Allegheny Chinquapin - Transferred from QDMA Forums

[yoderjac]

Anyone have insight to these things. I live in southern Kansas (6a); gets hot/dry in the summer, and cold/dry (a couple of weeks below 20) in the winter.
How well do they survive?
How soon do they produce?
Just want some general info about them.
Thanks!

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Originally Posted by catscratch
Anyone have insight to these things. I live in southern Kansas (6a); gets hot/dry in the summer, and cold/dry (a couple of weeks below 20) in the winter.
How well do they survive?
How soon do they produce?
Just want some general info about them.
Thanks!
==================================
I'm in zone 7a in central VA. They grow natively on my property. The produce very quickly. They are susceptible to the blight but seem to react differently than chestnuts. Chestnuts tend to stop producing nuts once hit. ACs seem to die back and then resprout from the root system produce more nuts in a few years. Most of mine seem to take more of a bush from rather than a tree form. I have a few that have made it to tree form with a few inches of caliper and 12 to 15 feet of height. I wonder of the blight tends to keep them from getting this big in general.
My soil is fairly heavy clay. I seem to find them growing on edges where they get good light. They appear along my pipeline edges and roadways. They produce a single nut per husk bit it is formed similar to a chestnut but with no flat side. They taste like chestnuts to me My native ACs open in mid September and drop the nuts from the husks. However, on another thread, someone in NC said that his don't ripen until October.
There is a Chinese version that is blight resistant commonly called Sequin or dwarf Chinese chestnut. I just ordered a bunch of these nuts. They are supposed to arrive in December.
I plan to direct seed them in a clear-cut that will be burned every few years. They should produce good deer food but outside the season (which is what I want in a bedding area). They are said to respond to fire well (AC too) and bounce back quickly from the root system once fire moves through.
Last fall I collected AC nuts and started them in 18s when fresh. I got very good germination and you can see pictures on other threads. The problem is that I planted them too early. I tried to force most of them into dormancy by placing them in a cold room and removing leaves. It did not work. Most of them died. I did keep a few and they seem to be doing pretty well. I'll be planting them soon.
My timing was bad this year and we have a very spotty acorn crop. By the time I got to them, most were gone. I only got about 7 nuts this year. I'm trying to store them without added moisture since they don't need to stratify. I plan to wait until at least December before germinating them this year along with the Sequins.
That is my experience for what it is worth.
Thanks,
Jack

Thanks for the reply. They sound like a pretty good plant. I would prefer them to be a shrub rather than a tree. Looks like the Chinese version would probably be the better choice for my long term goals...
Who did you order your nuts from?

Schumacher. (Not sure if that is spelled correctly). I'm not sure if blight is in your area or not. It is clearly in the original range of the American Chestnut.

<https://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71215
here is a link to a thread I started about mine, I really like them so far,,,
my burs have still not opened

I'll try them if I can come up with some. I would rather start with bareroots but seeds will do if that's all I can find.
Thanks for the info guys and if you have some more sources let me know.

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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Schumacher. (Not sure if that is spelled correctly). I'm not sure if blight is in your area or not. It is clearly in the original range of the American Chestnut.
==================================
Jack... I hope you get yours from Schumacher. Ordered some last year and they kept delaying shipment. Finally I gave up and canceled my order.
Matt

The seed dealers are at the mercy of their seed collectors. Collector expects a crop, tells dealer it will be incoming. Dealer tells customers it will be outgoing. Collector starts picking seed, discovers it is ruined by insects this year. All transactions cancelled.
This seed is difficult to acquire but there is a demand for it, in some scale. If you have a decent crop of this seed, get in touch and I can put you in touch with people that want to purchase it. I understand that folks here are likely managing this species for it to feed wildlife, and that is great. But to increase the amount of this one on the landscape via plantings, the seed has to come from somewhere.

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Originally Posted by mattpatt
Jack... I hope you get yours from Schumacher. Ordered some last year and they kept delaying shipment. Finally I gave up and canceled my order.
Matt
==================================
Yep, these seeds are coming form China. Lots of stuff can go wrong. I couldn't find them anywhere else.

Catscratch - should you decide to go with the Allegheny Chinquapin it's hard to beat the pricing on the 2 yr old bare root seedlings from the West Virginia Dept of Forestry.
You can get 25 seedlings for $50 or 100 seedlings for $80.
I've ordered from them in the past and have been impressed with their trees!
http://epay.wvsto.com/Shopping%20Car...uapin-C20.aspx

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Originally Posted by CuivreDog
Catscratch - should you decide to go with the Allegheny Chinquapin it's hard to beat the pricing on the 2 yr old bare root seedlings from the West Virginia Dept of Forestry.
You can get 25 seedlings for $50 or 100 seedlings for $80.
I've ordered from them in the past and have been impressed with their trees!
http://epay.wvsto.com/Shopping%20Car...uapin-C20.aspx
==================================
Thanks for the link. I haven't seen anything that looks better, I am going to order from them tonight!

Quote:
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Originally Posted by CuivreDog
Catscratch - should you decide to go with the Allegheny Chinquapin it's hard to beat the pricing on the 2 yr old bare root seedlings from the West Virginia Dept of Forestry.
You can get 25 seedlings for $50 or 100 seedlings for $80.
I've ordered from them in the past and have been impressed with their trees!
http://epay.wvsto.com/Shopping%20Car...uapin-C20.aspx
==================================
I may not order those. Are they the Chinquapin that is susceptible to blight? If so then I might want to shift my attention to the Dwarf Chinese or Sequin Chestnut.
What's your thoughts guys?

