun.
This may be the ticket for Chinks. If you've got a better idea, let me know.
Thanks,
Jack
==================================
to answer your questions I think that is a good plan. Think about placing them in hedgerows, understory, 50% sun, protecting from afternoon heat, protect from cold Northwest winter winds. my best ones are on slopes. steep slopes that face East-Northeast. These slopes are somewhat blocked by the afternoon sun and the sharp winds of cold front because of the terrain. remember the elevation and cold in this place make it one of the colder areas for PA. (we already has two 34 degree nights in September)
My other good ones are along a creek, again on a East-Northeast facing slope. I think the creek moderates the daytime heat AND possibly the spring and winter cold air. This creek is 50-60 degrees year round and holds brookies all year.
the ones out in the middle with full sun,...died in 2 years. (now that could be dry winter desiccating winds too) The ones in a hedgerow facing south west,...barely making it.
also, I had a question pestering me that I could not seem to figure out. So I went and grabbed one of my old plant bio books. It had one small section on Chinkapin. Its says they are monoecious. That explains a lot. Maybe you already knew this but I am old and I forget things.
so you can stop looking for nearby pollinators. Now I don't know if my hybrids are still hermaphroditic. sometimes hybrids loose some reproductive ability. (haha, I could take that in one several directions,lol) I see the catkins in the early summer but have never looked for both flowers.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by NorthPotterCoPA
to answer your questions I think that is a good plan. Think about placing them in hedgerows, understory, 50% sun, protecting from afternoon heat, protect from cold Northwest winter winds. my best ones are on slopes. steep slopes that face East-Northeast. These slopes are somewhat blocked by the afternoon sun and the sharp winds of cold front because of the terrain. remember the elevation and cold in this place make it one of the colder areas for PA. (we already has two 34 degree nights in September)
My other good ones are along a creek, again on a East-Northeast facing slope. I think the creek moderates the daytime heat AND possibly the spring and winter cold air. This creek is 50-60 degrees year round and holds brookies all year.
the ones out in the middle with full sun,...died in 2 years. (now that could be dry winter desiccating winds too) The ones in a hedgerow facing south west,...barely making it.
also, I had a question pestering me that I could not seem to figure out. So I went and grabbed one of my old plant bio books. It had one small section on Chinkapin. Its says they are monoecious. That explains a lot. Maybe you already knew this but I am old and I forget things.
so you can stop looking for nearby pollinators. Now I don't know if my hybrids are still hermaphroditic. sometimes hybrids loose some reproductive ability. (haha, I could take that in one several directions,lol) I see the catkins in the early summer but have never looked for both flowers.
==================================
I'm not sure if it has anything to do with pollination, but when I find one, it seems like I find another one or two fairly close. Even though many plants are monoecious it doesn't mean they are necessarily do well with self pollination. For example many pecans have both parts but the female parts are often not receptive when the male parts are producing. This approach favors genetic diversity but still allows for self-pollination when necessary. Many trees will produce light crops if self fertilized and heavier crops when cross pollenated.
However, finding additional Chinks near plants previously discovered my simply be a higher probability of nut distribution nearby along with the growing conditions being favorable nearby.
The plants that seemed to be the heaviest producers were those released by the logging operation. I will see what happens when I release some of the others this winter.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Has anyone that I sent the Chink seeds to had them germinate? I planted mine about 2 weeks ago now indoors under lights. Since folks said they had such high germination rates (90%+) I didn't bother starting them in flats. I just planted each one in a cell. I planted them under the soil line, so I can't tell if a root radicle has emerged, but I have no top growth yet.
It is still a bit too early for me to be worried, but I just thought I'd check in with others.
Thanks,
Jack

I just got home from a week of archery hunting at the farm and checked the trees. Of the 126 nuts I planted, 12 of them are now showing some top growth. Here is a picture of the largest:

They seem to be behaving very much like chestnuts so far.

