The late November lull
- Thread starter Hoytvectrix
- Start date
Bszweda
5 year old buck +
I am hoping the week of 80 degree weather during November will make the second rut fantastic this year. According to my trail camera intel the past two years I usually get some decent activity in the first / second week of December due to the buck to doe ratio in my area.
Wind Gypsy
5 year old buck +
Every state funds wildlife a little different. In the case of MN - The MN DNR has a budget of $1.3 Billion and "Game and Fish" expenditures account for 68% ($884 million) of that. 2021 MN hunting license sales for all species totaled $26 million or 3% of the total Game and Fish portion of the DNR budget. In this case specifically a dip in license sales doesn't move the needle much. [Edit to add: lower license sales does have a compounding impact as lower license sales = lower federal funds from pittman robertson]
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BuckSutherland
5 year old buck +
I fully understand that WI deals with just as many wolves, bears, loss of habitat(s), existential climate threats, etc as MN. I need to do a better job with my sarcasm. WI kill has gone up 5 years in a row by an average of 7.7% according to this article (nearly beating last year by 14.5% in 2022).
https://kstp.com/world/hunters-kill-14-more-deer-during-wisconsin-9-day-gun-season/
WI goes higher 5 years in a row, MN goes lower 5 years in a row. CWD is worse in WI then MN. WI actually took out a couple hundred wolves a few years ago. I'm sure that had nothing to do with the improved numbers in WI. The above article says WI had such a good deer harvest cause of the lack of standing corn, but actually WI had MUCH MORE corn standing this year then the previous few years. Probably 40,000-50,000 more acres of standing corn in WI this year then the previous 2. MN just f*****g sucks, plain and simple.
4wanderingeyes
5 year old buck +
I think some of it is the WIDNR is very liberal with handing out doe permits, in my county alone they give out 12,000+ each year. You can get a buck tag for gun, bow, crossbow, muzzle loader, early December gun hunt for more does, and a holiday hunt incase there is a deer or 2 left out there somewhere that wasnt shot, if you have a kid, or want to buy a tag for some strange kid, you can also get a youth license. Doesnt matter age, 1yo, 15yo, doesnt matter, they all have very successful hunts each year, no matter the age.
You can pretty much buy as many doe permits you want, before season, or during, shoot 10 does, want more tags, just buy more. It use to be $2 per doe tag, they went up to $12 now. Deer registration is all done online now, so if you happen to forget to tag and register a deer, no one will really know. The WIDNR is also grateful enough to add 2 free doe tags to your buck tag for your county of choice that they determine to be over populated.
My county is kind of split, big forest in the north of it, with lots of public land, and farmland to the south, with mostly private land. The private landowning farmers in the south of the county complain and put in deer damage claims to get money for deer damage, DNR increases permits because of the claims, the problem is the private farming land owners dont allow hunting on the private land, and there is very little public land in the southern part of the county, so they sell all these permits, and licenses and people flock to the northern forest zone with all the public land, but the wolves, bear, hard winter, and many previous years of over hunting has already taken care of most of the deer. The county needs to be split in half, or make the southern part of the county that is requesting more permits, to allow the public to hunt.
When I first bought my land in the late 90's, the deer were thick up here, now, the wolves, and WIDNR fixed that.
You can pretty much buy as many doe permits you want, before season, or during, shoot 10 does, want more tags, just buy more. It use to be $2 per doe tag, they went up to $12 now. Deer registration is all done online now, so if you happen to forget to tag and register a deer, no one will really know. The WIDNR is also grateful enough to add 2 free doe tags to your buck tag for your county of choice that they determine to be over populated.
My county is kind of split, big forest in the north of it, with lots of public land, and farmland to the south, with mostly private land. The private landowning farmers in the south of the county complain and put in deer damage claims to get money for deer damage, DNR increases permits because of the claims, the problem is the private farming land owners dont allow hunting on the private land, and there is very little public land in the southern part of the county, so they sell all these permits, and licenses and people flock to the northern forest zone with all the public land, but the wolves, bear, hard winter, and many previous years of over hunting has already taken care of most of the deer. The county needs to be split in half, or make the southern part of the county that is requesting more permits, to allow the public to hunt.
