Minnesota Hunters (which would you choose)?

[Greta&Gus]

We are shooting no does off our land this year except my daughter maybe.

Her first year of hunting and I will be damned if I am going to limit her options for her first time hunting. She gets to choose. She knows none of us are shooting does and I have told her she can decide whatever she wants to do.

Wont be too many years of kids being told they cant shoot does, and she will be losing interest in no time. I really do not want that.

Let your daughter shoot what she wants. Kids always get a pass in my opinion.

 

[biglakeba$$]

I predicted it months ago, and I think many of us knew this was coming.... doe permits slashed and now we will have a revolt on our hands for next year from the uninformed hunters screaming bloody murder that they want tags to shoot deer..... And all the deer they saw this year.....
Well the funny thing is that people that cant shoot the first anterless deer they see, will have to spend time in the woods, and might just see 1 or 2 more deer... and in their eyes, there are "deer everywhere and I cant shoot one!"......

 

[bat man]

Let your daughter shoot what she wants. Kids always get a pass in my opinion.

My middle child is a 10 year old boy. He passed a doe last Sunday. 10 yards broadside 2 hours after daylight. He has spent way too much time listening to me on the phone, but he knows the consequences of killing fawn dropping does in low density areas.

He has never killed a deer and made the call with zero prompting from me.

 

[MoBuckChaser]

I predicted it months ago, and I think many of us knew this was coming.... doe permits slashed and now we will have a revolt on our hands for next year from the uninformed hunters screaming bloody murder that they want tags to shoot deer..... And all the deer they saw this year.....
Well the funny thing is that people that cant shoot the first anterless deer they see, will have to spend time in the woods, and might just see 1 or 2 more deer... and in their eyes, there are "deer everywhere and I cant shoot one!"......

So no one wants to spend time in the woods and actually HUNT? Pretty sad when it has just turned in to killing and killing only!

 

[Freeborn]

So a friend of mine's son shot a doe in zone 241. He is 14 and I think that is awesome. She is seeing deer all over the place, I have a hard time believing it. Other than that I am hearing bad reports of very few year.

Here is the kicker, no one, and I mean no one, wants to hold off on what they shoot. They are mad. I mean MAD. That the DNR reduced the doe harvest. No one I talk to off of this forum, in any zone, can think past this November. The herd will have to be much less than it is today for the hunters to start changing their habits. We will see a lot of poaching this year.

So what are they saying is the reason they need to shoot all of these does? Do they claim they need them for food or are they giving no reason? Do any of these people like the idea of getting a good buck or is there no reasoning to them at all?

 

[MoBuckChaser]

An

I agree, but from what I can tell...that's MN deer hunting. God forbid its cold, snowy, rainy, windy, firearm season is outside the rut, a guy has to pass a doe, fawn, or smaller buck, or any other possible thing standing in the way of "how things always used to be" or "filling the freezer". Deer are simply free range hogs/cattle that the people of MN feel they have the right to harvest as many as they see fit. It isn't "deer hunting"...it is "meat acquisition". Kill 'em all

An Entitlement society we live in....you got to love it!:(

 

[MoBuckChaser]

Every thread in this forum always turns into MN hunting sucks. That is pretty sad in itself!

 

[bwoods11]

bwoods,

of the 4 choices, what one do you think has the best chance of ever even being discussed publicly by the DNR for hunter input?

I honestly dont think any of those will gain enough support to even move past a pipe dream status with vast majority of hunters we have today.

Zone 1 will NEVER get the season pushed back a week or two.... First screams I can already hear is the hunters saying its already cold enough where its at.... Call me crazy.... But we live in a state where people are happy with what they have.... And as I told Brooks the other night as we sat having some barley pops.... The longer this sub par deer hunting continues,,,, the younger generation of hunters will know no different. They are growing up seeing what we have now, so 5, 10, 15+ years of the same thing and they are brainwashed into the fact that "this is hunting in MN"........ It will become whats expected and what they have to look forward to. The kids that lock in and stick with hunting wont be able to complain, because it will be all that they know....

I don't think so. My sons age group (18-25) and the younger crew grew up watching hunting shows/ checking trail cams. Texting pictures of their bucks to each other. They all pass deer. This group seems to be more interested in quality than quantity. There are lots of them too. Two of the fastest growing outdoor sports in MN are archery and trap shooting.

Their voice is silent now, but ten years from now they will be the guys with more voice then the current 60 year old hunter that looks at tradition and deer camp as being why they hunt.