Jack,
Should it read 12 now have top growth?
I am guessing you are pleased with how they have done.
WBP

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
Jack,
Should it read 12 now have top growth?
I am guessing you are pleased with how they have done.
WBP
==================================
Stinking autocomplete. It should have read &quot;Now&quot; instead of &quot;Not&quot;. Thanks for the heads up. I made the correction.
Jack

That is great! And seems to be quick to start top growth.
I usually only have time to plant seedlings or containers. for the first time in 15+ years I am going to try starting some from seeds again. Jack would you be able to give me a few tips?
1) do you have an old post showing your light set up and bulb type? Do you have a favorite timer setup?
2) at what minimum temperature should the room maintain?
3) there are several seed starting mixes. Is there a new favorite of yours?
Hope you saw some good bucks at the farm

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by NorthPotterCoPA
That is great! And seems to be quick to start top growth.
I usually only have time to plant seedlings or containers. for the first time in 15+ years I am going to try starting some from seeds again. Jack would you be able to give me a few tips?
1) do you have an old post showing your light set up and bulb type? Do you have a favorite timer setup?
2) at what minimum temperature should the room maintain?
3) there are several seed starting mixes. Is there a new favorite of yours?
Hope you saw some good bucks at the farm
==================================
I'm sure there is an old thread with pictures of some of my setups but you'll have to search for it. It is probably in one of the chestnut threads. I started out by building small indoor greenhouses using either a wooden or PVC frame and shower curtains to close it in. I use plan old fluorescent shop lights with a timer. I like the fluorescents because they are cool. Light energy diminishes with the square of the distance. These let me keep the lights close to the trees without burning them. I've tried several setups for lights. The one I like best uses cords and pulleys to hand them. The cords go from the lights up to pulleys hung from the frame and then to the front of the frame. I put loops on those cords with prussic knots and attach them to hooks on the top front of the frame. You can then slide the cord through the prussic knot to adjust the height of lights from the front of the frame without having to reach in. I use the rootmaker express trays so I can reorganize my trees based on height. That way I have some lights higher and some lower but all about equal distance from the trees they are above.
I started out with a small oil filled electric heater, a small room humidifier, and fan on a timer inside each of these indoor greenhouses. Last year, I put a whole house humidifier and set it up to exhaust directly in my basement instead of into the duct work. I now don't use the small humidifiers and keep the fronts of the greenhouses open. I keep the whole basement at high humidity.
As for temperature I think optimal is about 75 degrees F. You don't want to get above 80. It is very hard to maintain optimal humidity at these temperatures. I'm happy if I can hold over 75% RH at 75 degrees. Trees will still grow at lower temperatures but much slower. Maintaining temperatures inside these greenhouses wasn't hard with the heaters.
As for mixes, the big name is Promix. It was very expensive (or so I thought) in my area, so I used Fafard 3B that I thought was less expensive and about equivalent in contents. Well, as I was poking around last year and found out I was wrong about price. Promix 3.8 cf bales were around $50 locally and I could get Fafard 3B 2.8 cf bags were around $30.
While my mistake was that the Promix bales are compressed and the Fafard bags are not. The Promix bales are equivalent to 6 cf of uncompressed mix. Then, several weeks ago, I found a local source for Promix Bx that sells it for $30. These are too bulky to mail order. Shipping would kill you.
I have no complaints about either mix.
Hope this helps,
Jack

Here is a picture of the light setup I like best. This indoor greenhouse has room for 6 express trays:

Thanks,
Jack

I checked my chinks this morning. I'm now up to 21 with top growth. That is about 16% so far. I'm dressing the top with Osmocote as they start top growth. The Promix I'm using has starter fertilizer in it. I'm figuring that since Osmocote is slow release, if I apply it at the beginning of top growth, it should start to become available about the time they put on the second flush of leaves. This has worked pretty well with chestnuts and I'm pretty much following that same formula.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
I checked my chinks this morning. I'm now up to 21 with top growth. That is about 16% so far. I'm dressing the top with Osmocote as they start top growth. The Promix I'm using has starter fertilizer in it. I'm figuring that since Osmocote is slow release, if I apply it at the beginning of top growth, it should start to become available about the time they put on the second flush of leaves. This has worked pretty well with chestnuts and I'm pretty much following that same formula.
==================================
Many, many thanks for the greenhouse guidance and photos. you have an incredible setup! You should have great success. I have been studying these and trying to figure out if I can do something similar.
Do you have some drain pans under the RM18's? Have you only watered the Chink weekly during germination?