When I first bought my land in the late 90's, the deer were thick up here, now, the wolves, and WIDNR fixed that.
Brian662
5 year old buck +
Good info and very true. When I bought my bow license in WI this year it came with 5 doe tags and one buck tag. Same with the gun license. Absolute insanity how plentiful the tags are.
In MN, in my area (zone 2) you get one either or tag and pay ($17 I think) for an extra doe tag. A VERY short distance away, you can buy unlimited CWD doe tags for $2 per. Make it make sense, any of it.
Hoytvectrix
5 year old buck +
Does anyone know if and when MN DNR has meetings for public comment on hunting regulations? I saw they had one in October for fishing. You all have compelled me to at least attend the meeting if and when it happens.
Wind Gypsy
5 year old buck +
I'm not aware of any scheduled public input sessions. There is a way to report your sightings while hunting that I'd encourage in particular folks who had deerless hunts in zone 1 to report on.
They created a new "deer management plan" in 2019 that covers a 10 year period so that is out there for a while. https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/mammals/deer/management/planning/index.html
They review goals for about 25% of the units each year so it's good to leave input on those about once ever 4 years https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/mammals/deer/management/deer-goals-history.html
One thing I'm going to look into more is the various reasons they make for not managing towards quality. From the deer plan FAQs
Bowsnbucks
5 year old buck +
Our state game lands here USED TO hold lots of deer, and there were plenty of hunters .......... plenty. But the state lands got hunted to death, deer numbers crashed, and state lands that were once hunted heavily have become ghost towns in deer season. When I sit with my sons on a ridgetop on the first 2 days of rifle deer season, and we hear maybe 10 shots all day - including distant shots too - that's DEAD for Pa. When I started hunting, it was very common to hear 50 shots or so in the first 5 hours on opening day - and those weren't distant shots, barely within hearing. Driving along state lands roads, you're lucky to see any vehicles parked from hunters. We used to see 40 vehicles in 1 parking lot, and dozens more all along the roads.
Hunters just got the sh*ts of seeing no deer. Why take off work, spend money to drive to the "big woods" areas of Pa. where much of the open state lands are, get motel rooms, food, etc. to spend 2 days hunting and see nothing. Snow on the ground and no tracks to be found = deer aren't flying to get around. State lands here are managed for TIMBER - NOT wildlife anymore.
EDIT - most of the Pa. Game Commission's funding comes from license sales here. Fewer licenses sold - less $$ to go around. That's one of the main reasons the Pa. Game Commission changed the first day of rifle season to the Saturday after Thanksgiving, and began Sunday hunting on the first weekend ........ to create more hunting opportunities for young hunters (school days) and men (getting off work.) But the late word is - the Saturday after Thanksgiving opener isn't all that popular. Reason - spend Thanksgiving with family/friends, then hurry up and pack your gear, head to hunting camp, move your stuff in, race out to check your stands one last time, hurry through supper /clean-up, and head for bed. Too much HURRY / RAT-RACE involved - not the customary 3-day, relaxing, scouting, comradery now. Pa. hunters for decades had Friday, Saturday, and Sunday to accomplish all that with time to relax and unwind a bit at camp before hitting the woods. The Saturday opener isn't the much-welcomed thing the Game Commission hoped it would be. Articles have been written about this in newspapers.
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PatinPA
5 year old buck +
Used to hunt state games in Perry county that my family has hunted for probably 100 years. When I was a kid there were loads of hunters and loads of deer. The first day of rifle you better be there an hour before daylight or you weren't getting a parking spot in the lot. I took a friend from work there a few years ago and I was late getting there. I thought crap I'm going to have to park down the hill and walk up. I was only the 3rd car. The other was my friend and his son and the third was an older guy who was just going to walk a bit down in the woods and sit. One thing I don't understand is with the lack of hunters why aren't the deer rebounding on game lands and state forests.
