Thoughts on culling bucks with poor genetic potential.

[Oleo]

White-tailed Deer: Are Antler Characteristics Inherited?

tpwd.texas.gov

Read point five from Kerr large scale study.

1. You can improve a herd by selectively removing inferior antlered deer and allowing the deer with good antlers to breed.

I like the thinking of another bullet in this report:

1. You can do little or nothing to improve antler genetics except to leave obviously superior bucks in the herd.

I agree with everyone that we're probably not having a population impact, but I do think some antler characteristics are inherited, and killing the bucks with good antlers means they aren't going to pass down their characteristics. They might not produce a big buck descendant, and if they do, it might go live somewhere else - BUT they sure aren't going to produce a big buck descendant that sticks around if they're dead.

This year, my biggest buck has some kickers on his G2s. I also have what I think is a 3.5 year old with kickers in the same place. Maybe coincidence, but I like to think he's a child of my big one, and I'd like both of those to reproduce. Who am I kidding - I'd like to shoot the big one, but since I haven't got him yet, I'm glad he was around to reproduce.

 

[Angus 1895]

I believe antlers are a heritable trait.

Buck # 3 is a dink.

Cull it would be my deal.

It will breed, it’s get will breed.

I try not to over think these things.

 

[SwampCat]

I like the thinking of another bullet in this report:

1. You can do little or nothing to improve antler genetics except to leave obviously superior bucks in the herd.

If there is a benefit for the best bucks to pass genetic material, then why is there not a benefit to keep the worst bucks from passing genetic material?

 

[Angus 1895]

Visiting with a white tail breeder I got the impression that the maternal genetics had a lot of value in antler mass. So a dinks daughter can also pee pee on the parade

 

[Oleo]

Fair question - I'm far from an expert in this, so just theorizing - Maybe it depends on the carrying capacity of the land. If you have more land than deer, it doesn't hurt to let them all breed. If you're running low on space, maybe what you're suggesting makes sense. But to others points, many of us don't have enough land to account for how widely the deer spread out.

 

[PatinPA]

I like the thinking of another bullet in this report:

1. You can do little or nothing to improve antler genetics except to leave obviously superior bucks in the herd.

I agree with everyone that we're probably not having a population impact, but I do think some antler characteristics are inherited, and killing the bucks with good antlers means they aren't going to pass down their characteristics. They might not produce a big buck descendant, and if they do, it might go live somewhere else - BUT they sure aren't going to produce a big buck descendant that sticks around if they're dead.

This year, my biggest buck has some kickers on his G2s. I also have what I think is a 3.5 year old with kickers in the same place. Maybe coincidence, but I like to think he's a child of my big one, and I'd like both of those to reproduce. Who am I kidding - I'd like to shoot the big one, but since I haven't got him yet, I'm glad he was around to reproduce.

My dad and I years ago killed buck in back to back years that had identical stickers coming off the back of the same antler. I always wondered if that was genetics. On my property I see a lot of similar shaped antlers. Where we hunt in WV we see a lot of buck with no brow tines at all. Not sure if that's genetics or nutrition though. They are mountain buck down there.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I like the thinking of another bullet in this report:

1. You can do little or nothing to improve antler genetics except to leave obviously superior bucks in the herd.

I agree with everyone that we're probably not having a population impact, but I do think some antler characteristics are inherited, and killing the bucks with good antlers means they aren't going to pass down their characteristics. They might not produce a big buck descendant, and if they do, it might go live somewhere else - BUT they sure aren't going to produce a big buck descendant that sticks around if they're dead.

This year, my biggest buck has some kickers on his G2s. I also have what I think is a 3.5 year old with kickers in the same place. Maybe coincidence, but I like to think he's a child of my big one, and I'd like both of those to reproduce. Who am I kidding - I'd like to shoot the big one, but since I haven't got him yet, I'm glad he was around to reproduce.

This is exactly why you need to manage for a 5 year old "sooter". In those 5 years those bucks will be passing on their genetics even if their rack has not "proven itself" yet. When it gets shot at 5 you can be comfortable in thinking that buck spread his genes enough by that time to HELP make a difference. That is why I don't believe in "high grading"

 

[Turkish]

I listened to a podcast with Bronson Strickland a few months ago and he stated their science shows you need two full generations of deer to positively or negatively effect their genetics. I believe he said that would take about 7 years to come to fruition. Something to keep in mind when considering these topics.

He was referring to epigenetics. Not what most of this thread is about.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Since concentrating on winter food a number of years ago, our average rack size has steadily increased. We pay no attention to "inferior" racked bucks. In the end you can't "cull" a buck unless you have an opportunity to. You can talk about it until your blue in the face but unless you kill him there isn't much to talk about IMO.