 

[yoderjac]

Others might disagree, but I'd be concerned that Kansas soils are too alkaline for Chestnut or Chinquapin to do well.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by catscratch
I may not order those. Are they the Chinquapin that is susceptible to blight? If so then I might want to shift my attention to the Dwarf Chinese or Sequin Chestnut.
What's your thoughts guys?
==================================
I can't speak to your soils but it is something to consider. As for the blight, I'm using both. I have AC growing native. The problem with blight on chestnuts is that they don't produce nuts. My native ACs die back because of blight but then regrow. It does not seem to affect nut production. Since I get nuts from my native ACs for free, I'm using them as well as the Sequin. Or I hope I'm using Sequin. We will find out in December. They were quite up front that they would not arrive until December.
Thanks,
Jack

Quote:
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Originally Posted by mattpatt
Jack... I hope you get yours from Schumacher. Ordered some last year and they kept delaying shipment. Finally I gave up and canceled my order.
Matt
==================================
Matt,
I can't say you didn't warn me. I placed the order in late September and they told me at that time they expected delivery in December. I called earlier this week and they told me they are now expecting them in early January. I guess since these don't need cold stratified, it doesn't hurt me too much if they delay a bit as long as they deliver by spring and the seed is viable. It would be nice to try vernalizing some and get an early start indoors, but as long as I get them by spring, they will still be useful to me.
What bugs me is that they charged my credit card in September. If they know their suppliers are unreliable (Understandable given they come from China), I think it is very poor form to charge the credit card at the time of order if delivery is uncertain. While the amount of my cash they are sitting on is small, it probably adds up across a large customer base and they make money on the float.
Thanks,
Jack

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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Matt,
I can't say you didn't warn me. I placed the order in late September and they told me at that time they expected delivery in December. I called earlier this week and they told me they are now expecting them in early January. I guess since these don't need cold stratified, it doesn't hurt me too much if they delay a bit as long as they deliver by spring and the seed is viable. It would be nice to try vernalizing some and get an early start indoors, but as long as I get them by spring, they will still be useful to me.
What bugs me is that they charged my credit card in September. If they know their suppliers are unreliable (Understandable given they come from China), I think it is very poor form to charge the credit card at the time of order if delivery is uncertain. While the amount of my cash they are sitting on is small, it probably adds up across a large customer base and they make money on the float.
Thanks,
Jack
==================================
Jack,
Doesn't surprise me about the delay. I do hope you get them though. I'm kinda on the fence when it comes to ordering stuff from Schumacher. I got everything else I ordered last year but the acorns all had caps, were dirty and there was even dirt clods and other debris in a few of tbe bags. It was like they went out and bagged them direct from the tree and didn't bother to pick though them. A good many of the sawtooths floated or had damage. I also didn't get very good germination rates. Makes me wonder if they store them properly. Just my experience. Their prices are good enough that I can overlook some of the issues though.
Matt

Kansas forestry has the chinkapin but I don't know which one,I know it's spelled different but that's the way they spelled it,is it the same.They were part of my original planting plan but they never took in my soil so the forester dropped them.

I think the Kansas forestry sells the native Chinquapin oak trees. I have a bunch of those and they fit their description.

Catscratch,
I am curious if you think the &quot;Alleghency Chinkapin&quot; will do well on your place? I have three trays of rootmaker 18s with AC in them. At the current time 63 out 72 have top growth.
Let me know what you think will work for you. I might be able to help a south Kansas fellow out.
Brushpile gave me the AC at no cost. Seems fair for me to share a few with other states.
Photo of my best tray about a week ago.

I think there is a decent chance they would do well here, I would certainly put some efort into them to see. I would be glad to pay for shipping and a little extra $ for your time in growing them. I would also take a couple of the over to buckdeer1 as I think he is interested and doesn't live far from me.

 

[yoderjac]

They do well on my property especially on the rocky areas.I collect the burrs around shortly after laborday.If I don't the critters get them,before they pop right before.I got a lone chineese chestnut downwind of them which I collected some nuts off of.Hoping for an interesting hybred of some kind.

I will try to ship one dozen freebies to you on tax day. You can share what you wish with Buckdeer1. If we plant in different locations, our odds of success increase. I am thinking they will bear sooner than most items do.
I think we can decide about the shipping cost then. I just don't think I will have the funds to protect all of these. Growing / acquiring is not the big cost, protection is where the cost racks up.
They were started in November so by mid-april we should have good seedlings.
Just my way of giving back - brushpile helped me out.
It will work well if you remind me about April fools. I will be busy. I do keep a clip board of things to do but ....

Lol, April is a long ways away for me too. I'll try to send you a reminder around then.
Thanks for your generosity! I'll give them my best shot.

Not to inject myself in someone else's transaction but...
You guys may want to consider shipping them a bit sooner. The delema is the cold during shipping for an actively growing tree verses too much time in an 18. If you transplant them to 1 gal sooner, your shipping cost goes way up. You might consider looking for a warm spell when they are close to 16 weeks in for shipping.
Thanks,
Jack

Jack,
I thought about my dates after I had posted. I would think you he would not want to plant anything green that soon get hits by a late frost.
I can ship to him bare root after I have had them 14-16 weeks in rootmaker 18s. For the first time I shipped to Brushpile chestnuts that I had moved up to rootmaker II containers.
I just washed them with a hose pipe, put a yard stick in the box with wood chips and damp soil. Brush was pleased.
I wrote the date on my yellow stick labels on the trays - I think I started them around 11-8-15. I can get an exact date.
Thanks for the heads up.

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Originally Posted by wbpdeer
Jack,
I thought about my dates after I had posted. I would think you he would not want to plant anything green that soon get hits by a late frost.
I can ship to him bare root after I have had them 14-16 weeks in rootmaker 18s. For the first time I shipped to Brushpile chestnuts that I had moved up to rootmaker II containers.
I just washed them with a hose pipe, put a yard stick in the box with wood chips and damp soil. Brush was pleased.
I wrote the date on my yellow stick labels on the trays - I think I started them around 11-8-15. I can get an exact date.
Thanks for the heads up.
==================================
I have had poor results planting directly from 18s compared to 1 gal RB2s. I would suggest that Cat finish them in the 1 gals. If you ship about the time they are ready for transplant they could be transplanted as soon as they are received. I would target fall planting from 1 gal RB2s.
Thanks,
jack

I'm game for anything. If I need to I'll buy some rootmakers based on your guy's recommendations (they would probably get used often over the next 20yrs). Where I plant them will be within range of a garden hose if that makes any difference in how to proceed. You guys have experience that I don't so give me some pointers and I'll go from there.

Catscratch,
I will ship to you sooner than April. It will be in March some time based upon the date I started the AC in growing medium. That date is written on yellow tags in the rootmaker 18s.
When you get them you will decided to direct plant them or put them in larger containers to carry them over the summer at home and then plant in Sept or thereabouts.
You will have to protect them when you plant them - wire cage or tree tubes. That will be your personal decision. To plant them unprotected is like spitting in the wind. You will not have a happy outcome.
I am marking you down for one dozens - you share what you share with &quot;buckdeer1&quot; assuming he is game.

