Pa. Game Commission survey

[Bowsnbucks]

Got a call from a lady from Resource Management out of Va. She said the Pa. Game Commission contracted them to conduct surveys of Pa. hunters concerning opinions on deer numbers, doe tags, season structure, money spent on hunting trips, etc. The questions were pretty specific and the whole survey fairly comprehensive. When I asked what they were going to do with the results, she said the Game Commission wanted to know hunters' attitudes toward their deer mgmnt. programs. She said the Game Comm. was trying to see if hunters were going to voice opposition en masse and publicly fight the Game Comm. when it came to their policies.

The $$$ spending q's were specific as to what WMU you spent $ in and how much on specific items such as food, ammo., guns, lodging, gas, hunting clothes, binoculars, scopes, etc. ( I guess to assess economic impact for local vendors ). They wanted to know my opinion on deer numbers, satisfaction levels on deer sighted, deer killed, concurrent buck/doe seasons, split season ( bucks only 1st week, bucks OR does 2nd week ). They asked if I thought there are more deer now than in the past. The one question that was asked several times - each time worded just a little differently - was, " If you knew the deer herd numbers would stay the same if a concurrent season was enacted, would you support it or oppose it? "

I couldn't help but wonder if the MDDI, NDA and other such movements around the country as well as sportsmens' club groups are making the Game Commission nervous. The lady said her company was conducting such surveys in various states. I told her hunters from numerous states are going to turn up the heat on Game Commissions & DNR's until the theme of " way too many deer - numbers must be reduced " is changed. She DID say some Pa. hunters said they hardly see any deer any more. She said it was in certain areas, but not all.

I don't know if any of you guys out there on the forum have had similar calls or letters to participate in such surveys. Interested to hear your thoughts, opinions. Do you think some of the state agencies are trying to measure the blood pressure of the hunting community?

 

[bat man]

The wildlife managers in different states know each other quite well. They attend conferences, have worked together elsewhere etc. I am sure the vibe hunters are not pleased with the herd reduction nationwide is being felt.

Is that is enough to bring long term change alone? I doubt it, but it is part of the puzzle.

Seems deer management has become a political game where the squeaky wheel gets grease and the perception is the reality. Different game than 15 or 20 years ago.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Bat Man - your comment about the squeaky wheel is the same one told to me by the lady who surveyed me by phone. She said the Game Comm. is trying to figure out how
" squeaky " we hunters are willing to get. So we have their attention on low deer numbers. We need to elevate the squeak to a roar and stick together. Timber/paper and insurance
industries are the big $ players.

 

[biglakeba$$]

I wait by my phone for a call like that here in MN...... The cobwebs have become very thick on the phone......

 

[JackTerp]

Many years ago, I had a BIL that worked for a major insurance underwriter. He was some kind of executive and he hated large wildlife. He spent a great deal of his time lobbying the PA game commission to do anything in their power to eliminate as many deer as possible because it hurt their bottom line due to massive claims. He told me that wildlife claims across the country were the second largest segment of their payouts. Second only to weather related claims. Politics being what they are in PA it is understandable that they have "modified" regulations to appease some that do not have the welfare of the hunter. I was born and raised just outside Pittsburgh and remember when a lot of the "upper" class neighborhoods would not let you hunt. At least not until the deer started eating their high dollar plants. Then they wanted the GC to pay for the damages but not hurt the pretty deer. Then they wanted the deer moved. Then they wanted them spayed and neutered. Then all of a sudden a lot of these areas allowed hunting about the same time the limits and seasons were modified to eliminate as many deer as possible.

My family is a large one. I have dozens of cousins and many dozens of their children and they all deer hunt. We used to hunt from Cooks Forest north into Potter County. We were quite successful because we put a lot of effort into it. There are no deer left in those areas. It is not unusual to hunt opening day in Cooks Forest and not hear a shot all day. That is unbelievable.

Now the Game Commission is wondering why hunter numbers are dropping fast. Their revenues are dropping faster. Their paychecks are now being threatened and suddenly they want the hunter's opinion? PA used to have the greatest Game Commission in the country, IMHO. Now they are more of a political organization. They still claim to be separate, but in reality they are not. And it is worse now that they are getting billions of dollars for the gas rights under the State Gamelands.

I really wish I would get a call, but I am now a non-resident hunter and probably don't count.

