What is/are the foundation(s) of your political beliefs?

Government "by & for the people"??? Laws don't exist solely for their own benefit.
I'll start with responding to this post before your previous one. But first, I would like to thank you for getting involved in this discussion. To me, your viewpoint seems more at odds with mine than most on this forum and I'm glad that we can have civil discourse. Please do not take anything I say as a direct personal attack, or at least politely point it out if you believe it to be the case.

I'm not ignoring the people entirely. My main consideration is the people, and their rights (again , this is only relating to negative rights) on an individual level. I ignore the actions of individuals in government when considering the philosophy of the basis of government, or what is just. That is to say, anyone may at some time do something that is counter to the underlying philosophy of the proper role of government. I will freely admit when they do so, but it does not defeat the underlying argument of what is in line with the limited, just role of government. It simply shows that people are imperfect.
 
I believe that governments establish rules and laws for the general betterment and protection of all citizens. If I have the "right" to dump my dirty motor oil on my land (because its MY land) - but it leaches into the ground and pollutes your well .... is that your tough sh**? Same goes for me burning my trash on my land - and the stink blows over to you and you have to smell it & put up with it. Why should you have to endure my careless behaviors? As a young kid - our neighbor next door burned garbage at night and the stink was enough to gag a maggot in the summer with the windows open. No air pollution laws needed?? What rights do all those neighbors have that had to breath in that stench from smoldering, smoking garbage???

I once worked for a big company that had a literal 4" dia. hole in the ground in the corner of one of its parking lots. Management of that factory told the maintenance dept. to dump all old solvents, oils, thinners, and paints down that hole. That place cost the taxpayers via the federal "superfund" millions of dollars because it polluted the wells of part of the city used for drinking - and it took years to mitigate that pollution!!! How many people drank that toxic water for years - not knowing?? No need for laws & regulations?? Too much EPA "burden" on businesses?? What about the citizens' rights to have safe drinking water???

Smoking in indoor places ..... no "right" for non-smokers to breath clean air?

Let's establish that human selfishness and greed are at play when any laws are proposed. Let's not kid ourselves. Thus the need for GOD's rules as guides, which involve taking others' needs & safety into consideration. Health care comes to mind. (See the parable of the Good Samaritan). How can the rights of the masses be addressed & protected without "infringing on" the rights of the few? Actions taken by some individuals and businesses may negatively impact many others.
Your first example does not necessitate the existence of the EPA. Clearly, the individual tainting the well water of his neighbor is liable for violating the property rights of his neighbor. In this country we may need some sort of tort reform to allow for redress of grievances with less expense and a more timely resolution, but that does not justify the creation of an agency that can infringe on the rights of the individual.

The burning of garbage example is one where I admit that I don't have a solid stance, but I will explain my current thoughts around it. I see this from two points. One is community, the other is how we deal with the commons (the air in this case). This is assuming we are dealing with private individuals and that the fumes are not overtly harmful.
From a community perspective, we should be able to talk with our neighbors and come to reasonable understandings of how we can coexist within the community while still meeting out individual needs.
As far as how we deal with the commons, I can see a need for some very basic level of regulation. More in line with keeping things orderly than outright banning. In this example I could see a need to impose a restriction on what time of day the neighbor may dispose of his garbage by burning. Again, this assumes that the fumes are not overtly harmful.

The last example of a corporation polluting is probably the easiest in one aspect and maybe a little difficult in another. For the easy part, corporations are not people (yes, the courts currently say that they are, and they are wrong on this point). I can expand on my thoughts on why it is ok for government to regulate corporations further if you'd like. But, the cliff notes version is that corporations are not people and therefore open to government regulations. The only point of contention that I see is how do we fund the agencies that regulate corporations within some reasonable limit as to not overburden the corporations, which I see as the only reasonable source of the funding.

I really think that your post starts to get at the root of our differences in base philosophy. My stance is that individual rights (in the realm of government) are the foundation and all other things follow from there. To me, yours appears to be that the greater good is the foundation and all other things follow from there. These appear to be diametrically opposed, and I believe that is where the conflict truly comes from.
 