I don't think it will be a good idea to plant them when I get them as we will still get plenty hard frosts until May...
Who do you guys recommend for a source for rootmakers?

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Originally Posted by catscratch
I'm game for anything. If I need to I'll buy some rootmakers based on your guy's recommendations (they would probably get used often over the next 20yrs). Where I plant them will be within range of a garden hose if that makes any difference in how to proceed. You guys have experience that I don't so give me some pointers and I'll go from there.
==================================
It does. If you can provide supplemental water when needed, Rootmaker grown trees are not restricted to dormant planting. You can plant them in the middle of the summer if you wish. I don't think you really get the full benefits of root pruning containers if you only use a single stage. If you can provide supplemental water trees planted from RM18s will survive, but I don't think they will thrive as well as those planted from 1 or 3 gal RB2s. There is a huge gain in root volume with the larger containers.
As for containers, I'd go with the Rootbuilder II containers if you plan to keep reusing them. They are very nice to plant from and will last for many seasons of use compared to bags. I would transplant from 18s to 1 gal RB2s in 12-16 weeks after top growth begins. The ACs don't grow very fast, so I probably wouldn't go to 3 gal containers with these. For chestnuts which grow very fast, I got great results going from 18s to 1 gal RB2s and then to 3 gal RB2s in one season. Here is my thread on that: <https://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70361
Quote:
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Originally Posted by catscratch
I don't think it will be a good idea to plant them when I get them as we will still get plenty hard frosts until May...
Who do you guys recommend for a source for rootmakers?
==================================
When I first started testing the RMs and just wanted a few containers, I bought mine from John at Big Rock Trees. I think he frequents the habitat-talk forum. He was very helpful when I was working with cuttings. His prices and shipping was reasonable for small volumes.
When I decided to go high volume, I established a commercial account with Rootmaker. It was quite easy. Our pine farm setup as an LLC and I just called them and gave them the basic information. They gave me a wholesale account. Once you have that, you can see the wholesale prices on line. They are very competitive. The only issue is shipping. With the Express Trays (18s) and the 3 gal RB2s, you have high shipping. That is because the Express trays themselves come from on factory and the cells come from another and the RB2 sides come from one factory and the bottoms from another. You don't have this issue with the 1 gal RB2s. Both bottoms and sides come from the same factory so shipping is closer to what you would expect.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Thank you for the information! I did a quick google search and found 1 gallon RB2's for $3.60 and up. I don't know John from Big Rock but I'll try to find him on HT and see if he has any he will part with. Does he go by &quot;John-W-WI&quot;
I took a couple of hours yesterday and dug holes, made cages, and put together tree tubes. I still need to make some stakes but I'm almost ready for spring...

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Originally Posted by catscratch
Thank you for the information! I did a quick google search and found 1 gallon RB2's for $3.60 and up. I don't know John from Big Rock but I'll try to find him on HT and see if he has any he will part with. Does he go by &quot;John-W-WI&quot;
I took a couple of hours yesterday and dug holes, made cages, and put together tree tubes. I still need to make some stakes but I'm almost ready for spring...
==================================
Here is the big rock site: <http://www.bigrocktrees.com/rootmaker.html I don't see an RB2 containers listed but it may be worth a call.
I think I pay about $2 for 1 gal RB2s from Rootmaker plus shipping. That is in quantity of 50.
Thanks,
Jack

I see Rootmakers on Big Rock's site, but no Rootbuilders. Is there a significant difference between the Rootmaker and Rootbuilder for our purposes (besides the ease of planting due to takedown design)?
Once again, thanks! I'm always learning stuff here...

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Originally Posted by catscratch
I see Rootmakers on Big Rock's site, but no Rootbuilders. Is there a significant difference between the Rootmaker and Rootbuilder for our purposes (besides the ease of planting due to takedown design)?
Once again, thanks! I'm always learning stuff here...
==================================
Rootmaker is the name of the company. Rootbuilder is the name of one of their container series. I like it a lot. It is easier to reuse them and plant from than bags. They are sold as a kit with sides and a bottom. The sides wrap around the bottom and have many protrusions that direct roots to holes at the end. The bottoms are designed to route the roots that hit them to the lower holes on the sides. Once wrapped around the bottom, the sides are locked in place with cable ties. When it is time to plant, you cut the cable ties and the sides unwrap from the root ball. It comes out easily and completely intact. You simply replace the cable ties to reuse them. I like them better than the rootmaker round or square injection molded containers.
You can go to the rootmaker site to see what they have: <http://rootmaker.com/
You can click on the wholesale or retail store to see products. If you don't have an account, you can't see the prices on the wholesale store, but you can see the quantities wholesale is sold in. All the Rootmaker products will root prune.
My guess is that Big Rock can order you about anything you want from Rootmaker if you don't want to order from them directly. I probably depends on how many you want whether it is worth it for him to special order. I'm sure there are other sources that sell Rootmaker containers. I would start with the Rootmaker site I linked above to figure out what you want and then look for the best prices you can find.
Thanks,
Jack

Got it! I saw there molded pots and thought they were the Rootmakers and the take down ones were Rootbuilders.
I've found lots of different pots of this style on the internet and long roles of it too. Would the roles be any use without the bottoms? I thought the bottom was part of the root pruning process also.

We value our resources the way we do - not everyone spends their money the same way. The attached photo shows two containers. One I value greatly and the other I have chalked up to something I will not spend any more time or money on. Others may think differently and that is good (if you are paying - you are saying).
The rootmaker II container has the tall Chinese Chestnut in it with the leaves beginning to change color. As they go dormant - they do so in stages. It is nature's way. That container is something I like and will continue to use. When you take it apart and look at the rootball when it has been in the container long enough - you would see why it will remain part of my resources. These containers are rugged and will last multiple grow seasons.
The container on the right is a one gallon rootmaker purchased from &quot;Big Rock&quot; before I had much experience. I like Big Rock and purchase many items from him (14 rootmaker Express 18s in two years for one example). I put my Dunstans I had purchase from Pike County in the pot on the right side (most of my were planted directly from 18s).
A seedling upgraded to each of these two types of containers will not winding up equal in my opinion. I want my seedlings to become trees. I believe the rootmaker / rootbuilder II is how I get what I want.
My seedlings are in a protective cage in the photo due to squirrels - they killed some of my best seedlings digging for chestnuts. I encourage my fellow habitat users to spend their money on what they believe works for them.

