Feeling defeated

[nwmn]

Hey all. Been a minute since I've been frequenting this site but I've still been active in the landscape.

In 2020 we moved out to the in laws farm which is a paradise to me as there are giant oaks, tillable ground, and big buck potential. I've been planting food plots and helping that way, but I've been slowly trying to add bedding which this property is absolutely devoid of. Think of a city park and this is what the property looks like. Fescue growing in the woods with zero sun hitting forest floor. All open areas were previously mowed and taken over by smooth brome, ryegrass, bluegrass, etc. All cool season grasses. I've been cutting ash and basswood down to try and get regen and bedding and sunlight but all I do is create areas with taller cool season grass. I try and spray and work up a meadow and plant a pollinator planting during last years' drought and all was good...until this year. WIth no spring, and 12" rain since snow melt and recent temps soaring things have gotten out of control. RCG and thistles have absolutely taken over this planting.

I am trying to create a hot spot for milkweed as it's very prevalent out here but in most cases, where there is milkweed, there is thistle. I bought milestone understanding milkweed has aminopyralid tolerance. I sprayed thistle patches that in some cases took over half an acre in a year, and i'm seeing dieback of milkweed, what I am trying to protect.

I drive around looking at the landscape and all I see is grasses choking out any native species, I see thistles taking over anything that I've worked up, burned, sprayed while trying to add natives back to the landscape.

The only beneficial plant i've seen out here is milkweed. I dont think I've ever seen a native forb or flower besides flowering thistle lol. I'm really hesitant to resetting the grounds because there are oak seedlings growing all over in the grasses and I want to keep those going, but at the same time I would like to nuke it, and work it, then nuke it a few more times until I know the garbage species (rcg/thistle) will not take over once I plant a permanent mix into it and feel like I keep taking one step forward and 3 steps back.

I plan to get aspen logged, which will help add soil disturbance into the woods and get regen. However, I'm now afraid the only thing that will show up will be thistles and cool season grasses once sun hits the forest floor. I'm a fan of rx burning, so if I can manage grasses using that approach, I am more than game. The only thing is, we live in a weird area where we didnt even have one burning day this spring. Most springs we have one or two good days to burn followed by red flag days so it's tricky.

I've been treating many grass areas with clethodim, but haven't seen any affect yet (< 1 week in). I'm trying to pick my battles, but right now I feel like thistle is going to take over if I keep trying to tear out the bad stuff and replace with the good stuff.

Rant over. What would you guys do? I want to eliminate thistle and cool season grasses and add natives back to landscape. Shouldn't be this difficult right? Mother nature is always working against me as well so that's been a treat.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Not sure I have an answer to your greater problem but it shouldn't be too hard to mat/mulch/tube some oak seedlings. Depending on the herbicide, the tube should help protect the seedling from your spraying.

 

[homerj1]

I've been treating many grass areas with clethodim, but haven't seen any affect yet

Cleth always seems to take forever. 2 weeks minimum in my experience to see grasses dying. Also, if you're spraying grasses when they're much more than 8-10" tall you can expect less than awesome results. Spraying grasses in spring when they're 3-6" tall, and then again in another 2 weeks has provided excellent results for me.

 

[nwmn]

Cleth always seems to take forever. 2 weeks minimum in my experience to see grasses dying. Also, if you're spraying grasses when they're much more than 8-10" tall you can expect less than awesome results. Spraying grasses in spring when they're 3-6" tall, and then again in another 2 weeks has provided excellent results for me.

For sure. At the stage I should have been spraying, I couldn't get around with all the rain we were getting without getting stuck and I broke my ankle setting me back even more. It's been an awful year overall for habitat work up here lol.

Do you see permanent effects once you knock them back enough? What typically fills in for you?

 

[nwmn]

Not sure I have an answer to your greater problem but it shouldn't be too hard to mat/mulch/tube some oak seedlings. Depending on the herbicide, the tube should help protect the seedling from your spraying.

Was hoping to treat with clethodim but I feel that I am a little late to the party so I'm considering going with a gly application and working the ground back to dirt and then maybe direct seeding oaks this fall after multiple herbicide applications this fall as well. When gly was $10/gallon it was a little easier to do these things lol.

 

[homerj1]

For sure. At the stage I should have been spraying, I couldn't get around with all the rain we were getting without getting stuck and I broke my ankle setting me back even more. It's been an awful year overall for habitat work up here lol.

Do you see permanent effects once you knock them back enough? What typically fills in for you?

Depends on where I spray. Thistles, nettles, other cool season grasses, blackberries, various weeds, clover, lots of stuff. It is an ongoing battle.