Sorry for the rant, but I would really like to know if the persons making these calls are, in fact, working at the request of the Game Commission.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

As far as who the surveyors are working for - WHO KNOWS??? As for how big money ( and I mean BIG money ) interests operate - EVERYTHING is done in secret behind closed doors. Who signed away the mineral rights under Pa. state Game Lands and State Forest land? REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR TOM CORBETT. And we are the only state in the U.S. that doesn't charge the gas & oil companies an extraction tax for mineral rights under state land - supposedly owned by ALL Pa. residents - for use by the whole commonwealth. The oil & gas companies contributed heavily to his campaign. Hey voters..... There's no quid pro quo. ( we're counting on you to be stupid & trusting ). Watch where he lands after his time in office. I predict it'll be a highly paid lobbying job or as a consultant for the oil & gas companies. A thank-you job.

I agree with you that the Pa. Game Commission is politically driven. Hidden dark $$$ and favors. No one in Pa. takes them seriously anymore. They drilled so many holes in their own boat, they're looking up at sediment. Complete & total house cleaning is the only answer.

Your comment about not hearing a shot all day....... I had other Pa. folks ridicule me on another forum for saying we couldn't find tracks in the snow a few years ago. Where I hunt is on a ridge top on the Eastern edge of the Allegheny Plateau region of Pa. I can see & hear for MILES. For probably the last 7 or 8 years I haven't heard more than 12 shots on the first day of rifle deer season. Sometimes as few as 6. I'm talking even way-off, barely perceptible shots. When I started to hunt in 1970, and for 20 to 25 years after that, the first day sounded like war broke out. Deer tracks all over in the snow - like barnyards. Not any more. But of course - I'm not seeing things right. I'm not smart like the experts.

I remember the spaying - neutering - birth control pellets suggestions put forth by the TRULY STUPID. Country club " pillars of the community! "

I think it's poetic justice in a way for the Game Commission to be crying about so few young hunters entering the ranks. I've heard older, dedicated, veteran hunters disgusted with the number of deer seen in recent years. Some have refused to take off work for slim chances of seeing anything to shoot at. The comments go " I can buy a lot of beef for the money I'll lose to sit all day & see nothing. " So how does the Game Commission expect young, restless, impatient kids to be gung-ho on being out in the cold all day to see nothing or one deer they can't shoot??? Kids have a short attention span as it is, and many more choices for " fun " things to do. I realize deer hunting is not an instantaneous circus, but they need to see some numbers of deer to keep their hopes up. Let's print up another HALF MILLION DOE TAGS.

Your rant doesn't offend ME, Jack Terp. I can match anyone - RANT for RANT. I AGREE with you on the Pa. experience. I'm glad you spoke up.

 

[JackTerp]

We now own land is Washington County. We had to buy land because there are no more deer left on public land. They issued so many doe tags then mad an 8 point (4X4) restriction. I agree with the restriction, but I saw cars and trucks loaded with doe. A friend who butchers a great number of deer every year now requires payment when you drop off a deer because so many people never come back after dropping of 8 doe. He donates the meat, but that is not the issue. The GC has created a disgusting group of hunters now.

I pay about $140 a year to come up and hunt with my cousins and their kids. I love it. But PA is not the PA I used to know and love.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

You're right about it not being the same Pa. I think the biggest concentrations of deer in Pa. now are in SW & SE Pa. on private land and areas where access is not permitted ( city, township, utility ground ), and fringe areas around suburban development. It used to be in the " Big Woods " counties of the Northern tier.

Just a quick example - an area I used to hunt for years ( state land ) that required a 2 mile ( really ) walk in from the nearest parking area was loaded with deer trails that looked like cattle paths. In different years I counted over 300 rubs without really trying hard. A co-worker didn't believe me until I took him there and he started counting for himself. He was a believer then. Now - you are lucky to see 10 to 15 rubs there in Nov. and the deer trails that were mud & dirt are grown over. Hard to find a good trail. SAD.

 

[JackTerp]

I'll bet if you could find the information on deer related accidents for the past 5 years, they have dropped dramatically. That is what they wanted in the first place. They really don't care about the hunter any more. ONe of my best friends in high school retired from the GC as a Game Warden because he couldn't stand the politics involved now. He gets so mad at times it's like talking to my wife about Obummer.

 

[bat man]

NDA will fix it.

or NOT.