Your experience and success is why I'm asking you so many question. I respect the knowledge you've gained and would like to gain from it also (before spending $$ on something that is less than ideal). I intend to take good care of my future plants and attempts at seedling starts so research is import as well as experiments.
In your pic above I see that the rootbuilder plants appear taller and slightly larger caliber on average than the one's in the injection molded pots. Is this for the most part true or just how you have them arranged for the pic?

Catscratch,
I had an unlimited supply of Chinese Chestnuts and ordered just one pound of Dunstan from Pike County Illinois. I planted the best Dunstans I had out of the pound supply on my farm.
Of the thousands of Chinese chestnuts I had, I kept the very best looking nuts for myself. I worked at a loss - not a profit. I only charge $6 a box where the postage was $5.95 This project gave me great satisfaction but represents a negative cash flow to improve habitat for whitetail deer and landowners.
I gave away the less attractive Chinese chestnuts seedlings to my election friends for free. These factors are part of why you see a visual difference.
I don't have a photo to show but when you pull these plants from their containers - the rootbuilder II one gallon has an impressive rootball. I shipped some bareroot where I had to pull the root ball and wash away the growing medium with a hose pipe. They were impressive!
I believe the Dunstan is a more tender tree than the Chinese chestnuts. I formed two fence rows with the dunstans on a bottom field. For human consumption, people say the Dunstans taste better.
The rootbuilder II drain very well. I wish I had of read about using mini-pine bark to mix with my quality growing medium. I will definitely be doing that at this point forward.
I hope my explanation lets you know I don't wish to mislead people. The dunstans I had left were the poorest seedlings I grew out of a one pound group. My purpose of the photo is to show exactly what I prefer.

 

[yoderjac]

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Originally Posted by catscratch
Your experience and success is why I'm asking you so many question. I respect the knowledge you've gained and would like to gain from it also (before spending $$ on something that is less than ideal). I intend to take good care of my future plants and attempts at seedling starts so research is import as well as experiments.
In your pic above I see that the rootbuilder plants appear taller and slightly larger caliber on average than the one's in the injection molded pots. Is this for the most part true or just how you have them arranged for the pic?
==================================
I will say this. Dr. Carl Whitcomb pioneered the root pruning pots. After doing a lot of research I decided to go with Rootmaker which is the company he is related to. There are now lots of other brands of containers on the market aimed at root pruning. They all have various degrees of effectiveness and issues. Many on these forums have tried alternatives trying to reduce cost. I found that I could set up a wholesale account with Rootmaker and with that, most of the premium vanishes and they are competitively priced with the alternatives.
If you go with rootmaker containers, there is no doubt you will get good results. The newer containers like RB2s were designed to address some of the issues with the original Round pots (the ones on the right in Wayne's picture). If you go with another brand, I'll tell you what I tell others. First read Dr. Whitcomb's papers and get a good understanding of the concepts behind root pruning. Then when you look at other brands, as yourself if or how well the container design supports those underlying concepts.
Rootmaker has several types of containers that address different needs. For example, I use 18s for propagating most nuts for the first stage, 12-16 weeks. However, I use 32s for nuts that like to be vernalized (DCO for one and I'm trying it with AC as well). I do this because I use a refrigerator to vernalize nuts. I put the entire try in an XXL ziplock storage bag. Since refrigerator space is limited, I can vernalize twice the number of nuts with a 32 in the same space.
I've use the 5&quot; roottrapper bags. They retain water much better, but they don't prune larger roots like a tap root. The prune by trapping the root tip and keeping it from circling or j-hooking rather than air pruning it. A large tap root may be too large for the fabric to trap and it may circle. So, if I'm planting from seed or nut, I always use an 18 or 32 first to prune the tap root before using a 5&quot; bag. These are coated with PVC and retain water much better. They work well in an environment where the ability to water regularly is limited. They fit in a cement block with helps keep the upright in wind and also helps them retain water. I like them for cuttings where there is a large distance between buds like yellow twig dogwood or elderberry. Cuttings don't produce a tap root. I've tried to do these cuttings in 18s, but they stick up so tall out of the container, it is easy to bump them at tear roots. The bags allow the top buds to be just above the soil line.
One advantage of the RB2 over the injected plastic or round containers is heat control. The protrusions tend to shade the protrusions below them. They are very well drained as wayne says. They prune lateral roots at each protrusion. The round containers route those roots down to the next tier.
As to your questions about bottoms for the RB2s, yes they are important. Rootmaker sells RB2 kits that include both sides and bottoms. They also sell the sides in a bulk roll and bottoms for larger containers so you can cut your own custom size. Personally, I don't see a need to go larger than a 3 gal RB2 for my third and last stage. Transport and planting of larger trees becomes much more difficult. By the time roots have filled a 3 gal RB2, you have a pretty high percentage of root pruning benefit.
My best success for most trees like chestnuts is shown in the thread I referenced earlier. It is 18s indoors in the winter followed by 1 gal RB2 at 12-16 weeks and then at late spring or early summer to 3 gal RB2s. My test trees were a little over 3/4&quot; in caliper in 1 season. My Dunstan that took more of the American form was over 6' tall and one that took the Chinese form had just as much leaf mass but was not as tall because of all the early lateral branching.
Best of luck with whatever route you go.
Thanks,
Jack

Hey Jack,
I started my Allegheny Chinkapin on November 11th. Brushpile sent me a bag of AC and they needed to get going.
I am going to have about 65 to 68 make seedlings. I am going to donate 24 to Brushpile &amp; Catscratch.
What do you suggest I do with these. I would think April 15 to 20th is the week I could put them in the ground &amp; not worry about frost issues.
Would you step them up to 1 gallon RBs II? Would you try to stretch them in 18s?
My goal is to get in the ground before June - I will be able to water these as needed.
I am asking because this is my first time with AC and I like how they look thus far. I really don't want to mess up.
As always, you help is greatly appreciated.