 

[PatinPA]

Was hoping to treat with clethodim but I feel that I am a little late to the party so I'm considering going with a gly application and working the ground back to dirt and then maybe direct seeding oaks this fall after multiple herbicide applications this fall as well. When gly was $10/gallon it was a little easier to do these things lol.

Can you mow it then wait a week or so for it to get some newer growth then hit it with the Cleth. No expert but I think newer growth is more susceptible to being killed off.

 

[nwmn]

Depends on where I spray. Thistles, nettles, other cool season grasses, blackberries, various weeds, clover, lots of stuff. It is an ongoing battle.

I'm not the only one that rids of one pest to be inundated with another lol.

What's an ideal landscape? What does a forb dominated landscape look like when cool season grasses are prevalent in other areas?

 

[nwmn]

Can you mow it then wait a week or so for it to get some newer growth then hit it with the Cleth. No expert but I think newer growth is more susceptible to being killed off.

I'm torn on mowing anything right now. Last weekend I ran over a fawn and broke it's hip :(

I'm thinking possibly this weekend the fawns should be better suited to escaping vs hiding?

That's a good idea. I'll see if I can source a mower and get on it.

 

[b116757]

Where you cut the aspens they will send up sprouts and have lots of aspen regen.

 

[Turkey Creek]

Most wildflower plantings it is recommended especially with perennial varieties to mow that 1st year or 2 to keep weed pressure down. Spraying anything other than Clethodim in a wildflower/forbs patch is going to give you a lot of "friendly fire" casualties.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Where you cut the aspens they will send up sprouts and have lots of aspen regen.

Yeah, that aspen regen is unlikely to have issues getting out competed.

 

[yoderjac]

There are some good threads on here about getting rid of fescue. I think they would apply well to most cool season grasses. If I were you I would pick an area to improve, whatever you can handle. It may take a season or two to get rid of the grasses. It may need a combination of herbicides and fire. I would consider smother type crops like buckwheat in the summer or even WR in the fall. Once you've got a WR crop growing, I would assess the weeds in the field. You may be surprised at what your seed bank holds. If you find you are dominated by cool season grasses or a noxious weed is dominating, I'd continue more focused weed control. If the weed mix looks fairly reasonable, I would mow the WR in the fall to get a volunteer crop. I'd do this for a number of years. Each year, the amount of WR you get should decrease a bit and more natives should begin to grow.

If you do decide you want to plant a pollinator mix, by then, your cool season grasses should be under control.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Bill]

Give that clethodim more time before giving up on it.

 

[Barndog56]

Thistle is a symptom of a calcium and manganese deficiency. Spread both according to soil test results, then mow when the thistle is in full bloom. That's when it's most vulnerable. Might take a couple attempts, but will eventually get rid of it.

 

[nwmn]

Where you cut the aspens they will send up sprouts and have lots of aspen regen.

I'm not worried about aspen getting competed, more worried about what else will come up with the aspen regen after sunlight finds its way to the soil. Hopefully the thistle didn't find its way into the woods like its so prevalent on the field edges

 

[sandbur]

I'm not worried about aspen getting competed, more worried about what else will come up with the aspen regen after sunlight finds its way to the soil. Hopefully the thistle didn't find its way into the woods like its so prevalent on the field edges

They say winter cuts of one aspen species leads to better regeneration.

Are you tackling too big of an area and getting overwhelmed? Start with a key small area.

I also suspect that spring flooding has brought a whole new crop of reed canary grass seeds. It is better than thistles in my opinion.

I would spray some key areas multiple times, then put down black plastic with willow cuttings stuck through it. Pick native willows and plant in the early spring.

Strips of willows and reed canary make good cover. Better yet if a few spruce can survive with them.

If you get periodic doses of reed canary grass seeds, it is hard to get anything else to dominate the landscape.


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[Angus 1895]

I focus on thistle, can’t stand it.

I spot spray it. 24D wait a few days Glyphosate.

Dont tolerate any going to seed. Strim the flowers off before u get seeds.

mow the grass, disc it, spray it softer a frost ( or not) spread clover, turnips, alfalfa. Harrow

 

[b116757]

I wage war on thistle also I really really try to never let it go to seed either.

 

[FarmerDan]

Those weeds are telling you stories about your soil structure and fertility. With some investigation and study you can fix some of the problem and adapt where you cannot. You can do all the mowing and chemical herbicide applications you want, but, as you've discovered, there's always some other weed well positioned to thrive in the current soil conditions. Change the condition!

Read this over and over. Give it time to sink-in. Then, think about how what's written here applies to you.
https://ocj.com/2021/09/reading-weeds-to-improve-soil-health/