I'm not saying some of the traditions and deer camps will go away...they should not. They will just adjust to what this next generation wants ( which will be more deer and quality bucks)

 

[MoBuckChaser]

Yup...

I'm ready to just say screw it and let the chips fall where they may. Put up with sub par hunting and smile...all the while knowing how good it could be

Think locally...screw the state's management

Its hard for me to say screw it, and mean it. But I can understand. The first farm the wife and I owned in Nowthen was unreal hunting for 11 years. Then I bought the farm in Mora, was some huge bucks in the area and the hunting got very good until the decline of the past 10 years. It can get back to the good old days if people would wake up, take a few reduced harvest years, and let the herd grow. I really believe it can happen! I am getting sick of hearing all the whining about only being able to shoot one deer this year, and it is some of my friends doing the whining! Geeez!

 

[biglakeba$$]

Brooks,

I get the fact your son passed on a doe and if it was his decision, more power to him.

But the fact that you do have deer densities far above surrounding areas is a big help..... Your son has shot at a nice buck this year. You have deer for your kids to see.
Thats a HUGE HUGE benefit....

If this season replicates my rifle hunt from last year,,,,, my daughter wont be in the woods very many years if I dont let her take a doe if she chooses. We do not have the deer you do on your land. If we see deer, its a big dang deal almost.... Well, I wont go quite that far, but if I want to hook my daughter, she is going to need to take a deer. I gaurantee you she wont get hooked on deer hunting seeing a deer or two total. Not much of a story to tell her friends I am afraid....

I want her to have a good experience early in her hunting career... whether that means we get to see a number of deer and she has fun with that.... or if we see 1 deer and its the one she gets to tag..... ultimately its her choice. I wont make her shoot a doe..... But I want her to have an experience that she can walk out of the woods and have the desire to want to do it again.

 

[bat man]

Brooks,

I get the fact your son passed on a doe and if it was his decision, more power to him.

But the fact that you do have deer densities far above surrounding areas is a big help..... Your son has shot at a nice buck this year. You have deer for your kids to see.
Thats a HUGE HUGE benefit....

If this season replicates my rifle hunt from last year,,,,, my daughter wont be in the woods very many years if I dont let her take a doe if she chooses. We do not have the deer you do on your land. If we see deer, its a big dang deal almost.... Well, I wont go quite that far, but if I want to hook my daughter, she is going to need to take a deer. I gaurantee you she wont get hooked on deer hunting seeing a deer or two total. Not much of a story to tell her friends I am afraid....

I want her to have a good experience early in her hunting career... whether that means we get to see a number of deer and she has fun with that.... or if we see 1 deer and its the one she gets to tag..... ultimately its her choice. I wont make her shoot a doe..... But I want her to have an experience that she can walk out of the woods and have the desire to want to do it again.

I get what you are saying, and you have to play the cards that are on the table.

I also think we have more control over the hand we are dealt than we are willing to admit.

I am not going to roll over and take the shit hand the DNR wants to deal. I am going to draw 5 until I get a good hand. When they quit giving me cards (about one year ago), I am going to ask someone else for a new deck.

Lots of problem solvers threatening to roll over and play dead here and that is their decision.

I am not done.

 

[biglakeba$$]

On behalf of many many people.... I continue to thank you for your personal efforts in all of this.

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

Every thread in this forum always turns into MN hunting sucks. That is pretty sad in itself!

If I was betting, I'd say the hunting in MN as a whole is at the low point and it is likely to get better. We might be a little frustrated that the changes aren't happening too quickly, but people are sure talking a low more about the DNR's decisions more now than a year ago. It seems likely another low harvest is coming this year and that get some of the people sitting on the fence to start talking and add some pressure. If this new push can get even a few people at the DNR fired, it will have a major long term impact on how the DNR manages the population. But I really doubt major improvements will come without having some people fired. Right now they can make any decisions they want without any negative consequences if they decrease the herd too far. If the next crop of DNR employees is worried about losing their jobs if they cut the deer numbers too far, these massive deer population decreases will be far less likely.

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

I know Scott and think he's genuinely an honest and good guy. That said, you simply can't make statements like that on 2.5 yr old bucks and be accurate. Heck, it's hard to make generalizations on antler sizes at 4.5+. At 2.5, soooooooooooooo much of what a buck has on his head is still dependent on its birth timing. I think it was John Ozoga (I know it was someone I take seriously) that said it takes a late born buck to get to be 3.5 before he really starts to shake off the impact of being born late, as it is revealed in his rack, if he is ever able to do so. My experiences line up perfectly, with that.