 

[yoderjac]

Point taken. I was looking for better deals and found some stuff on ebay that I thought looked the same as the Rootbuilders, but why mess with what is proven. I'll get a handful of Rootmakers for this.
Still not 100% sure what is best: put them in the ground when I get them and water them this summer, or put them in 1 gal RB2's and fall plant them.
Why do you guys start them in 18's, why not just start in the 1gallon pots? Is it to save space? Do you not put them in the 1 gallon pots until it's time to put them outside?

Quote:
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Originally Posted by wbpdeer
Hey Jack,
I started my Allegheny Chinkapin on November 11th. Brushpile sent me a bag of AC and they needed to get going.
I am going to have about 65 to 68 make seedlings. I am going to donate 24 to Brushpile &amp; Catscratch.
What do you suggest I do with these. I would think April 15 to 20th is the week I could put them in the ground &amp; not worry about frost issues.
Would you step them up to 1 gallon RBs II? Would you try to stretch them in 18s?
My goal is to get in the ground before June - I will be able to water these as needed.
I am asking because this is my first time with AC and I like how they look thus far. I really don't want to mess up.
As always, you help is greatly appreciated.
==================================
April 15th well past 16 weeks. My guess is that they will be root bound in the 18s by then. If it were me, I would upsize to 1 gal RB2s when they become hard to top water. That is generally between 12 and 16 weeks. Whitcomb says it is better to transplant a little early than a little late. I would keep them in the 1 gals as long as you can before planting them provided you can provide supplemental water during the summer. I found that ACs don't grow quickly. If you don't already have 1 gal RB2s and don't need them for another purpose long term and plan to plant before June, you can probably save some money and buy 5&quot; roottrapper bags. I don't think the roots will fill the 1 gals by June. The 5&quot; bags are a little harder to plant from but less expensive. They can be reused a few times by using a stapler to close up where you cut the stitching to remove them for planting. They don't last as long as the RB2s, so if you have other uses for RB2s in the future, that is a better long-term buy.
If you already have both 1 gal RB2s and 5&quot; RT bags, I'd use the bags for these and save the 1 gals for something you are keeping a bit longer in containers.
Thanks,
Jack

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by catscratch
Point taken. I was looking for better deals and found some stuff on ebay that I thought looked the same as the Rootbuilders, but why mess with what is proven. I'll get a handful of Rootmakers for this.
Still not 100% sure what is best: put them in the ground when I get them and water them this summer, or put them in 1 gal RB2's and fall plant them.
Why do you guys start them in 18's, why not just start in the 1gallon pots? Is it to save space? Do you not put them in the 1 gallon pots until it's time to put them outside?
==================================
Catscratch,
You should read up on the underlying principles of root pruning. Here is one of Whitcomb's articles on the 4&quot; rule: <http://rootmaker.com/sites/default/f...nchRuleWeb.pdf We don't follow it precisely for practical purposes, but try to find the right balance with the 4&quot; rule as the target.
In short, the tree puts a lot of energy into developing a deep tap root as insurance against drought. When we use an 18, the tap root gets pruned quickly. That energy goes into both faster top growth and more and more upstream root branching creating that dense root system with many tiny root tips for the uptake of water and nutrients. The idea of using a system of containers is to prune the roots in stages to maximize this but transplanting them before the trees become root bound in the container which slows and eventually stops growth.
Thanks,
jack

Good article. It appears (from the pics) that each plant grows the same amount but in a different way or form. I bet the total mass of each (tap root plant and air pruned plant) is close to the same. The 4in rule neccitates a series of increasing pot size where as starting in larger pots will allow the tap root to get to old before pruning, then radial roots don't form as well.
How long has air pruning been around? Does it show that it's advantageous for a 20yr old oak tree to have a fibrous root system over a tap root?

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by catscratch
Good article. It appears (from the pics) that each plant grows the same amount but in a different way or form. I bet the total mass of each (tap root plant and air pruned plant) is close to the same. The 4in rule neccitates a series of increasing pot size where as starting in larger pots will allow the tap root to get to old before pruning, then radial roots don't form as well.
How long has air pruning been around? Does it show that it's advantageous for a 20yr old oak tree to have a fibrous root system over a tap root?
==================================
You can take a look at the Rootmaker videos. They have a free dvd that shows quite large trees. My sense is that the real advantage is a faster growing tree that is more vulnerable to a major drought in areas with a low water table. A naturally growing tree puts a lot of energy into a taproot at the expense of secondary and tertiary roots. It is the number of fine root tips that uptake the water and nutrients that drives growth. However, this deep tap root ensures that the tree will survive a drought if it can get down to the water table. Personally, I would probably not be planting rootmaker trees in a wildlife environment in an arid region where they won't get supplemental water during a drought. In areas where the water table is high or rain is more reliable, they seem to be the perfect solution. They increase the availability of nutrients and water early in life allowing trees to mature faster.
There is no free lunch. Everything is a trade off. Root pruning trades drought insurance in the early years of a tree's life for faster growth and a better developed root system. I believe Dr. Whitcomb pioneered the commercial containers but had done a lot of research before that. I'm sure there are 20+ year old trees around since Dr. Whitcomb now has over 40 years of research under his belt. I have not heard any later life issues with root pruned trees. On the other hand, J-hooking and circling can cause well known issues in the later life of trees grown in smooth sided containers.
I have not been using root pruning containers to personally have any experience with 20 year old trees, but I've found nothing in my searching that would suggest there are issues.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by catscratch
Does it show that it's advantageous for a 20yr old oak tree to have a fibrous root system over a tap root?
==================================
Just my opinion but I think it depends on your local climate. Down here in Texas, we go through periods of drought and very hot summers. It's not uncommon for us to go without a drop of rain for 6 weeks or more in the summer. Having that extra long tap root would give the trees the best shot at survival when you don't have the option of supplemental watering. It's taken me two years of growing trees in rootmakers to realize this. The verdict is still out for me on which is better because I sure do like the fibrous root system the rootmaker creates but it sure seems like direct seeding is the way to go for me. That's not to say rootmaker grown trees won't survive here you just have to count on supplemental watering for 2-3 years during periods of drought until they can get established. Even direct seeding is not a full proof method during drought as you nearly have to bet on supplemental watering for at least the first year but I think it at least gives the tree a fighting chance.
The other option I'm experimenting with is to start trees in rootmakers and gradually move them up to bigger pots over the course of 3-4 years. The theory is that after 3-4 years the root mass will be big enough to be able to support the tree during times of drought. This also means that I will be growing less trees this year and shifting from my mass quantity approach to about a quarter of what I grew this year so I can concentrate on growing quality trees instead of just trying to produce as many as I can as quickly as I can.
I've also shifted my approach to growing species that have shown they can survive here. I planted all kinds of stuff the first couple years for a variety of reasons but the main one being to see what can take the heat. Allegheny Chinquapin, DCO, Shumard Oak, Sawtooth Oak, Concordia Oak and Chinese Chestnut (to some extent) have been the winners so far.
Matt

