Indoor Greenhouse Approaches - Transferred from QDMA forum

[yoderjac]

What's the thoughts on RM18 trays per light and visa versa. Looks like you have 2 "work" lights (4 total tubes) i across the tray (3 cell direction)....would running one "work" light (2 tubes) down the center of the tray be too little light?

What you are looking at above is actually 3 lights (6 tubes) with room for 4 trays. Right now the third (rear) light is lifted (but running) and I have a humidifier under it because I don't need the 3rd and 4th trays right now.
My table top indoor greenhouses are 30"x 6' and 38"x6' My open areas with lights over floor trays are 6' x 4'. With my table top units 4' x 30" or 38" are for plants. The small unit holds 4 Express trays. The larger unit holds 6 of them. The other 2 feet hold equipment (humidifier, fan, heater, etc.). The small unit has 3 florescent lights and the large unit holds 4 of them.
So the smaller unit delivers about 150 lumens per plant at the light and the larger unit about 133 lumens per plant. Light has not been a limiting factor at these levels.
I found this level of light adequate for growing seedlings for a couple months prior to taking them outside. I don't know if you could get away with less light with no ill effects. I do know some guys are looking at significantly more light: http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67633
I'm not sure if the added light will improve their results over mine or not.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

fascinating so far. really good info, but i have a couple of questions.
what benefit does mylar have over aluminum foil? you can get 25 square feet of aluminum foil at the Dollar store for $1. Stretch it tight over 1/2" thick styro-foam to keep it flat and mirror like reflective. make a few panels, says 12" wide and 4 ft long and hang them along the sides of your enclosure. it would be moisture tolerant, reflective, and have a minor insulatory benefit. take 3 panels on each side, forming a "C" along both sides and you would have your plants/light/panels in a reflective circle.
what about adding wind? the purpose of starting things early and the fancy root pots are to create a strong healthy root system. wind (slight in the case of tiny seedlings) would wiggle the tree enough to promote more roots. a landscaper once scoffed at the idea of staking a tree, he said something about how wind was a free source of root creation; a staked tree doesnt have to create roots to hold it upright. at this tiny age, would this help? would the wind promote excessive lateral rooting?

Aluminum foil has is about 40% reflective and Mylar is 98% reflective so Mylar is about twice as effective.
If you look at my approaches, they all leave about 2 feet on one side for equipment. I typically use a small oil filled electric heater, a small aspirating room sized humidifier, and an oscillating fan. Wind is important, but you need to be careful with it. I run mine for about 15 minutes a couple times a day. It is important to put stress on the stem however it can quickly dry out plants. Even at the rate mine runs, I always get a couple plants close to the fan that dry out through transpiration. In general the benefits outweigh the downside. The early you start plants indoors, the lankier that can get under artificial light making fans even more important. I'm not sure if wind will contribute significantly to root development in a root pruning environment, but it clearly important for good stem development.
I ended up using 1/8th inch foam core from Hobby Lobby (about $6). I simply stapled the Mylar to it. I then punched a couple holes in it and put in cable ties. I can simply flip the panel on top of the unit when watering and working on plants and flip it back down when done. Here is a pic:

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I just transplanted some swamp chestnuts that I had in my 1020 plug trays. Below is the root growth. I was impressed with the root development.

how to print screen on pc
The trays I used are below:
SureRoots 50 Deep Cell Plug Trays

How do you like those sureroots? I've been thinking about giving them a go for starting some plugs of wildflowers and cuttings. I'm planning on moving away from the oaks in the next few years and focusing on woody browse. The RM18's will work, but as far as #'s are concerned the sureroots would be more economical for large quantities, although I already have 4 RM18's.

This is the first time trying them. So far so good. They are really good quality for $3.50.

 

[yoderjac]

It is a little hard to tell from the pic. As long as there is no circling or J-hooking you shouldn't have any long-term issues. While I don't remove mix when transplanting, if you are trying to illustrate root development, it is bet to wash off the mix for comparison. If I were you, I'd start trees of the same species in both at the same time, then in 12-16 weeks, I'd put one of each that looked good with top growth and wash the mix off both for comparison.
Just looking at the pots, here is what I would expect. If the trees are transplanted early enough, you may not see any J-hooking or circling at the bottom. I like the sharp taper which forces roots downward. I couldn't see the bottom of the containers in the picture, but I presume they are not air pruning. So, you probably won't get much in the way of secondary or tertiary branching like you do with the RM cells.
How long before J-hooking or circling at the bottom probably depends somewhat on the type of tree.
It would be really cool to see pictures of both with the mix washed away if someone has both kinds of propagation pots.
If you could figure out how long before the tap root hits the bottom, one interesting use might be a form of early direct seeding. One could back off from the amount of time before tap root hits the bottom and start them indoors at that point and then plant them as soon as the weather breaks. Since the tap root isn't pruned, they wouldn't need the same level of supplemental water that root pruned trees need....just thinking....
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

That's a very interesting idea. Although I won't be doing tons of hardwoods in the future, it would be interesting to see the difference between a root pruned tree and that type of direct seeding.