Your first example does not necessitate the existence of the EPA. Clearly, the individual tainting the well water of his neighbor is liable for violating the property rights of his neighbor. In this country we may need some sort of tort reform to allow for redress of grievances with less expense and a more timely resolution, but that does not justify the creation of an agency that can infringe on the rights of the individual.

The burning of garbage example is one where I admit that I don't have a solid stance, but I will explain my current thoughts around it. I see this from two points. One is community, the other is how we deal with the commons (the air in this case). This is assuming we are dealing with private individuals and that the fumes are not overtly harmful.
From a community perspective, we should be able to talk with our neighbors and come to reasonable understandings of how we can coexist within the community while still meeting out individual needs.
As far as how we deal with the commons, I can see a need for some very basic level of regulation. More in line with keeping things orderly than outright banning. In this example I could see a need to impose a restriction on what time of day the neighbor may dispose of his garbage by burning. Again, this assumes that the fumes are not overtly harmful.

The last example of a corporation polluting is probably the easiest in one aspect and maybe a little difficult in another. For the easy part, corporations are not people (yes, the courts currently say that they are, and they are wrong on this point). I can expand on my thoughts on why it is ok for government to regulate corporations further if you'd like. But, the cliff notes version is that corporations are not people and therefore open to government regulations. The only point of contention that I see is how do we fund the agencies that regulate corporations within some reasonable limit as to not overburden the corporations, which I see as the only reasonable source of the funding.

I really think that your post starts to get at the root of our differences in base philosophy. My stance is that individual rights (in the realm of government) are the foundation and all other things follow from there. To me, yours appears to be that the greater good is the foundation and all other things follow from there. These appear to be diametrically opposed, and I believe that is where the conflict truly comes from.
I won't get into the minutiae and definitions - that can go on for decades. I look at things from the standpoint of "what's the right thing to do" in a given situation. The things you define as "commons" - I'm supposing clean air & water, safe work places, etc. - I believe are the right of all people. IMO, one could write/legislate enough rules & laws to make a volume about 12 miles thick - when a few common sense laws might cover the bases. To me, it boils down to common courtesy toward one's fellow citizens - I won't burn garbage so my neighbors have to breathe in the stench, I won't pour dirty motor oil or chemicals on my land to possibly poison your well water, I won't expect another person to work in an unsafe situation when I wouldn't do it myself, or allow my wife & sons to do so.

IMO, the existence of the EPA is necessary simply because too many individuals and businesses readily pollute our environment - mostly to save money on safe disposal / treatments. But in the end, that costs all of us more money as taxpayers to clean up the mess. Very seldom to polluters get tagged with the entire cost of cleaning up the messes they've made - taxpayers get stuck with bills for mitigations to messes they had no part in creating. Self-policing is an absolute joke. We need policing agencies simply because too many entities and individuals cut corners / ignore rules & laws ...... at the expense of many others "downstream."

Do unto others ........ as you would want done to you. Golden rule kind of thing.

I don't take offense to anything you posted. I dislike angry arguing ...... civil exchange of ideas & thoughts = OK to me.
 
Question for Skeeter and Bows. I think we agree that some government agencies are need to enforce rules and regulations, whether they're safety, environmental, financial etc. Who should be responsible for determining and writing those rules and regulations?

If we had a poll here to determine what's safe work practices, which chemicals are harmful to humans, flora and fauna, etc. I'm sure we would have a hard time coming to an agreement that would suit all of us.
 
Do unto others….

Content of character, not color of skin…

1A and 2A

FAFO

These are mine.
 
I "kind of" agree the EPA is needed. Where I have a problem is that the EPA can make laws and levy fines. Congress is the only gov body with the legal ability to pass laws. The EPA is un-elected bureaucrats doing it. IMO the EPA should make recommendations to congress and let them decide whether it should become law. The new CTV transmissions being put in cars is only one prime example of unintended consequences of EPA legislation through rules. EPA forces MPG limits on car manufacturer's, car manufactures are forced to come up with ideas to meet the standards. Not all ideas are good. CTV transmissions are basically not repairable. The cost to repair is close to the cost to replace. Between $5K and $10K. Some of them are going out at less than 50K miles.