 

[phil@thesidehill]

i haven't gotten a call....i am really curious about this survey. the operator seemed very candid with you as far as discussing PGC's reasoning goes. I would think that an operator conducting a survey having nothing to do with the his/her state of residency would not have such insights. The other thing that is concerning about this call, is that the PGC is shipping business that can be conducted here in PA out to another state! My father and I own/operate a small customer service call center! I know that the DCNR also farms out its state park reservations call center ops to some place in GA. that is bullshit..they should be required to source in state options.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

That's what you get with the " free market " brainwashing. Whoever underbids to the lowest possible price gets the job. Many economists have spoken and written about it calling practices such as this " the race to the bottom". ( obviously they weren't referring to the Pa. Game Commission, but such practices in general. )

As to why the caller doing the survey gave her opinion on G.C. reasons for the survey or other hunter comments about it, I have no idea. She seemed awfully chatty. I don't know about her insights from other states or from responses gathered from Pa. folks. I DO know she had info on me and what WMU I typically hunt in and where I apply for doe tags. So she may have had access to the PGC data bases. She DID say she was calling from Va. though. She shared her own story of crabbing in the Chesapeake Bay and how female egg-bearing crabs were off-limits for years. She said she grew up crabbing there, but the laws were relaxed so females could be kept. She wondered how long the crab fishery was gonna hold up under that kind of pressure. Why she divulged all that info is beyond me, unless privately she felt ( about crabs ) like some of us do about deer numbers. Your guess is as good as mine, Phil.

I did read somewhere that the PGC was gonna survey hunters about deer numbers & seasons. I don't recall what paper or Net article I read it from.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Any of you guys feel like we're de-facto players in an absurd game? Why does it seem like SO MANY things are devoid of common sense? Not just wildlife management. We're treated like babies incapable of critical thinking. " Here - let's pacify them with today's line of B.S. " Is it just me???

 

[phil@thesidehill]

That's what you get with the " free market " brainwashing. Whoever underbids to the lowest possible price gets the job. Many economists have spoken and written about it calling practices such as this " the race to the bottom". ( obviously they weren't referring to the Pa. Game Commission, but such practices in general. )

As to why the caller doing the survey gave her opinion on G.C. reasons for the survey or other hunter comments about it, I have no idea. She seemed awfully chatty. I don't know about her insights from other states or from responses gathered from Pa. folks. I DO know she had info on me and what WMU I typically hunt in and where I apply for doe tags. So she may have had access to the PGC data bases. She DID say she was calling from Va. though. She shared her own story of crabbing in the Chesapeake Bay and how female egg-bearing crabs were off-limits for years. She said she grew up crabbing there, but the laws were relaxed so females could be kept. She wondered how long the crab fishery was gonna hold up under that kind of pressure. Why she divulged all that info is beyond me, unless privately she felt ( about crabs ) like some of us do about deer numbers. Your guess is as good as mine, Phil.

I did read somewhere that the PGC was gonna survey hunters about deer numbers & seasons. I don't recall what paper or Net article I read it from.

I did some poking around on this survey. It was conducted on behalf of the PGC by an outfit called Responsive Management based in VA. here is the link to the survey summary and results.
http://www.responsivemanagement.com/download/reports/PA_Deer_Report.pdf

We have very good relationships with our elected. One of them told us that she heard that some call center work for the DCNR was quite possibly going to be coming up for bid soon, and that we might want to get an RFP together. As this process moved along we started researching the current operations and discovered that the current contract was being serviced by an operation out of GA. we were shocked that this business was farmed out to non-resident businesses. This was a fairly substantial contract. we knew if we could get this contract, we would have to hire at least 10 more full time CSR's and up to 30 part time/seasonal employess to handle it. Where i live, the potential for that many jobs locally is pretty significant. As it turns out, this was not a "race to the bottom" cheapest bid type of scenario. The ownership interest int he GA company had extensive ties to the then Governor's office. Nepitism and crony-ism at its finest.

 

[bat man]

I sat in an Omnibus bill hearing one day and at one point one of the elected had requested that the bid stay in MN. Sounds like something they can write in?

 

[phil@thesidehill]

I sat in an Omnibus bill hearing one day and at one point one of the elected had requested that the bid stay in MN. Sounds like something they can write in?

From my understanding it is. Just not sure where it sits as of now.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I agree that the business should be conducted by in-state entities. And I'll go further. I think ANY company that enjoys the benefits of U.S. protections, financing, tax incentives, infrastructure, patents, etc. , etc. should keep their operations HERE in-country. Hire U.S. workers - build OUR economy. We either stand up for our own country and it's people & economy - or we risk becoming a third world country ourselves. Let's not forget how close we came to a complete financial collapse. ( for a variety of ugly reasons ). Anyone who waves the flag and wraps themselves or their business in the Red - White - & Blue and then sets up shop in another country ( especially a COMMUNIST COUNTRY ) is a TRAITOR to this country in my view. How does that go......... United we STAND......... ( and the rest of it that never gets mentioned )....... Divided we FALL.

I am for THIS country, and it's citizens. Not COMMUNIST CHINA, not Mexico, not Singapore, not India, Pakistan, Viet Nam or any other country. I realize I digress from the in-state issues, but - this outsourcing, farming out corrosion spreads to many arenas. I - for one - am sick of it.