 

[Hoytvectrix]

This is exactly why you need to manage for a 5 year old "sooter". In those 5 years those bucks will be passing on their genetics even if their rack has not "proven itself" yet. When it gets shot at 5 you can be comfortable in thinking that buck spread his genes enough by that time to HELP make a difference. That is why I don't believe in "high grading"

I think the MSU Deer Lab has talked about this a few times. I believe there are actually published reports documenting the high grading effect within areas using antler point restrictions. They have moved away from recommending agencies using only antler point restrictions.

Here is a summary of their research:

Using Antler Restrictions to Manage for Older-aged Bucks | Mississippi State University Extension Service

Interest in managing white-tailed deer has never been greater! A common goal of many deer hunters is maximizing antler development of the bucks they manage and hunt. Habitat management, food plots, adequate doe harvests, and increasing buck age structure are commonly prescribed in deer...

extension.msstate.edu

 

[Angus 1895]

I agree with the Texas study posted.

There is very little chance deer #3 will ever surpass deer # 1 &2 unless you shoot # 1 & 2 now. Leave # 3 for 3 more years. IMO

1. Antler development is genetically based. Not all deer have the same genetic potential.
2. Nutrition does affect antler growth.
3. Early or late birth does not affect antler development if deer receive adequate nutrition.
4. The majority of yearling spike bucks will produce smaller and fewer points in following years than will fork-antlered yearlings.
5. You can improve a herd by selectively removing inferior antlered deer and allowing the deer with good antlers to breed.
6. Does provide half of the genetic potential for antler development.
7. Average yearling bucks on good range should have six points.
8. Even when most bucks are spikes, removing them will not endanger the breeding potential.
9. Antler development improves with age up to a point.
10. The best time to manage for genetic improvement is during periods of nutritional stress.

 

[jsasker007]

Don't know if it was mentioned here or not but why doesn't anyone ever put any value of the doe when it comes to growing trophy bucks. The doe is one half of the equation for passing on genes. All the focus is on the buck. jmo

 

[Angus 1895]

Don't know if it was mentioned here or not but why doesn't anyone ever put any value of the doe when it comes to growing trophy bucks. The doe is one half of the equation for passing on genes. All the focus is on the buck. jmo

My white tail breeding buddy dealt in doe genetics. They are very valuable.

 

[omicron1792]

Don't know if it was mentioned here or not but why doesn't anyone ever put any value of the doe when it comes to growing trophy bucks. The doe is one half of the equation for passing on genes. All the focus is on the buck. jmo

It’s been talked about for pages. I think everyone agrees.

My point was in a free range situation it’s next to impossible to know what doe produces great bucks (unless in high fence).

With bucks you do have some evidence based on that deers antlers.

These studies remind me of medical studies. A new drug will give someone dying three extra months of life. But the conclusion will be it’s not statistically significant, so insurance companies won’t pay for it. If it was your wife or child, would you want 3 extra months with them?

My guess is the studies, which are few and far between and hard to do, dont show a big enough change so they say “don’t do it, not worth your time.”

That does not mean it can’t have benefit on a small scale. That’s just now how studies work.

Also, pharma might spend a billion dollars on studies for one drug. Ain’t nobody spending that kind of money to study antler genetics.

 

[Angus 1895]

The thing to ponder:

Females have a geome of xx

Makes xy

What if there is an antler allele on the X chromosome?

 

[Turkish]

It’s been talked about for pages. I think everyone agrees.

My point was in a free range situation it’s next to impossible to know what doe produces great bucks (unless in high fence).

With bucks you do have some evidence based on that deers antlers.

These studies remind me of medical studies. A new drug will give someone dying three extra months of life. But the conclusion will be it’s not statistically significant, so insurance companies won’t pay for it. If it was your wife or child, would you want 3 extra months with them?

My guess is the studies, which are few and far between and hard to do, dont show a big enough change so they say “don’t do it, not worth your time.”

That does not mean it can’t have benefit on a small scale. That’s just now how studies work.

Also, pharma might spend a billion dollars on studies for one drug. Ain’t nobody spending that kind of money to study antler genetics.

Buy, I just think that’s a terrible analogy. Killing an immature buck comes with material risk, when the overwhelming determinant for the large antler objective is AGE.

 

[omicron1792]

Buy, I just think that’s a terrible analogy. Killing an immature buck comes with material risk, when the overwhelming determinant for the large antler objective is AGE.

Sorry it didn’t meet your approval.

We all go to what we know, and I know about that all to well.

 

[Turkish]

Sorry it didn’t meet your approval.

We all go to what we know, and I know about that all to well.

Free range whitetail antler genetics?

And I didn’t intend to be abrasive or offensive. I reread it and it didn’t come across as I meant.

 

[matinc]

This is spindley. He will be 6 1/2 next year. We have let him walk every year. His body has gotten bigger but only 3 inches max wider in 3 years. His dad had the exact same frame and was a bit wider. We keep him to breed. Curious on everyone's thoughts

 

[matinc]

Omi your missing the point here. Kids should only be allowed to shoot does and should be made to learn to shoot doe fawns. Shooting doe fawns is the BEST animal to remove from the herd. I make no bones about it I am totally against the youth hunt period.