I certainly have drought conditions from time to time. We often get into the 100's during the summer and may go 6-8wks without significant rain. That is my concern as I will water them for the first yr, but will probably leave them alone after that.
I can see a purpose for both direct seeding and pots. These AC's that I'm getting ready to get will need rootpruning pots to get them ready for transplant... but I'm not sure that I will replace tap root type trees from direct seeding with pot started plants. I will probably order the 1gallon pots and a tray of 18's so that I can attempt both side by side to see results at my place.
I do have to admit that I haven't watched the Rootmaker video's yet and that may change my mind.

Each method has it good and bad. You just have to weigh it all out and see which one makes sense for you. I grew 300 chestnut seedlings last year in Rootmaker Express 18s. They all did very well but I had to baby them constantly and water every day during the summer. That's something else you need to think about before you start a rootmaker project and plan to use 18s. Make sure you have time to take care of them during the hot summer. They will most likely require watering every day.
Matt

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by catscratch
I certainly have drought conditions from time to time. We often get into the 100's during the summer and may go 6-8wks without significant rain. That is my concern as I will water them for the first yr, but will probably leave them alone after that.
I can see a purpose for both direct seeding and pots. These AC's that I'm getting ready to get will need rootpruning pots to get them ready for transplant... but I'm not sure that I will replace tap root type trees from direct seeding with pot started plants. I will probably order the 1gallon pots and a tray of 18's so that I can attempt both side by side to see results at my place.
I do have to admit that I haven't watched the Rootmaker video's yet and that may change my mind.
==================================
A rootmaker tree will much more efficiently utilize water it can reach. Once you plant the tree, root pruning ceases and roots continue to grow normally. So, by the time a tree is mature, roots are a number of feet deep. In an arid region, the soil may dry out to a level of quite a few feet. In a more temperate climate, that generally isn't an issue. Even a prolonged drought may dry out the top foot or less and an established rootmaker tree would likely be fine.
Matt and I have had this conversation before and if I were in the drier portions of TX, I would really have to ask myself if root pruning is the best approach compared to direct seeding.
Also, consider your soil type. Sandy soils drain quickly and don't retain water long. Water and nutrients move quite slowly through clay soils so it take a lot more for them to dry out.
Thanks,
Jack

I was considering the concept of going against the nature of the tree by stopping the tap root and creating more radial roots. Would this ever be beneficial to go against natural tendencies? But then I realized there is nothing unnatural about it at all. In the real world; if the tree can grow a tap root it will, if it runs into an obstruction it ceases putting energy into the tap root and puts it into radial roots. Air pruning simply forces a genetic response to a specific set of conditions.
Where I'm planting is a hill top with a layer of rock about 4-6ft down and heavy soil. Native Burr, Red, and Chinquapin oaks grow well here. I suspect that under these conditions the radial root system would be acceptable and possibly found under many of my natives once the tap root hits the bedrock.
Thanks for the responses, I've learned a lot with this thread and I'm digging for more (still haven't watched Rootmaker video's).

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by catscratch
I was considering the concept of going against the nature of the tree by stopping the tap root and creating more radial roots. Would this ever be beneficial to go against natural tendencies? But then I realized there is nothing unnatural about it at all. In the real world; if the tree can grow a tap root it will, if it runs into an obstruction it ceases putting energy into the tap root and puts it into radial roots. Air pruning simply forces a genetic response to a specific set of conditions.
Where I'm planting is a hill top with a layer of rock about 4-6ft down and heavy soil. Native Burr, Red, and Chinquapin oaks grow well here. I suspect that under these conditions the radial root system would be acceptable and possibly found under many of my natives once the tap root hits the bedrock.
Thanks for the responses, I've learned a lot with this thread and I'm digging for more (still haven't watched Rootmaker video's).
==================================
Keep in mind that different tree species have different lengths of tap root naturally. In general, in nature, it is hard to stop a taproot. If the tap root is blocked it will normally look for another path. That is why trees grown in smooth sided containers end up with j-hooking or circling roots that will eventually retard the tree.
Much of what we do is bending nature. Think about buying a bare root tree. The tree is grown in a bed and then is dug up and the roots and top are pruned by hand. All the energy that was spent growing the roots that were pruned off is lost. The cutting creates open wounds for disease to enter. This causes huge transplant shock so bare root seedlings are said to sleep for a year, creep for a year and then leap in year 3. With an air pruning container system, roots are pruned by desiccation or trapping where you don't create a wound and the energy is redirected into other plant growth rather than being lost.
Root pruning containers are no more or less natural than most of the other growing techniques we use. Plants are adapted to survive in a wide variety of conditions. When we in some way limit or control those conditions, we can take advantage of a plants known responses to different conditions.
I think there are cases where you can't beat a root pruning system and cases where they are not a good fit.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Has anyone tried these in zone 4? I ordered some from my state nursery today. They have them rated for zone 4 and suposedly from a NY source. I have not been able to find anywhere else that has them listed as such. I do know where the nursery is and they had -10 or more many times the last two years. Would their stock be grown outside? I would assume all their stuff is outside.

I had posted my AC that I am growing from seed. To hedge my bet I purchased 10 AC bareroot from the Wildlife Group in Alabama.
I was pleased with their seedlings. I sank my holes yesterday and I planted all 10 after lunch today.
I protected all 10. We will see how they do. Location is in a good bottom field with good sunlight.