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by NorthPotterCoPA
Many, many thanks for the greenhouse guidance and photos. you have an incredible setup! You should have great success. I have been studying these and trying to figure out if I can do something similar.
Do you have some drain pans under the RM18's? Have you only watered the Chink weekly during germination?
==================================
The indoor greenhouse frames have tarps lining the bottoms. On top of the tarps I place wired closet shelving you can get from Lowes. This elevates the express trays another inch or so allowing for good air flow below the cells. I saturate my trees when I water and I make sure water is dripping out of all the holes at the bottom of the express cells. The excess water collects on the tarp and eventually evaporates. I add one of the mosquito rings to the bottom to help reduce potential insect issues.
As for watering, I wait for the top of the cells to get clearly dry before watering and then saturate. Right now, that has been about a week. However that changes with conditions. Once I turn on the heat, my air will dry out so I'll start the whole house humidifier. Once the top growth gets a little larger, I'll turn the fan on a timer. Stems need the stress of wind to strengthen them. I don't run the fan for very long but I run it a little each day. Once that fan starts running, the plants dry out faster.
So far, it has been about once per week that I water.
Thanks,
Jack

As of tonight, I now have 29 chinks with some top growth so I'm now up to 23%. Here is a pic of the first 18 of them:

By the end of the day I was up to 36 which is about 28%. They seem to be coming on strong. I won't be back home until Saturday night to check them again but I'm hoping to get close to 50% by then.

Good Luck Hunting.
Makes time in tree easier to think how many have top growth when I get back.
WBP

 

[yoderjac]

As of this morning I'm up to 54 with top growth or about 42%. I seem to get a few more each time I check.

Here is a photo of the Allegheny Chinquapins as of today:

Most of the ones that germinated early seem to be doing well. The number of new trees sprouting each day seems to be slowing. I'm now at around 50%
(Note: The front right tray are pawpaw that were just planted. There are 4 more trays of Chinquapins in another indoor greenhouse that only have a few sprouted. I've been reorganizing them by height as the grow so the picture shows the biggest trees).
Thanks,
Jack

wow. That is tremendous top growth for less than 60 days. Your greenhouse setup has to be just the right combination for these chinkapin.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by NorthPotterCoPA
wow. That is tremendous top growth for less than 60 days. Your greenhouse setup has to be just the right combination for these chinkapin.
==================================
Actually if you look back up the thread you will see they were planted on 9/20. So, it has been little more than 30 days.
I'm very happy with the growth of those that germinated, but somewhat disappointed in the germination rates. As I said, it has only been 30 some days, so I'm going to give them some more time, but I'm only around 50% when others says they are getting 90%+ with AC.
I have a few that sprouted and seem to damp-out but very few. Perhaps I'm watering too often. I think I'll cut back a bit.
As for the good early growth, I don't credit the greenhouse that much. I think most of it is due to the combination of air pruning containers and professional mix. These 18s cause the tap root to be pruned pretty quickly so the energy provided by the nut is used for root branching instead. The more root tips you have once the nut is exhausted, the more nutrients and water the plant can uptake for growth. The chunky Promix provides a lot of voids for roots to grow into as well as draining very well. After 12-16 weeks the roots will begin to run out of space and I'll need to transplant them to a larger root pruning container.
Thanks,
Jack

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Actually if you look back up the thread you will see they were planted on 9/20. So, it has been little more than 30 days.
I'm very happy with the growth of those that germinated, but somewhat disappointed in the germination rates. As I said, it has only been 30 some days, so I'm going to give them some more time, but I'm only around 50% when others says they are getting 90%+ with AC.
I have a few that sprouted and seem to damp-out but very few. Perhaps I'm watering too often. I think I'll cut back a bit.
As for the good early growth, I don't credit the greenhouse that much. I think most of it is due to the combination of air pruning containers and professional mix. These 18s cause the tap root to be pruned pretty quickly so the energy provided by the nut is used for root branching instead. The more root tips you have once the nut is exhausted, the more nutrients and water the plant can uptake for growth. The chunky Promix provides a lot of voids for roots to grow into as well as draining very well. After 12-16 weeks the roots will begin to run out of space and I'll need to transplant them to a larger root pruning container.
Thanks,
Jack
==================================
I do remember it was late September but I have so many numbers in my head every day that I did not remember the date and was just making a generalization.
So do you plan to vernalize these? or chill hours as you have mentioned? Or are you going pass on that, transfer to larger containers at the appropriate time, and keep those in the greenhouse environment until spring?