These things are not being put in the rich mans big cars and SUV's. They are being put in the poor mans economy car. Just the people who can't afford to be replacing a $5K-$10K transmission on a car with 50 - 70 K miles on it. Who's to blame, the big bad car manufacturer that is robbing the masses, or the EPA that forced the evil company to squeeze out 2 more MPG?
 
The EPA has done lots of good for the country. They were the ones that rushed to tell the East Palestine bombing victims to go home right away, despite the headaches, burning eyes, and dead animals all around the city. They also gave the green light to pile up 85,000 tons of neonic treated corn seed on the ground in Mead, NE and let all that pesticide just soak into the ground and run into the rivers.


Homeland security did a bang up job moving millions of sex offenders and murderers into the country, and scored a half million new children for the human trafficking business. The pentagon and CIA have done wonders for the cause of peace in the middle east. The FBI has done an awesome job watching chemically destroyed trans teens shoot up schools only to tell us they knew it was coming. They are also very adept at ensuring they never discover the crimes of their masters. The big city district attorneys make sure no criminals get punished.

The state department helped set up ethnic cleansing bioweapons development labs in Asia and Africa. The FDA has done a bangup job ensuring covid jabs 1-27 never get tested before they're pumped into blindly trusting TV watching westerners. They also made sure all the chemicals banned in the EU can be used in American food. The fed has done a bangup job ensuring the war machine never runs out of money and americans can no longer afford the basics of life like food, transportation, housing, and health care.

I know people wish they didn't have to think and could just trust government, but history shows that's not gonna work out in their favor.
 
My beliefs are founded in The Constitution. I think it was
One of the most brilliant documents ever written. It protects the individual’s
Rights above all.
The problem is the government we have today is so far from following The Constitution that is is almost not recognizable.
More power needs to be returned to the states where citizens have a better chance of holding government accountable. Right now we have nothing but thieves and scumbags sucking the life out of our country. It’s going to be hard to change and get back to limited government run by citizens not professional politicians.
 

What is/are the foundation(s) of your political beliefs?​


It's pretty simple for me. Common sense, right vs wrong, lesser of two evils. At 18 I walked up to vote for the first time. I was confused when they asked me if I wanted a Democratic or Republican ballot. I told them that's BS and I'm not declaring for either. Turned around and haven't voted in a primary yet. Many elections have come and gone since then and strangely enough following what I wrote in my first sentence has led me to vote for the same party in every presidential election.
 
The EPA has done lots of good for the country. They were the ones that rushed to tell the East Palestine bombing victims to go home right away, despite the headaches, burning eyes, and dead animals all around the city. They also gave the green light to pile up 85,000 tons of neonic treated corn seed on the ground in Mead, NE and let all that pesticide just soak into the ground and run into the rivers.


Homeland security did a bang up job moving millions of sex offenders and murderers into the country, and scored a half million new children for the human trafficking business. The pentagon and CIA have done wonders for the cause of peace in the middle east. The FBI has done an awesome job watching chemically destroyed trans teens shoot up schools only to tell us they knew it was coming. They are also very adept at ensuring they never discover the crimes of their masters. The big city district attorneys make sure no criminals get punished.

The state department helped set up ethnic cleansing bioweapons development labs in Asia and Africa. The FDA has done a bangup job ensuring covid jabs 1-27 never get tested before they're pumped into blindly trusting TV watching westerners. They also made sure all the chemicals banned in the EU can be used in American food. The fed has done a bangup job ensuring the war machine never runs out of money and americans can no longer afford the basics of life like food, transportation, housing, and health care.

I know people wish they didn't have to think and could just trust government, but history shows that's not gonna work out in their favor.
I went with one example. In my experience when we give the world to many examples they crawl back under the same rock. 😆
 
I went with one example. In my experience when we give the world to many examples they crawl back under the same rock. 😆
I could do this all day, but if the first dozen examples don't do it, another couple dozen won't help either.
 