AC likes well drained soil.
http://plants.usda.gov/factsheet/pdf/fs_capu9.pdf

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Keep in mind that different tree species have different lengths of tap root naturally. In general, in nature, it is hard to stop a taproot. If the tap root is blocked it will normally look for another path. That is why trees grown in smooth sided containers end up with j-hooking or circling roots that will eventually retard the tree.
Much of what we do is bending nature. Think about buying a bare root tree. The tree is grown in a bed and then is dug up and the roots and top are pruned by hand. All the energy that was spent growing the roots that were pruned off is lost. The cutting creates open wounds for disease to enter. This causes huge transplant shock so bare root seedlings are said to sleep for a year, creep for a year and then leap in year 3. With an air pruning container system, roots are pruned by desiccation or trapping where you don't create a wound and the energy is redirected into other plant growth rather than being lost.
Root pruning containers are no more or less natural than most of the other growing techniques we use. Plants are adapted to survive in a wide variety of conditions. When we in some way limit or control those conditions, we can take advantage of a plants known responses to different conditions.
I think there are cases where you can't beat a root pruning system and cases where they are not a good fit.
Thanks,
Jack
==================================
Yes, all chestnuts and chinkapins should be allowed to grow a taproot. Chestnut seedlings should have a root like a carrot. It'll be interesting to see how root pruned trees do by comparison. I know that during drought I want to dig deep holes and plant seedlings with long roots.

I have very little experience compared to most of you but I have grown and planted 100 or so trees grown in rootmaker 18s the last couple years. Last spring I dug up a few that were not growing as much as I liked or where I didnt like their location. When I dug them up many had extensive taproots on them after being in the ground for only one growing season. I think even though we root prune them in the pots, they go back to normal taproots often as someone else mentioned in this thread once they are in the ground. They simply have earlier lateral roots then they would if they were direct seeded.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by Chummer
Has anyone tried these in zone 4? I ordered some from my state nursery today. They have them rated for zone 4 and suposedly from a NY source. I have not been able to find anywhere else that has them listed as such. I do know where the nursery is and they had -10 or more many times the last two years. Would their stock be grown outside? I would assume all their stuff is outside.
==================================
C,
I am growing these in a 5a (and some years its a 4b. we see minus teens every other year or so and saw -23 last year).
I would agree, I have never seen them rated for zone 4 either. I would also assume all of their stuff is outside. Would you consider sharing your NY nursery source?
I have been working with these since 2002. They are growing near the PA/NY border at 1600-2000ft. elevation. I do get some winter dieback on certain plants. Other plants have zero dieback. Some thrive where planted, others kind of stall out and don't do well.
I have noticed that they seem to prefer to flower earlier than other <i>Castanea</i>. Some years this is ok. But last year I had a warm spring and they were all flowered before memorial day. Then on 5/23 we went down to 25 degrees and all flowers froze, zero nuts at all last year.
About 80% of mine develop into small bushes and 20% develop into small trees. Some bushes that suffer winter dieback will sucker strongly. They prefer a well drained, sandy, acidic, shaded soil with hot summer air temperatures. They are very susceptible to root rot in my planting...I suspect part of that is because I have a cool, wet climate. They do not compete well and you may need to monitor grasses/invasives. They seem to be only moderate self pollinators. Plant in groups or consider the wind direction in your area. You may have similar challenges while growing these in a 4b.
On the plus side they produce a heavy crop in just a couple years. I had flowers on 2nd leaf plants. Usually by 4-5 years they are heavy producers. Relished by gamebirds and whitetail.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by NorthPotterCoPA
C,
I am growing these in a 5a (and some years its a 4b. we see minus teens every other year or so and saw -23 last year).
I would agree, I have never seen them rated for zone 4 either. I would also assume all of their stuff is outside. Would you consider sharing your NY nursery source?
I have been working with these since 2002. They are growing near the PA/NY border at 1600-2000ft. elevation. I do get some winter dieback on certain plants. Other plants have zero dieback. Some thrive where planted, others kind of stall out and don't do well.
I have noticed that they seem to prefer to flower earlier than other <i>Castanea</i>. Some years this is ok. But last year I had a warm spring and they were all flowered before memorial day. Then on 5/23 we went down to 25 degrees and all flowers froze, zero nuts at all last year.
About 80% of mine develop into small bushes and 20% develop into small trees. Some bushes that suffer winter dieback will sucker strongly. They prefer a well drained, sandy, acidic, shaded soil with hot summer air temperatures. They are very susceptible to root rot in my planting...I suspect part of that is because I have a cool, wet climate. They do not compete well and you may need to monitor grasses/invasives. They seem to be only moderate self pollinators. Plant in groups or consider the wind direction in your area. You may have similar challenges while growing these in a 4b.
On the plus side they produce a heavy crop in just a couple years. I had flowers on 2nd leaf plants. Usually by 4-5 years they are heavy producers. Relished by gamebirds and whitetail.
==================================
Awesome info. I am getting them from the NY DEC site. They have their own nursery. Not sure if they sell to out of state but you have to pick them up at a drop off site. Maybe they have one close to the PA border.

 

[yoderjac]

END OF TRANSFER FROM QDMA FORUM

 

[yoderjac]

This fall I collected a bunch of Alleghany Chinquapins. I sent some to folks who asked for them and put the rest in the fridge well hydrated but with no added moisture. The idea was to delay germination. Today I decided to plant them in 18s. Most looked like they were ready to produce a root radicle but none had so far. I ended up with 26 nuts planted in 18s.

Thanks,

jack

 

[yoderjac]

Well, the ACs are starting to pop up their heads. I counted 5 with minimal top growth beginning today.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[ToddG]

I planted 10 of these this past spring and was riding around my trails and found 3 already here about 10ft tall each. I got to eat my first Chinquapin nut this fall and they were great. Only 4 of the ones I planted survived.
The one I planted on the old logging deck is growing the best. Who could figure.

 

[yoderjac]

I planted 10 of these this past spring and was riding around my trails and found 3 already here about 10ft tall each. I got to eat my first Chinquapin nut this fall and they were great. Only 4 of the ones I planted survived.
The one I planted on the old logging deck is growing the best. Who could figure.

That is interesting but makes sense. They are an understory tree. I find them on my farm along logging roads. I think those kinds of locations are a good balance for them. I don't think they produce as many nuts in the full understory, but don't do as well in full sun. Along a logging road, they seem to get enough sun to produce nuts. The ACs I'm planting I'm looking for spots that get good morning sun but are protected from the hot afternoon direct sun.