I know one of the problems is the stupid 50 year timber plans they're on. Our family camp in northern PA has 1000's of acres of state forest behind it and most places you could easily see 200+ yards on the ground. No forage what so ever. Had to rely on beech and cherry mast. Now that they've finally started timbering it, our family has been seeing and taking some pretty good buck for up there.
I have a rare state game lands near me now that has food plots and fields that they plant with corn and leave standing all year. It's really good hunting in archery. Rifle gets pretty crowded from what I hear but it's still pretty good.
Bowsnbucks
5 year old buck +
I think you hit the reason for deer not rebounding on a lot of state land - it's the plan for TIMBER sales going forward. For Pa. hardwoods to be prime for market, they have to be allowed to get big to get the most board feet of lumber out of the trees. I know what you mean when you talk about seeing for 200+ yards and no understory in the big woods up north. We dealt with that situation on our own camp acreage. Logging got sunlight on the ground, which got new stuff growing, in addition to the various seedlings we planted. With snow on the ground - we wouldn't see a track going through that section of our land. NO wonder - no cover and no browse.
Looking back to Pa.'s deer "boom" years, they came as a result of the extensive logging in the late 1800's and early 1900's. The timber taken back then was pine and hemlock, not good for deer food/browse. Sunlight on the ground spawned LOADS of new forest growth, which led to more hardwood trees with hard & soft mast - and cover / browse down at deer level. It became a paradise for deer with so much food & cover readily available. But now, in many areas of mountainous Pa. terrain, the woods are managed more for timber dollars than for deer. The Pa. Game Commission can say whatever they want, but the massive numbers of doe tags compared to years ago, combined with maturing / mature forests in much of the "big woods" counties = less deer to hunt in those areas. For decades, the top deer harvesting counties were all across the northern tier of Pa. That hasn't been the case for years now. The area I started hunting in was loaded with deer for years. They did sectional cutting of strips of forest - and the resulting new growth in those strips fed and housed more deer. Now, when timbering is done, it seems to be "high-grading" type of cutting. The big oaks, maples, tulip poplar, and cherry get taken - which produce the most seed. Striped maple - a JUNK tree - grows rampant in many of the forest logged areas these days. I've driven and walked through miles of timbered forest that's now POLLUTED with striped maple. Pa. agencies sure do a great job of growing these JUNK trees - they're no good for lumber OR mast production. Massive spraying to kill the junk trees and invasives has to happen for any marketable hardwoods to flourish in those mountains.
We have a few areas where timbering was one, and deer exclusion fencing was put up to keep the deer from eating all new growth to the ground. THOSE areas had great forest regeneration inside those fences. It got thick like hair inside the fences - looks like a hairbrush from a distance. Once the trees inside get to a certain size (beyond browse destruction), they then take the fences down. A private forester told me those super-thick young trees will thin themselves to the strongest specimens naturally. If the state keeps following that process, there's hope for more deer (at least in the rotating areas), and more hardwoods for the future. I'm not surprised you're seeing / taking more deer in the logged areas where you hunt upstate. A N.Y. land manager calls chainsaws " a deer's best friend." Mature timber / no understory = few deer. Logged areas with sunlight reaching the ground / new growth = more & healthier deer. All we have to do is look back to the OLD logging days and what spurred the deer population back then. Nowadays we log in sections - rotationally - we no longer strip millions of acres at once. Follow the logging for more deer!!
Deer at your camp upstate rely on beech and cherry for food?? I'm guessing you're in the N.E. part of the northern region - maybe Sullivan, NE Lycoming, southern Bradford, northern Columbia counties. Or possibly the NW corner of the state where most of the marketable cherry comes from. Did I hit it??
PatinPA
5 year old buck +
Close. SE Potter. West of Galeton not quite out to Lyman Lake.I think you hit the reason for deer not rebounding on a lot of state land - it's the plan for TIMBER sales going forward. For Pa. hardwoods to be prime for market, they have to be allowed to get big to get the most board feet of lumber out of the trees. I know what you mean when you talk about seeing for 200+ yards and no understory in the big woods up north. We dealt with that situation on our own camp acreage. Logging got sunlight on the ground, which got new stuff growing, in addition to the various seedlings we planted. With snow on the ground - we wouldn't see a track going through that section of our land. NO wonder - no cover and no browse.