Not picking on - or defending anyone. Human nature at work here. On cronyism - if you or I or any of the readers here had an inside track to get a juicy contract - would we bitch? How many of us would run to the authorities and yell " He's giving me an un-fair advantage on this contract. " ????? Just a thought.

 

[phil@thesidehill]

I can tell you if we were offered a contract that had even the slightest hint of political corruption or the potential for it....we would not proceed.....the risk is not worth the reward. Our company has our name on it, we don't have a corporation to hide behind....and we just plain out aren't criminals. I know a business owner that was accused of taking part in a political corruption scandal, he was not guilty of anything and was proved to be innocent in the long run....but the crap that he and his family had to live through because their name was on the building....was unreal. His business suffered immensely as well and still hasn't fully recovered some number of years later.

One of our other ventures is a completely Made in the USA ecommerce store. Its still in it's infancy...but we could be launching soon. I grew up in a manufacturing town....that manufacturer now makes about 80% of their products off shore. The only on-shore manufacturing they do is for the military contracts that they have.

 

[bat man]

I agree that the business should be conducted by in-state entities. And I'll go further. I think ANY company that enjoys the benefits of U.S. protections, financing, tax incentives, infrastructure, patents, etc. , etc. should keep their operations HERE in-country. Hire U.S. workers - build OUR economy. .

When we finally sourced our ground blind production overseas, people would call and chew my ass for having work done in China. When they settled down I would tell them I still made blinds domestically and that if they wanted the American made version we could hook them up. The calls happened on a weekly basis.

Not a single customer ever let me put the extra $100 on their credit card.

Not saying you can't compete, but you likely can't compete.

Even if we brought those jobs back, where is the workforce? Guessing 90% of the people out of work in the US likely don't want a job.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Batman - I know lots of college-educated, highly motivated people that lost their jobs due to off-shoring. They were not just in manufacturing, but various levels of management, engineering, tech-oriented careers in several fields. They had no problems with out-sourcing jobs - until it was THEIR jobs that disappeared. They had changes in their points of view then - big-time. After long, time-consuming job searches ( all the while the bills were piling up ) most had to take much lower-paying jobs working at places like Home Depot, Lowes, clerking in stores, working for landscapers, etc. In talking with many of them ( baseball dads, coaches, neighbors, church friends ) they were left to wonder what good their college degrees were. They racked up student loans, got married, had kids, figuring they'd do O.K. in life. But with the swipe of a pen(s) in Washington, jobs began leaving the U.S. by the millions.

The people I know aren't lazy, loafing, welfare-sucking slobs. But they sure know when they had the rug ripped out from under them and that they took a f-ing. They told me when applying for jobs, they were told " you're over-qualified. " Where are those a$$holes who constantly say " If you want to succeed, you need a good education. " Lots of people have good educations, but where does it get them? Businesses are saying to American workers ( without actually saying it in words ) " you either work for the kind of low pay, no benefit deal we drop on overseas workers or you don't work. " So American workers ( at any position ) are expected to lower our standard of living to third world status so business owners can get richer - quicker. I'm so glad I'm ready to retire ( in good financial shape from 34 yrs. of good, hard, honorable working and handling the $ wisely. ) I really, truly feel bad for our kids and grandkids. If the trend continues, they'll HURT. The newspapers, financial mags. ,and e-news are stocked with articles about young folks coming out of college with degrees, but can't get jobs in their fields of expertise. So they're clerking in stores, house-painting, doing all sorts of menial jobs. They have student debt ( their parents may not have been rich ). How long can we expect them to suck hind tit as the saying goes, before they take a radically different view of the country? And DO something about it?

As far as competing, WHO is competing??? Is Ping-Ting-Ho COMMUNIST CHINESE company making camo now? Or hunting rifles? Or furniture? Drywall, complete with toxins? Did the COMMUNIST CHINESE start making leather boots because U.S. workers lack the skills to make them? Or was it SO - CALLED U.S. companies that set up sweat shops in other countries to exploit those who have no voice ( because the government kills anyone who dares to speak up - like COMMUNIST CHINA does ). The answer is - WORKERS must compete - for jobs. THAT'S the competition, not because a company in Pakistan invented a better widget. You want to work? Go lower. The funny, ironic part of this plan of action is when American citizens aren't buying goods & services from local smaller companies & the business owners complain that people aren't coming in the doors like they used to. I heard LOTS of that with my own ears & read plenty about it in various media. People with lower pay, no ( or disappearing )benefits, constantly wondering whether they'll have a job next week - WILL NOT spend $$$ like they always did when the U.S. economy was strong and THE world leader in exports. We reap what we sow.