By the way, my AC with top growth count is now up to 10!

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I checked them today. I've got 13 with signs of top growth. That is 50% germination so far but I'm confident this number will go up in the next few days.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Shedder]

I got 70 AC, C pumila, from Maine. They were shipped to MI without moss, held in a fridge, picked up, held again and spend 14 days in the mail before I got them. I wanted to direct seed them Nov Dec but got snowed out. I put them in moss. I didn't notice any sprouting.

Will I have issues with them? Anything I need to do soon?

I want to direct seed them in the spring, or earlier.

 

[yoderjac]

Maine...interesting..The native range is southeast to mid-Atlantic. Here is what I know. Unlike chestnuts, they don't require cold stratification. They will begin producing a root radicle if planted immediately after picking them. I believe in nature they produce the root radicle in the fall but do not produce any top growth. The root radicle grows slowly over the winter. This is similar to DCO. I have not direct seeded any AC yet. They grow native on my farm. The first year I played with them I didn't know much about them and just planted them immediately in 18s. They sprouted immediately and grew well, but I didn't think they would continue to grow through the summer without rest since I started them so early. I tried to force them into dormancy but that didn't work. I killed most of them. The few I did not try to force into dormancy stalled in the summer. I planted them in the fall but they did not thrive.

Last year I wanted to delay them. I vernalized them like DCOs. I planted them in 18s and let a root radicle begin. I water them then put the entire tray in a XXL ziplock bag to hold in moisture, and put them in my fridge. When I was ready for them to start, I took them out of the fridge and put them under lights. I had reasonable germination this way and very nice trees by fall when I planted them from 3 gal RB2s.

This year I tried an easier method to see how it would work. I took fresh nuts that I picked, soaked them to make sure they were well hydrated. I then put them in a ziplock bag with no damp medium. Nuts that require cold stratification need both cold and moisture. With out added moisture from damp medium cold stratification slows and stops if the moisture content of the nut gets too low and they sort of go into suspended animation. Since AC don't need cold stratification, I just tried to suspend them until I was ready to plant them. On Nov 25th, I took them from the fridge. None had root radicles growing but some looked like the were on the edge. As of yesterday, I had 15 out of 26 with top growth. I presume I'll see most of the rest in the next week or so.

If I were you, I would hydrated them well and the pat them dry and put them in a ziplock bag with no medium and put them in the crisper until you are ready to direct seed. I'd direct seed them at your first opportunity. They my be a little behind ACs direct seeded in the fall but they should do fine.

Good Luck,

Jack

 

[Shedder]

They were planted from Ohio stock 17 years ago, so the owner said. Since they are proven in an area near identical to this one I wanted to try them.


I have had a !ot of conflicting info on them.

I am at 45 North. Do you think I can plant anytime? I tried direct planting acorns, last Feb. Some took some did not.

I was told planting chestnuts after Nov was a wrong move.

 

[yoderjac]

Shedder,

If it were me I'd do a couple different things. I'd soak them over night. Dry them off. Then I'd put the back in the fridge. If you have a cool area in your house you could get a plastic tub. Put some potting soil in it. Put some of your nuts in it cover and wait. If it's cool enough they'll put some root growth like they do in nature. If it's too warm they may top sprout. If they do I'd hold them till last frost has passed. Then plant in the field in their final location. I've done that with white oaks. 100% success on them germinating.

The other ones I'd try what Jack said. You may have mold or drying out problems like he has had in the past. You'll lose some this way but, it may allow you to plant them easier in the spring as you'll be planting a nut instead of a seedling.

I've never had mold issue with AC. That is most likely because they grow locally and I can collect the nuts myself while they are still on the tree so there is no mold spore exposure.

Shredder,

You are too far north for me to give you advice on direct seeding them. Once you get well out of the native range, I'm not sure how they will respond.

Best of luck,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack

How do you sterilize your refrigerator and other tools to eliminate mold spores?

Just bleach when I clean it. There are mold spores pretty much everywhere, but I don't think I've ever had an infection from mold spores at my place. I presume that it is certain types of mold that infect chestnuts. I say this after a number of years of dealing with chestnuts. I used to believe it was how I was handling the nuts when I received them. I've now had several cases where I've received nuts from two different sources, handled them identically when I received them, had horrible mold issues with the nuts from one source and almost no issues with mold on nuts from the second source. I think when nuts fall from the tree and sit on the ground for a couple days they have a much higher chance of mold infection.

I've now collected several years of AC and at least one year of chestnuts directly from the trees myself and have never had a mold issue with those nuts. They are not in the same bags as other nuts from sources that have had mold issues but they are in the same fridge.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Yeah I'm not sure Jack. I've never bleached my nuts either. I soak them. Wipe them dry and put them in potting soil in zip locs. Nothing fancy. I keep it simple. One grow light about 24" above them. No timers. No fans. They seem to grow well for me.
No mold problems for me and high germination rates on all except dwarf chinkapin oaks. I had poor germination and growing rates on them and stopped trying to grow them.

I had a very negative experience bleaching nuts and no longer do it. One year, I tried to use the IndianSam method of storing chestnuts without added moisture and then tried to force them to germinate with warmth and moisture. At the time I did not realize that the low hydration rates could actually stop stratification. I ended up with major mold issues. At any rate, I tried washing individual nuts with visible mold to salvage them using a 10% bleach solution. What happened was that the bleach solution reacted with the chestnut shell. There was some kind of an acid/base reaction. I did not realize it was happening. I continued to wash nuts and my fingers started it itch and then burn. The solution ended up burning all the hair off my knuckles and I had to go rinse my hands thoroughly. Many of the nuts that germinated produced deformed trees that year.

As for DCO, my germination rates were OK but not great. I used a variation of the Blitz method after reading his thread. I planted them in 18s and 32s, put the entire try in a XXL ziplock bag and put it in the fridge to vernalize. I then put them under lights. They worked out pretty well. The trees varied from about 1 foot to 2 1/2 feet in the first growing season which I understand is pretty good for DCO. Blitz starts the outdoors after vernalizing them and says to expect about 9" trees after the first growing season. I'm going to see how this first batch of trees does at the farm before trying to start more.

Thanks,

jack