I could do this all day, but if the first dozen examples don't do it, another couple dozen won't help either.
Exactly
 
You guys are making me scratch my head.
Would we be better off eliminating all the agencies and regulations?
 
You guys are making me scratch my head.
Would we be better off eliminating all the agencies and regulations?
Nope. The agencies are fine. We need to take their teeth away and make it so they can only offer recommendations to those in congress that were elected to make laws. (And can be unelected) if their laws overstep what the republic wants.
 
Regulations have become an extortion racket. Agencies that can create rules/regulations into "law" without congressional approval can extort companies compliance.

Agencies like the EPA approach a company and inform them they are in violation of a regulation. The regulation is often written in vague language which allows for the EPA to apply as they want. Companies have very little recourse and are forced into compliance to avoid future violation or more investigations.
 
Question for Skeeter and Bows. I think we agree that some government agencies are need to enforce rules and regulations, whether they're safety, environmental, financial etc. Who should be responsible for determining and writing those rules and regulations?

If we had a poll here to determine what's safe work practices, which chemicals are harmful to humans, flora and fauna, etc. I'm sure we would have a hard time coming to an agreement that would suit all of us.
You're probably right on that pool thought. A current problem is that actual facts and data don't seem to matter to many folks anymore. (the infamous "alternate facts" claim. Ridiculous. A fact is a fact - it stands alone. Claims that black is white and white is black are insane.) Shouted, angry opinions take center stage these days, regardless of proven scientific data & facts.

As to who should be responsible for determining & writing those rules & regs ..... hugely paid lobbyists should NOT be involved. We'd get better rules if everyday folks made them (the most directly affected) - not big-money players with gabillions of dollars behind them. Everyday folks make up the majority of the country's population - not the .01% to 1 %. << This group custom-writes laws for their own benefit via huge donations and highly-paid lobbyists. Most of us are nothing more than the gum sticking to the bottom of their shoes.

Ever see a toxic waste dump, landfill, super-fund site, highway, poison drinking water in a politician's or lobbyists back yard?? Just an observation. What do we make of the Palestine, Ohio folks who had the train derailment in their town that spilled cars full of toxic chemicals into their soil & waters, not to mention the air there? Cries of "Why didn't the government prevent things like this / inspect train car brakes, / help with this clean-up?" ------- Well, brake inspections were ignored /overridden because they take money & time. So do we need some government agencies with teeth to police such things that private industry won't do because it affects their bottom lines??? (Think .... prevent the accident before it happens) ....... when all the boo-hooing starts. I ask myself ..... "What has become of common-sense practices?" Isn't it cheaper to prevent accidents, toxic spills / pollution, financial fraud - than to pay much more for the fixes and clean-ups??? How many here ignore vehicle maintenance until your vehicle breaks down / dies?? Cheaper / smarter to change fluids, belts, filters ......... or end up with major bills / new vehicle?? Watch your 401-k's and other investments closely once the "gutting" of the SEC & eliminating some financial safety rules happen with "wonderful de-regulation." Hey ........... it's only our life savings at risk .......... relaaaaaaaxx.

Sometimes government has our backs - and isn't on them. Watch who's taking away the needed safety nets for all of us working Americans. "There's no Democrats & Republicans - just the haves and have-nots." Seems like an accurate statement anymore.
 
I won't get into the minutiae and definitions - that can go on for decades. I look at things from the standpoint of "what's the right thing to do" in a given situation. The things you define as "commons" - I'm supposing clean air & water, safe work places, etc. - I believe are the right of all people. IMO, one could write/legislate enough rules & laws to make a volume about 12 miles thick - when a few common sense laws might cover the bases. To me, it boils down to common courtesy toward one's fellow citizens - I won't burn garbage so my neighbors have to breathe in the stench, I won't pour dirty motor oil or chemicals on my land to possibly poison your well water, I won't expect another person to work in an unsafe situation when I wouldn't do it myself, or allow my wife & sons to do so.