To be honest, these are the first trees I've started this early. Most that I've started under lights have been germinated in December. With those, I've just transplanted to larger containers if necessary and then waited until the last threat of frost has passed and then acclimated them to the outdoors.
I'm also starting some pawpaw for the first time. I just planted them the other day. I had a discussion with Cliff England to get some recommendations. He suggested that with the pawpaw, if I start them this early, I could pinch the leaves off in April and expose them to cold for 30 days. He says I can get two growing seasons in one year that way.
I don't know if this technique will work with AC or not. I may try it with a few and see what happens. Maybe someone who has done this with AC can chime in.
Thanks,
Jack

Hey, all you guys that I sent AC nuts to. Were your germination rates any better than mine. So far, mine seem to have stalled out at about 50%. I'm not giving up on them for at least another few weeks so my 50% is not a final number. I was just wondering if others got better rates and how they germinated them.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Hey, all you guys that I sent AC nuts to. Were your germination rates any better than mine. So far, mine seem to have stalled out at about 50%. I'm not giving up on them for at least another few weeks so my 50% is not a final number. I was just wondering if others got better rates and how they germinated them.
==================================
I put about 6 or 7 stored in the fridge in a ziploc with damp peat moss because I hadn't got around to plant them. The other half were in a small baggie without the peat. Just checked and all those in the peat were starting to grow radicals so I just planted them. Now the rest are in the bag of peat in the fridge.

Put mine in the fridge and I have not checked them.
Been working on chestnuts and persimmons.
Got a mini greenhouse to build outside for my late persimmon project.
WBP

These things seem to be all over the place. Some that germinated quickly are now over 3&quot; tall. Many show no signs of anything. I was thinking of giving up on them but every now and then another one sprouts. Right now I'm just under 60% that show some signs of top growth.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Hey, all you guys that I sent AC nuts to. Were your germination rates any better than mine. So far, mine seem to have stalled out at about 50%. I'm not giving up on them for at least another few weeks so my 50% is not a final number. I was just wondering if others got better rates and how they germinated them.
==================================
Looked like all mine germinated?? Some of the neighborhood kids decided to play with my tree guards out front and tore up some of my plantings.
Still have a few going strong, going to mulch them heavily before winter and see if I can get some to survive. Thanks again for sending those!!!

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by letemgrow
Looked like all mine germinated?? Some of the neighborhood kids decided to play with my tree guards out front and tore up some of my plantings.
Still have a few going strong, going to mulch them heavily before winter and see if I can get some to survive. Thanks again for sending those!!!
==================================
That's good to hear about the germination rates. It helps me have patience with mine.

Latest picture of the larger ones:

It has only be a couple days since the last pic, but I had the lights up for watering so I snapped another pic yesterday:

I'm now up over 65% with at least some sign of top growth.
The front 2 trays are pawpaws and none of them have sprouted yet.

Are you going to put them in cold storage or continue to grow them under lights all winter? The instructions that came with my seeds from Empire say to put them in cold storage for a couple months after they put on a few inches of top growth. Wondering if this is necessary, would like to have my trees as large as possible this spring and hope to plant in final destination.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by gunfun13
Are you going to put them in cold storage or continue to grow them under lights all winter? The instructions that came with my seeds from Empire say to put them in cold storage for a couple months after they put on a few inches of top growth. Wondering if this is necessary, would like to have my trees as large as possible this spring and hope to plant in final destination.
==================================
I plan to keep mine under lights growing for 12 to 16 weeks and then transplant them to larger rootmakers. That should put me in mid-Feburary. I may try vernalizing some of them to see how it works. For those, I'll pinch off the leaves probably in March and then put them in my unheated garage. Since they will have just been transplanted, the new mix around the roots should be enough to protect the roots from freezing. After they have been exposed to cold for 30 days, that should take me to early April. Our last threat of frost is typically mid-April. Since they won't have leaves at this point, I'll move them outside in early April and see if they green up. I've been told this can be done with Pawpaws and I plan to try it with some of my AC. I will probably keep some of them under lights until mid-April and then acclimate them to the outdoors. By the end of summer, I'll be able to tell you which method worked best.
Thanks,
Jack