I've managed some absolutely primo grounds in what I feel is the ideal latitude belt (far enough south so the deer aren't really winter stressed, but far enough north that they are still a large enough sub species...Think N MO, IA, IL, OH, KS). I've never had the "majority of 2.5 year old bucks in his (any) area would meet(ing) the P&Y minimum" anywhere. I also managed a big chunk of SE MN for a good stretch of time, and I'm talking primo SE MN ground...didn't see that there, either.

I should clarify something I wrote earlier, though...I see plenty of bucks get called older than they really are in MN, WI & MI. The catch is that we don't have as many 2.5s and 3.5s that sprout incredible antlers for their age as one does in the N MO, IA, IL, OH, KSes of the world. Most hunters try to gauge age on rack size. When dealing with the 110" 4.5 yr old I had in C MN last year, most tend to think "oh, in one more year he'll be a good one, as he has to be young to have 110 inches." The 160" 12 point in IL a couple years ago, hunters tend to naturally believe he has to be a mature buck, as only mature bucks have racks like that.

There was a thread over on QDMA this past winter where they showed 4 bucks (kill and trail cam images) and asked for age guesses...3 of the 4 were 2.5 or 3.5, but most everyone over guessed their ages, as having racks that big must mean they are older deer.

I generally really like Scott's articles, but that one sentence he added in that article really threw me. It actually surprised me that that sentence made it through the editing process of that newsletter. On the properties you managed in SE MN, what's your gut feel for the average antler size of a 4.5 year old? From what I've seen on non-managed properties here, I'd say the average is in the 120-130" range.

In our area I'm not too concerned about high grading primarily because the vast majority of hunters would shoot a 100" deer without caring whether the buck is young or old, so the high grading doesn't have a major impact. But I could see how areas in Iowa could be severely impacted if a lot of hunters had antler standards higher than the average rack size for a mature buck. It's very likely in those areas that a ton of the old 110" bucks get passes from hunters waiting for a 140" deer and before long the buck population is dominated by the old bucks with the smaller racks that everyone has been passing up waiting for the big ones. So from a high-grading standpoint, I think we're far less likely to have those types of issues on most properties here than in Iowa.

I guess high-grading issues are far less important in areas of MN that lack decent deer numbers.

 

[Greta&Gus]

So what are they saying is the reason they need to shoot all of these does? Do they claim they need them for food or are they giving no reason? Do any of these people like the idea of getting a good buck or is there no reasoning to them at all?

Part of it is they claim they need the food, which is not entirely true. I love eating venison but that doesn't mean I can't buy some grass fed beef. Part of it is they are so stubborn they can't let the DNR 'win'. I know some of you say that MN hunters just go along with whatever the DNR says because they believe they know what is best. I am sure that is the case with some people, but most of the 'locals' I talk to will always disagree with the DNR regardless of the subject or view point. If the DNR said we had too few of DNR and needed to raise the herd they would probably argue we have too many.

Everyone I know likes killing big bucks but the tradition of always shooting a deer is hard break. If you don't shoot a deer, regardless of the size, you are a failure.

 

[Freeborn]

Part of it is they claim they need the food, which is not entirely true. I love eating venison but that doesn't mean I can't buy some grass fed beef. Part of it is they are so stubborn they can't let the DNR 'win'. I know some of you say that MN hunters just go along with whatever the DNR says because they believe they know what is best. I am sure that is the case with some people, but most of the 'locals' I talk to will always disagree with the DNR regardless of the subject or view point. If the DNR said we had too few of DNR and needed to raise the herd they would probably argue we have too many.

Everyone I know likes killing big bucks but the tradition of always shooting a deer is hard break. If you don't shoot a deer, regardless of the size, you are a failure.

What you are describing is what I expected. The tradition of killing is a big deal and that’s where information can help. We need people to understand that there actions have consequences to the quality of hunting they experience. In addition, hunting success should be measured by making the right decision about what to harvest and killing a deer every year is not success. Hunters should be able to come back to camp and say, saw a few does and a small buck but this year I chose to let them walk.

If hunters don't trust the DNR then revealing the DNR for what they are will bring hunters to our side of the effort.

The more I look at MDDI the more I like it as a first step towards getting hunters informed and achieving positive change.