I am still battling between whether I want my trees root pruned or not. I have sandy soil, but the top 10 inches is alright. It can get droughty, so a longer taproot would be nice, but I think that the majority of nutrients are in the top foot. I'm thinking that I can use the RM system with my DIY 2-3 gallons, and in a year or two plant with just a 4x4 square of landscaping fabric. I also think that eventually there will be multiple taproots that are a bit shallower.

As far as the comparison goes, I may be getting some of the ray leach conetainers or the Deepots. At 3.50 +S&H, I think I'd be able to get a flat of sureroots too. I might not be doing hardwoods, but wildflowers have some pretty nasty taproots, so those may be a good, although different, test.

 

[yoderjac]

I think the decision as to whether to use root pruned trees or not largely depends on whether you can provide the supplemental water to get them established. The purpose of that tap root is to get a couple feet deep when the tree is young in case of drought. Once a tree is well established, I think it would need to be an unusual situation for a drought to kill a root pruned tree that didn't kill a direct seeded tree.
I think the risk period is while the tree is being established. Keep in mind that a tree with lots of terminal roots can uptake both water and nutrients much more efficiently. So, with a well established root pruned tree, the top several feet of soil would need to really be dry and for a long time.
The problem with using root pruned trees in a wildlife setting is that it isn't always practical to provide supplemental water during establishment. If you are just planting a few trees in strategic locations and you get to your property every couple weeks in the summer, I think root pruned trees are a slam dunk. However, when planting trees in high volume or if the property is out of reach during the summer, they can become problematic. I think they will work in some areas of the country but not in others.
Over time, I'm learning that with my climate, I have fairly high loses when planting directly from cells without supplemental water, but pretty good success when I start trees early (December 1st) and plant them from 1 gal containers in the spring. I'm expecting near 100% success when planting trees when dormant after one or two growing seasons in containers.
I have good spring and fall rains with some hot dry periods in the summer. My problem is that I have heavy clay. Since water infiltrates through mix much faster than clay two issues can occur. First, during periods of ample rain, the mix in the clay can act as a pond and drown the root ball. However, during dry periods, the mix dries out quickly and all the moisture is retained in the native clay soils.
After studying this issue, I plan to change my planting technique to hopefully maximize success. I plan to use an auger and drill holes close to the container size in diameter but much deeper than the container. I then plan to amend the soil at the bottom of the hole. I'll use a hand rake to scratch the sides of the hole to mitigate any glazing effects from the auger.
The concept is this. In the spring, when I have ample rain, the water that infiltrates the mix will pond in the amended soil in the bottom of the hole but be below the root ball. Since the diameter of the hole is close to the container size, the roots on the side should not have far to go to get into the native clay. So, during the summer when the dry period comes, the tree will have lateral roots into the clay for water access. Well, that's the theory anyway. With sandy soil you may need a different technique.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

As far as weather, I'm the same. Wet springs and with fairly wet falls. Summer can get droughty, but it's usually not too bad. I think I'm going to be going with early fall planting (mid September) to allow those roots to get a bit of growth prior to the colder weather and dormancy.

September may work in your area, but it is probably the worst time to plant here. Trees are still in full leaf in September in my area. I've done it. With seedlings in 1 gal RM, most see to survive, but small seedlings planted from cells have a very poor survival rate for me at that time. Around here, it is November before trees go dormant. That would be the best time for a fall plant in my area.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I've got a few small red oak seedlings that have come up naturally. I'll make sure that I keep an eye on them this spring and fall and note their first and last signs of growth. The trouble here is that often times the ground is frozen in November, and I've seen a few times in late October.
If I store them outside next winter and mulch them in, I may be able to get them in while still dormant/very early growth in April when I go out turkey hunting. Actually, it'd be great if I could get them in on a rainy day in the high 40's in early March. It's a small widow between once ground thaws that'll still give the trees about a month to get established before ANY chance of major drought and heat. They'll be in ~2-3 gallon equivalents, so they'll have a pretty good sized root mass.

Yes, I think the larger root pruned trees have a much better shot. What would be optimal for me would be to catch them when they first go dormant but before we get freezing temps. We generally don't have super cold winters, so planting them in before winter is not an issue. This would save me having to mulch them in. The only problem is that November when it would be the best time for me, it the middle of our rut and I'm spending all my time hunting not planting.
Thanks,
jack

 

[yoderjac]

Same here. The last week of October and the first 2 of November are the best bowhunting all year.

 

[yoderjac]

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[yoderjac]

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