I just got back from muzzleloader hunting at the farm. The ACs had not been watered since I left and they were all pretty dry. Only one or two little ones were hurting. The rest were fine. I watered them and took this picture:

The two trays in the front are pawpaw. They show no signs of life yet.
It looks like we are soon coming to the end of germination of new ACs. I'm up to about 75% germination now.
Thanks
Jack

I just wanted to update with the latest picture. Note that the trees have been reorganized since the previous picture. The larger ACs are now in the middle rather than the back.

Thanks,
Jack

looks great. great work.

I did some counting and reorganizing of the Chinquapins today. I'll probably have about 100 that make it to planting unless I get some kind of unforeseen problem. That will be somewhere between 75% and 80% when all is said an done. I little higher than I previously calculated.
I took this picture focused on the largest tree in the lot. There are a number of them about this size. It is about 8&quot; tall so far:

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Looking good Jack! Not sure how I missed this thread, guess the title made me ignore it as I suck at tree ID.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by Gator
Looking good Jack! Not sure how I missed this thread, guess the title made me ignore it as I suck at tree ID.
==================================
Yep, If I knew how, I'd change the thread title. I probably should have started a new one once I got confirmation on the ID. So far, I'm pretty happy with how they are doing.
I've found a few of them on the property but most are small and haven't produced nuts yet. I recently found one that looks like it was several inches in diameter and was killed by something (blight I presume). It is now re-sprouting from the root system and already has nuts.
These evidently produce nuts faster than chestnuts. I'm pretty impress with how prolific the few I have on the property are. I'm now considering trying sequins next year. The only advantage I see to them is the blight resistance. If I get a prolific tree a couple inches in diameter only to loose it to blight, I take a pretty big hit for a few years even if it eventually bounces back from the root system. However, since the AC nuts were free and I know my soils support them pretty well, I figured I'd propagate them.
Thanks,
Jack

Jack, click on the red triangle. .. report post. Type that you are the OP, and you would like to change the title of your thread. ..

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Yep, If I knew how, I'd change the thread title. I probably should have started a new one once I got confirmation on the ID. So far, I'm pretty happy with how they are doing.
I've found a few of them on the property but most are small and haven't produced nuts yet. I recently found one that looks like it was several inches in diameter and was killed by something (blight I presume). It is now re-sprouting from the root system and already has nuts.
These evidently produce nuts faster than chestnuts. I'm pretty impress with how prolific the few I have on the property are. I'm now considering trying sequins next year. The only advantage I see to them is the blight resistance. If I get a prolific tree a couple inches in diameter only to loose it to blight, I take a pretty big hit for a few years even if it eventually bounces back from the root system. However, since the AC nuts were free and I know my soils support them pretty well, I figured I'd propagate them.
Thanks,
Jack
==================================
I just ordered 10 sequins from the Wildlife Group to try myself after the other thread about them. Going to be keeping my eye on this one as well now that I see that growth you are getting! I like the idea of spacing these bushier types around the perimeter of plots and such.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by Dork fish
Jack, click on the red triangle. .. report post. Type that you are the OP, and you would like to change the title of your thread. ..
==================================
Thanks. I'm sure I could get a moderator to change it, I just didn't think it was worth bothering someone.
Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by Gator
I just ordered 10 sequins from the Wildlife Group to try myself after the other thread about them. Going to be keeping my eye on this one as well now that I see that growth you are getting! I like the idea of spacing these bushier types around the perimeter of plots and such.
==================================
That is exactly how I plan to use my AC. Because we are on a pine farm with limited open area for food plots, our biggest open area is a pipeline ROW that has hard edges. When we had our pines thinned this year, I had them take out a few rows of pines along the pipeline. I plan to use these to soften the edge and plants like AC or Sequin are great for this purpose.
Thanks,
Jack