Getting an audit done would let the DNR know they are going to be under the micro-scope and would inform the general public about Minnesota’s deer and deer management.

If the harvest is going to be as poor as many think it will be that’s when we use the public outcry as a lever to push for reform. We need to engage the public while the issue is current and on everyone’s mind or we will lose the opportunity and momentum.

Just my 2cents

 

[bwoods11]

Part of it is they claim they need the food, which is not entirely true. I love eating venison but that doesn't mean I can't buy some grass fed beef. Part of it is they are so stubborn they can't let the DNR 'win'. I know some of you say that MN hunters just go along with whatever the DNR says because they believe they know what is best. I am sure that is the case with some people, but most of the 'locals' I talk to will always disagree with the DNR regardless of the subject or view point. If the DNR said we had too few of DNR and needed to raise the herd they would probably argue we have too many.

Everyone I know likes killing big bucks but the tradition of always shooting a deer is hard break. If you don't shoot a deer, regardless of the size, you are a failure.

I've been writing this for 5 years. The MN DNR needs to make a tough decision. They need to do one of the 4 things I posted and go with it. They need to increase the doe population (now in process) then a plan has to be implemented to increase the buck population and age class.

They are in a leadership position and they can't make everyone happy. They will always be better off with more does and more mature bucks than not enough of either.

I compare this to an 0-16 coach. He may have to bench the veteran Qb and cleanup the roster. Doing the same, will result in poor results for years and years.

 

[bat man]

I've been writing this for 5 years. The MN DNR needs to make a tough decision.

They are in a leadership position and they can't make everyone happy.

I admire your drive, but the DNR is not the group that will implement the changes. The legislature tells the DNR what to do.

The DNR is not the leadership entity for changes to the MN deer season. Your elected is.

All of the emails I cc everybody on go to 1,000+ people that include elected, the press, and deer leadership interests across the state. I channel them through the DNR but never expect them to change anything because of what I ask or say. Pressure may come from the commish, but pressure from the elected, the public, fueled by info spread by the press is what gets things done with the current DNR group we have in St Paul.

MDHA has been asking things from the DNR every year, and they get nowhere unless it rolls through the elected. Look at the deer feeding, DNR would not have done that if they had the say. Elected told them to giddy up and get the food rolling.

 

[bwoods11]

Why?

We're looking at possibly the lowest harvest in 30+ years and there's been no decrease in license sales up until this year. Revenue will be down this year, but only because of fewer bonus tags. I'll bet regular license sales this year are steady, or possibly higher due to "Aunt Betty" and "Cousin Sue" buying licenses for the first time. Why does the DNR have to do anything?

Why because then Brooks will quit emailing them!!!:D

 

[Freeborn]

I admire your drive, but the DNR is not the group that will implement the changes. The legislature tells the DNR what to do.

The DNR is not the leadership entity for changes to the MN deer season. Your elected is.

All of the emails I cc everybody on go to 1,000+ people that include elected, the press, and deer leadership interests across the state. I channel them through the DNR but never expect them to change anything because of what I ask or say. Pressure may come from the commish, but pressure from the elected, the public, fueled by info spread by the press is what gets things done with the current DNR group we have in St Paul.

MDHA has been asking things from the DNR every year, and they get nowhere unless it rolls through the elected. Look at the deer feeding, DNR would not have done that if they had the say. Elected told them to giddy up and get the food rolling.

Agree 100%

10+ years ago I attempted to get the DNR to enforce a water structure violation that was occurring on Pelican Lake. A Plan Unit Development (PUD) had violated the terms of their permit and had put out 200’ of dock and 32 boat lifts when their PUD permit allowed 4 boat slips and a centralized dock for the 200’ of common lake shore they owned. I spent ½ a dozen years going back and forth with the DNR and Crow Wing Planning and Zoning until legal action was the only recourse. During those discussions the local water hydrologist who should have enforced the violation told me the DNR would not because Mike Hatch the State Attorney at the time would no longer support their actions unless the legislation wanted it. So they basically had the state’s highest attorney tell them they would not provide legal support so they could do their job. In my opinion at that moment the DNR stopped being the agency they were intended to be and turned into puppets for the politicians. The politicians wanted development no matter if it impacted the resource or the current cabin owners.

Bottom line that PUD and their docks and boat lifts still exist today even though on each of their lot titles their required to adhere to the PUD permit that limits them to 4 boat slips and a common dock. Hard to believe I could not get that enforced.

Getting the legislature on board is the only way the DNR will make any changes.