Where to begin

[Chuck11]

Okay, so I'm going to start over with my thought process here. Brand new to land management, not brand new to planting and general growing and sowing practices. This property is located in western Kentucky. It is very lightly hunted one weekend in October and again from the 13-28th of November. I have a pretty diverse background in horticulture and gardening and quite a bit in the landscaping skillset too. I'm no stranger to hard work. I am a stranger to understanding deer and how to really set up the land for optimal use. I will preface that this land is a lease that we have a LOT of freedom to do what we want with. The only caveat is we cannot mess with the Ag land at all. A farmer has that lease and they grow corn or soybeans during the summer, and winter wheat during the fall/winter.
Second big factor, this property is overrun with does. In the south field, a month ago we counted 54 deer on the lower field eating at the underbrush. I did take a 12 point 3.5 year old buck in the North field in mid-December last year that was apparently determined to late rut off a cold front. The following pictures will show what I am working with. We want to begin some land management in the winter after hunting and into the spring and summer next year to begin improving the hunting property to better understand and hunt the deer movement. I live 8 hours from this property, but my dad lives about 20 minutes from it. I don't mind making the drive to do projects, but I have to have a pretty clear plan and purpose to the trips I do take.
The first picture shows what's here. The yellow trail is an existing 4 wheel trail that cuts through the bottoms. The blue is a creek bed that has water in it about half the year. The creek bed sits about 4-6 feet below grade at the bottoms.


The next picture shows observed deer travel that we have seen either from stands during the hunting seasons mentioned or on trail cameras. I have about 7 trail cameras at my disposal that I can move about the property, Three old school ones that are just SD card capable and not cellular. I have one cellular that is capable of just uploading still pictures. I have two cell cameras that are capable of uploading pictures and video. I didn't want to get more in the woods this year because time ran short and we were already cutting it close getting stands in the woods and getting back out a month before the season began. The purple arrows are morning movement, green is midday movement and white is night movement. Other than the Ag field, and a some acorns, there is no food source that is readily available on the property.



This is a 55 acre plot, and even though we have stands out and have had success hunting this, we would like to set this up to maximize it's potential. Even doing small things from year to year is fine. But you listen to guys like Jeff Sturgis and he says first and foremost food, and then other guys say bedding and travel corridors and others say hinge cuts and funnels and stand access. So my question is, where do you start? I don't want to make big changes right off the get, and you can't un-chainsaw a tree. You can always not replant food and move food plots, and I'm okay with mild expense. I'm not rich, but I've got a decent amount of expendable income. I'm just at a loss for where to begin, and open to discussion and suggestions on where you would start.
Bill has already made some good suggestions, and I appreciate the input and feedback. Feel free to copy the images and use whatever you can to draw on the map to illustrate exactly what you're talking about. I'd like to get a plan explored and try some things out so I can observe how they work on the land over the next season. No idea or question is too stupid in my opinion. Even things that you've done and failed and or done and had success with on your own land is good information. And if I ask what seems to be a stupid question, I'm not being ignorant. I'm just trying to understand why and how things are done. But I feel like I need to take about a dozen steps back from where my brain is and focus on small things and take things one step at a time.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

I checked out the other thread about this parcel...maybe I missed it, but what are the prevailing winds?

And you say that it gets hunted one weekend in October, and then again in November for a few weeks? Is that by you? Or are there others hunting it?

Finally, what is to the right (East?) in the picture? Is that swamp, or brushy fields?

 

[PatinPA]

First questions, as Natty said which way is your prevailing wind and where is your access from? Is it only the road or is it possible to cross other properties? Lastly, do you know where the primary bedding is located?

 

[Chuck11]

I checked out the other thread about this parcel...maybe I missed it, but what are the prevailing winds?

And you say that it gets hunted one weekend in October, and then again in November for a few weeks? Is that by you? Or are there others hunting it?

Finally, what is to the right (East?) in the picture? Is that swamp, or brushy fields?

The prevailing winds are usually from the north and generally blowing south to southeast. However, we do get shifts that happen fairly often where they blow north and generally northwest. But north/south winds are the most common.
The only people that ever hunt this land are myself and my father and one family friend. The hunt that we do in October is my sons' youth season two day hunt. And possibly one day during a two day muzzleloader season a week later.
The picture is oriented north/south for ease of description. The property to the northeast is all swamps and as you come south gradually becoming patches of ag and wetlands.
I should also mention that we only gun hunt this property, none of us currently bow hunt. Myself and my father have the equipment to bow hunt, but haven't in years due to time constraints.