I had the lights up for watering today so I figured I'd take an updated picture:

Thanks,
Jack

Most recent picture as of today:

I transplanted a few of the larger ones a week or so ago. It was clearly too early and they still had plenty of room in the cells so I stopped transplanting them. Here is the latest picture:

If you look toward the right side in the front row, you will see a tree with leaves that have brown margins. It had some leaves that turned completely brown that I remove. You can see it doesn't seem to be affecting the overall growth of the tree since it is continuing to grow and produce many new leaves at the top. I see this starting on a few other trees.
Does anyone know what disease this might be and how to treat it? Is it easily transmitted from tree to tree? Should I remove these trees from close proximity to the others or cull them altogether?
Thanks,
Jack

Sounds like few enough folks are growing AC indoors from seed that no one is seeing this issue. I have a few trees with these symptoms but not that many.
I transplanted a few more trees tonight. They were all planted immediately when collected in late September. So at 12 weeks after planting, they are not close to filling the 18s. I'm going to give them another month before transplanting any more.
Thanks,
Jack

Jack,
I'm starting to get some brown around the margins on some of my AC as well. I think mine are about a month or so behind yours. Doesn't seem to be bothering them as they continue to put on new growth at the same rate as those with clean green leaves.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm seeing. They continue to grow putting on new vegetation. I'd feel better if I know what it was.

Trophy Doe seems to think that it's a nutrient deficiency of some sort. It's not a cure, but it may provide a good place to start (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthrea...t=50400&amp;page=2

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by Rally1148
Trophy Doe seems to think that it's a nutrient deficiency of some sort. It's not a cure, but it may provide a good place to start (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthrea...t=50400&amp;page=2
==================================
I don't think that is it. My leave don't quite look like his. I'm using osmocote for NPK and micromax for the trace minerals. I'm also watering with rain water.
I think it is something else but I don't know what.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Light deficiency? I'm not using a grow light, just regular T5 florescent bulbs.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by gunfun13
Light deficiency? I'm not using a grow light, just regular T5 florescent bulbs.
==================================
I find that hard to believe. I have not had this issue with hundreds of chestnuts last year and other ACs growing right next to them under the same lights don't have the issue. I believe it is some kind of disease related thing. The affected leaves also tend to curl before the brown edges start. I'm running four 4' two bulb shop lights over a 4'x4' area just a couple inches above the trees.

For what it's worth, every Chestnut or Chinkapin I've ever grown had those brown leaf margins at some point. I have no idea what causes it. They have occurred in every combination of sun/shade, damp/dry, etc.

Jack,
I think the browning of your leaves is insufficient water.
Experiment with one of the brown leafed plants, and water it more than the others.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by TrademarkTexan
For what it's worth, every Chestnut or Chinkapin I've ever grown had those brown leaf margins at some point. I have no idea what causes it. They have occurred in every combination of sun/shade, damp/dry, etc.
==================================
Thanks for that insight. If you look at the affected plan in the picture, you can see some leaves removed. Those leave turned completely brown and curled so I removed them. I figured that they were no longer contributing to the plant at that point and if it was a disease, removing bad material couldn't hurt. Did your AC actually loose leaves or just have a few brown margins?
Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by DanMSU13
Jack,
I think the browning of your leaves is insufficient water.
Experiment with one of the brown leafed plants, and water it more than the others.
==================================
I can't believe it is water. I drench each cell until it is dripping out of the bottom each time I water. I'm getting very active new growth from affected plants. I've check these cells compared to others when I water and they are not drying out any faster than other seedlings. They are the same weight when I pick them up.
Thanks,
Jack

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
I can't believe it is water. I drench each cell until it is dripping out of the bottom each time I water. I'm getting very active new growth from affected plants. I've check these cells compared to others when I water and they are not drying out any faster than other seedlings. They are the same weight when I pick them up.
Thanks,
Jack
==================================
I agree. I'm growing mine in jiffy pellets and they seem to take forever to dry out...root rot has been an issue for me in a few.

Either or, I believe it to be something to do with water. That is a classic sign. Too much, or not enough.
It's not a salinity, nutritional, or insect/disease issue.
Plants are annoying in that regard. It would be nice if they talked back and said their stomach hurt.
Good luck growing them, and keep an eye out for blight. I am curious if some will be more or less resistant.