IMO, the existence of the EPA is necessary simply because too many individuals and businesses readily pollute our environment - mostly to save money on safe disposal / treatments. But in the end, that costs all of us more money as taxpayers to clean up the mess. Very seldom to polluters get tagged with the entire cost of cleaning up the messes they've made - taxpayers get stuck with bills for mitigations to messes they had no part in creating. Self-policing is an absolute joke. We need policing agencies simply because too many entities and individuals cut corners / ignore rules & laws ...... at the expense of many others "downstream."

Do unto others ........ as you would want done to you. Golden rule kind of thing.

I don't take offense to anything you posted. I dislike angry arguing ...... civil exchange of ideas & thoughts = OK to me.
The commons are natural resources that by their nature cannot be owned or controlled by any one individual. Air is a part of the commons, be it clean or dirty. The idea of a safe work spaces would definitely not be considered part of the commons. Other things that would are rivers, aquifers, other bodies of water not completely surrounded by a single piece of private land, wild animals and public land. Although, as stated previously, I struggle with that last one.

I'm still finding it difficult to pin down the true foundation of your political philosophy. You didn't explicitly agree with my greater good proposal. Instead you offered up vague and very subjective phrases like common sense and what is the right thing to do. These can vary greatly in interpretation from one person to another. For example, my boss recently got after me for not applying a different set of standards to some customer owned material than what we apply to company owned material, even though there has never been any kind of policy stating that we ought to. It also has not been a past practice at my level of operations. That didn't stop him from saying that I just need to use a little common sense, though he never described what he meant by common sense. When I asked him how do I determine if it's customer owned material with the resources at my disposal, he answered "I don't know, that's a good question." Still haven't gotten an answer. So can you see why the assertion of common sense is not informative enough to ever be a real answer? Similarly, the right thing to do is going to be very subjective in many cases and does not get us any closer to truth or a working philosophy.

I see the golden rule as more of an ethical consideration that I find more applicable in the realm of community or social interactions rather than government / legal interactions. Again, it can be quite vague and very greatly from one individual to another.

I can see a place for an EPA like agency, but limited to dealing with corporations and government, not private citizens. I also agree with Bill and others that it should not be a rule making body.

As far as chemicals that you once possessed ending up tainting another person's property, in this modern world it is an impossibility that this has not happened. With all the plastics that have passed through each of our possession, it is undeniable that at some point, some amount has ended up tainting another's property. On that level, we are all guilty.

The failure of government to hold corporations fully liable for the damages they are responsible for does not seem to necessitate an agency to regulate the individual in any logical sense. I understand that it is individuals that carry out actions, but in a legal sense, if the individual is acting under the corporation, it is the corporation commiting the act, not an individual.

I'm sure that I missed addressing some things, and I look forward to your response.
 
Sometimes government has our backs - and isn't on them. Watch who's taking away the needed safety nets for all of us working Americans. "There's no Democrats & Republicans - just the haves and have-nots." Seems like an accurate statement anymore.

Common theme in most or your posts. The greedy haves screwing over the have nots. Sounds like something from a manifesto. But maybe not.

Rather than writing a dissertation can you point me to the place in the US constitution where it says any body other than congress can write and enforce federal laws?

If California wants to impose MPG standards on cars in their state they can do that, states rights. But some unelected body can’t do it nationally. Unless someone can point me the paragraph in the constitution that says they can. I can’t find it.
 
Foggy 75 in Phoenix is good and the tundra in Minnesota in winter sucks
 
Rather than writing a dissertation can you point me to the place in the US constitution where it says any body other than congress can write and enforce federal laws?
I'll assume you agree then with federal laws relating to election oversight?? Seems like several states thumbed their noses at federal election laws written by Congress.

Concerning laws made by Congress - if we were to have new laws written by Congress concerning environmental protection / clean-up, workplace safety, etc. - can we really expect those new laws wouldn't be heavily influenced by, or possibly even worded by, BIG money players??? Convince me that the avg. American citizen would have a place at the table when formulating those new laws.
 
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