Looking back to Pa.'s deer "boom" years, they came as a result of the extensive logging in the late 1800's and early 1900's. The timber taken back then was pine and hemlock, not good for deer food/browse. Sunlight on the ground spawned LOADS of new forest growth, which led to more hardwood trees with hard & soft mast - and cover / browse down at deer level. It became a paradise for deer with so much food & cover readily available. But now, in many areas of mountainous Pa. terrain, the woods are managed more for timber dollars than for deer. The Pa. Game Commission can say whatever they want, but the massive numbers of doe tags compared to years ago, combined with maturing / mature forests in much of the "big woods" counties = less deer to hunt in those areas. For decades, the top deer harvesting counties were all across the northern tier of Pa. That hasn't been the case for years now. The area I started hunting in was loaded with deer for years. They did sectional cutting of strips of forest - and the resulting new growth in those strips fed and housed more deer. Now, when timbering is done, it seems to be "high-grading" type of cutting. The big oaks, maples, tulip poplar, and cherry get taken - which produce the most seed. Striped maple - a JUNK tree - grows rampant in many of the forest logged areas these days. I've driven and walked through miles of timbered forest that's now POLLUTED with striped maple. Pa. agencies sure do a great job of growing these JUNK trees - they're no good for lumber OR mast production. Massive spraying to kill the junk trees and invasives has to happen for any marketable hardwoods to flourish in those mountains.
We have a few areas where timbering was one, and deer exclusion fencing was put up to keep the deer from eating all new growth to the ground. THOSE areas had great forest regeneration inside those fences. It got thick like hair inside the fences - looks like a hairbrush from a distance. Once the trees inside get to a certain size (beyond browse destruction), they then take the fences down. A private forester told me those super-thick young trees will thin themselves to the strongest specimens naturally. If the state keeps following that process, there's hope for more deer (at least in the rotating areas), and more hardwoods for the future. I'm not surprised you're seeing / taking more deer in the logged areas where you hunt upstate. A N.Y. land manager calls chainsaws " a deer's best friend." Mature timber / no understory = few deer. Logged areas with sunlight reaching the ground / new growth = more & healthier deer. All we have to do is look back to the OLD logging days and what spurred the deer population back then. Nowadays we log in sections - rotationally - we no longer strip millions of acres at once. Follow the logging for more deer!!
Deer at your camp upstate rely on beech and cherry for food?? I'm guessing you're in the N.E. part of the northern region - maybe Sullivan, NE Lycoming, southern Bradford, northern Columbia counties. Or possibly the NW corner of the state where most of the marketable cherry comes from. Did I hit it??
Bowsnbucks
5 year old buck +
I remember when Potter was THE #1 deer county in Pa. For a number of years it was on top of the harvest number counts. Tioga, McKean, and Bradford counties usually trailed Potter for the next most deer taken.
Much timbering being done up there? My camp is in NW Lycoming Co.
Much timbering being done up there? My camp is in NW Lycoming Co.
PatinPA
5 year old buck +
They started out putting those clear cut enclosures to look at how much deer were browsing. They've since removed them and have started timbering a lot of the state forest. I can't speak for all of it but it seems that they've been timbering a good bit of it in our area. The state forest land anyway. Ya my great uncles would always hunt up there and they'd see 50 doe and one spike every year. Far less deer now but they've killed some nice ones recently including probably a 140". There is an old orchard on the camp property that needs some love. We've been planting various fruit and chestnut trees up there. Including some bradford pears. I know they're invasive but damn do the turkeys ever love them. They fly up in the limbs and eat them off the branches. My cousin was picking my brain about food plots. He's tried to put some in, in the past. I think they were way too small. There is absolutely no ag in the area so I'm sure what gets planted gets eaten immediately. We're going to come up with a plan in the spring. I usually can't make it up there in the fall to hunt but I try to make it up for spring turkey.