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by DanMSU13
Either or, I believe it to be something to do with water. That is a classic sign. Too much, or not enough.
It's not a salinity, nutritional, or insect/disease issue.
Plants are annoying in that regard. It would be nice if they talked back and said their stomach hurt.
Good luck growing them, and keep an eye out for blight. I am curious if some will be more or less resistant.
==================================
If you told me I was watering too frequently, I could buy that more than too little water. It is sometimes hard to judge when they are dry enough. I agree it is not likely salinity or nutritional. I don't have enough experience with insect/disease to completely rule them out myself.
I try letting them dry out a bit more and see if that helps.
Thanks,
Jack

While I have some AC and seedling guys looking at this thread, I'd like to get some feedback on a plan.
I took a tray of these and a few in 5&quot; bags and put them in a cooler room. There is no artificial light, just daylight from a window. It is probably 50 to 60 degrees in the room. I plan to cut back on the water to these plants and provide no more fertilizer.
After a week or two, I plan to remove all of the leaves. I then plan to take them to my attached unheated garage. Temperatures here drop below freezing at night outside but it is rare for them to get in the single digits. The garage probably keeps things 5 or 10 degrees warmer than the outside temperatures. I plan to put the cells and bags in cardboard boxes and mulch them into the boxes for insulation. I also have an oil filled electric heater with an anti-freeze setting. I plan to place this next to the boxes.
My intent is to force dormancy for 30 to 45 days.
Here is what I'm trying to accomplish:
1) Since these seeds were planted in September, if I just keep them growing under lights until spring and then acclimate them to the outdoors, I'm afraid they will just stall out and not grow much if at all during the summer.
2) Because they have been growing under artificial light so long, they are getting lanky. I'm thinking that if they take a rest and harden off, they will be ready to start growing again when I take them outside in the spring.
Does anyone have any thoughts as to whether this will work? I don't have the resources to ease them into dormancy by reducing light and temperature slowly over time.
Thanks,
Jack

That is a very interesting experiment, and I am looking forward to the results.
One thing i would suggest trying is before you take them to the garage for good, maybe put them in it for an hour the first day, 3 the next, 5, or so to acclimate them slower. I think the sudden temperature change would be more harmful towards your seedlings. Also I'm glad you are mulching them, especially to protect the roots which will be more sensitive than the shoots. Watch for mice though. Sounds like you are making them a nice home.
I understand thay you wanted to get a head start on the growing season, but i think it's more work than it's worth. Instead, I think a better plan is to gather the nuts, consider giving them a quick hot bathe to kill weevils, cold stratify them with VERY LITTLE moisture until February, then in march add moisture and watch for roots. Obviously, this doesn't help you this year though.

Also, it would be great if you kept a control group of 10 seedlings and left them indoors under the lights to compare them to your other seedlings in the future.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by DanMSU13
That is a very interesting experiment, and I am looking forward to the results.
One thing i would suggest trying is before you take them to the garage for good, maybe put them in it for an hour the first day, 3 the next, 5, or so to acclimate them slower. I think the sudden temperature change would be more harmful towards your seedlings. Also I'm glad you are mulching them, especially to protect the roots which will be more sensitive than the shoots. Watch for mice though. Sounds like you are making them a nice home.
I understand thay you wanted to get a head start on the growing season, but i think it's more work than it's worth. Instead, I think a better plan is to gather the nuts, consider giving them a quick hot bathe to kill weevils, cold stratify them with VERY LITTLE moisture until February, then in march add moisture and watch for roots. Obviously, this doesn't help you this year though.
==================================
I tried to do something similar with chestnuts last year but it turned out to be a disaster. What I found out is that cold stratification slows as moisture levels drop and at a certain point is ceases. This doesn't hurt the nuts but they don't cold stratify. I was trying to time my stratification so they would be producing root radicles when I wanted to plant them.
What a mess. I ended up trying to force germination by adding both heat and moisture. What I got was lots of mold issues.
This year, I changed my process based largely on how Big8 does it. He seems to have the timing worked out pretty good. This year got messed up because I was not able to get my chestnuts until mid to late October rather than late September like in most years. My plan was to stratify them with the necessary moisture and keep them in cold storage until the produce root radicles. My target was Jan 1st. Well, mold issues have been minimal but I still have no root radicles. There is plenty of moisture and I have temp up to 38 degrees. I still have my fingers crossed that this will work out.
Since ACs don't need cold stratification, they are a horse of a different color. They really want to germinate ASAP. My guess is that in nature, they actually germinate in September or early October and some how make it through the winter. Like Chestnuts, they are high in carbs making them susceptible to mold.
I may try to delay them somewhat next year, but I understand that with AC, that may reduce germination rates. It is certainly worth a try.
I like your acclimation idea. I think what I might try since it is this. For the trees in 5&quot; bags, the root should be fairly protected. I transplanted them early so much of the mix will act as root insulation in addition to the mulch. So I think I'll put those in the garage and leave them. I think I'll use your idea for the plants in the tray. One box should be easy to move back and forth for a few days. I'll put in the garage when I get up in the morning and put them back in the room they are now at night.
I just thought of one more alternative. The room they are in has a window. I can place one of my remote thermometer/hydrometer sensors in that room and crack the window slightly. I should be able to lower the temperature in that room a little at a time. Perhaps I should use that as a way to force dormancy rather than removing the leaves manually.
Now you got me thinking....
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Just thought I'd provide an update on how things are going. I ended up sealing off the room and opening a window slightly. The temperature is ranging from the low 40s to the low 50s right now. I think I'll easily be able to force dormancy this way.
Today, I did some pruning. First, I clipped off all of the leaves that had the browning and curling issue. I then clipped of as many more as needed to reduce to leaf mass by about 50% total. I gave them a drink since some were getting pretty dry, and put them back in the cool room.
I plan to leave them there for another week and then re-evaluate.
Thanks,
Jack

Any updates Jack? The vast majority of my chinkapins are now experiencing browning, while wild pears and chestnuts grow health under the exact same conditions. I'm wondering if it's an overwatering/root rot issue that they're prone too? I thought that once the seedlings got bigger the soil would dry faster, but it doesn't seem to be the case..I'd say I'm watering less than once a week currently.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by gunfun13
Any updates Jack? The vast majority of my chinkapins are now experiencing browning, while wild pears and chestnuts grow health under the exact same conditions. I'm wondering if it's an overwatering/root rot issue that they're prone too? I thought that once the seedlings got bigger the soil would dry faster, but it doesn't seem to be the case..I'd say I'm watering less than once a week currently.
==================================
I'm starting to think I made a mistake but only time will tell. I took all of my trays of AC and put them in the cold room. I have slowly been removing leaves. Growth has stalled as expected. I also have half a dozen in root trapper bags that are in the cold room with the same treatment.
My control group is 4 AC that were transplanted into 1 gal RM2s that are still under lights in the warm room. They are doing fine. Growth has slowed on them but they are still green and actively growing.
This whole idea of the cold room came from a conversation I had with Cliff England about pawpaws. My AC were free because I collected the seed from trees on my place. They are well ahead of the pawpaw so I thought I'd try it with them. I wanted the warm room space for my chestnuts as well.
I thought my pawpaws were getting close to being ready for the cold room treatment. I decided to have another back and forth with Cliff before moving forward. I sent him a picture of my pawpaws and he looked at the picture and said they were still 50 to 60 days from hardening. He said that if I tried to give them the cold treatment before they were hardened it would kill them. He said the tips will turn brown when they are ready. He said that if I don't rest them, they will still continue to grow during the extra long growing season, but not as much as if I rest them for 30 days.
Now I don't know if there is a direct translation with ACs. If there is, then I put them into cold treatment too early and they will likely die.
So, that is the latest on the ACs.
Given Cliff's suggested timing, it will be mid to late March before it is time to give the cold treatment to the pawpaws. Right now, I'm thinking of trying it on just a few of them and just keeping the rest under lights.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

END OF TRANSFER FROM QDMA FORUMS

 

[yoderjac]

Found another one growing wild on the farm today:

 

[yoderjac]

Updated Picture links.