 

[Chuck11]

First questions, as Natty said which way is your prevailing wind and where is your access from? Is it only the road or is it possible to cross other properties? Lastly, do you know where the primary bedding is located?

I will update a map for you and post where we generally access the property. It is only the road currently, the main neighbor who could help us with access is currently pretty hostile towards us. I am working to improve that, but so far no big moves on his part to be friendly.
I have guesses as to where primary bedding is. But I was really hoping to do some post season scouting to verify. I will mark those on the map as well and post as a reply.

 

[Chuck11]

The vehicles are our two main access points to the property and the red arrows are the directions we are currently moving to get into the property. The pins with the does and bucks are my best guesses as to where deer are currently bedding, but I desperately need to do more post season scouting to verify. I know there was a buck bed in the north where I marked it because there were scrapes and scat and rubs everywhere in that area and plenty of bedding spots where he laid down.
Off to the northeast I marked out in green the swamp area, the orange is lowlands and the yellow is either a neighboring food plot or an Ag field, I didn't want to trespass to try and get a clearer picture. The creek is a public right of way though, and we can access the creek bed.

 

[Bassattackr]

What do these interior areas look like? Can you put a small food plot in either / both?

North access would be for S wind(s). South access could be for N wind(s).. Stand locations don't have to be exact rather to best fit area / travel.

If both are fair game, perhaps then create a narrow corridor between the two plots with a (KILLER) stand at that pinch point. Many other good stand locations on this property also..

 

[Chuck11]

What do these interior areas look like? Can you put a small food plot in either / both?

North access would be for S wind(s). South access could be for N wind(s).. Stand locations don't have to be exact rather to best fit area / travel.

If both are fair game, perhaps then create a narrow corridor between the two plots with a (KILLER) stand at that pinch point. Many other good stand locations on this property also..

So that was my original thought. Seems like a great idea upon initial looking at it. Why not food plots there? Super easy access and they get a significant amount of sunlight. But Bill brought up that if you create food plots here, the does would likely start bedding in there. Here is an example of what I mean, and how I see his point in being valid.

If you did two small food plots, separated them by either grass or conifers of some type, you'd debatably have some separation you could hunt in differing wind conditions, but if the does start bedding in the area (represented by the purple outlined sections) there's no way you can access those stands without blowing does out every time you try to get into the area. (the access routes indicated by the lime green arrows) The southern stand being the exception, you could hunt that pretty reliably in a south wind as long as you knew the deer weren't approaching from the south.

This would also kill the opportunity to put a stand in the pinch point to the center indicated by the blue stands, as well as hunting the northern most point of the peninsula there. If does are bedding in there, you are gonna blow them out trying to skirt the east treeline. The orange indicates where I believe the deer would travel to/from the food location.

The red box at the bottom is where I indicated a non plantable area due to that being an access point for farm equipment.

This is just an opinion of mine, if you could make that area where does would not want to bed, but exclusively use it as a food source, I think it would be a great idea. But I am inexperienced and I may be thinking about this completely incorrectly. Feel free to correct the errors in my thinking.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

I think you nailed it in your last last sentence here in this thread...

. But I feel like I need to take about a dozen steps back from where my brain is and focus on small things and take things one step at a time.

Take a step back and slow your brain down. Enjoy the land, make great memories, and continue to have success as you get to know it and really take the time to understand how the deer move on it before you do a thing. That may take years. Look before you leap. It's easy to get a little "Sturgis Drunk" when you watch all his vids and every other dude out there posting content. That land, as is, most hunters would give their left testicle to have...a 55 acre parcel with soybean and corn fields, rye in the winter, and plenty of wooded land for cover.

With that said, it's definitely easy to see your excitement about maximizing the potential of that parcel. I guess you need to figure out what your management goal is? To put meat in the freezer? Sounds like it's a classic doe factory...that shouldn't be tough. To enjoy high quality hunts with your friends and family? Sounds like that's already happening. To kill a monster buck every year? That's the challenge.

I always hesitate to make any recommendations or suggestions based on a few pics. Nobody knows the land like you, and there are so many variables to consider when coming up with a plan. Besides my recommendation to go slow (which it sounds like you already kind were thinking) I don't think I'd do too much for a few years other than scout, hunt, and learn. There's nothing like experience to shape clarity. If it were me, based on your winds and the lay-out I think I'd sacrifice the island in the middle for access routes to tree stands on the little wooded peninsula (A) and the pinch point in the ag field (B). I think I'd also use your southern entrance to access a stand in that inside corner at C.

Looking forward to seeing how your season goes this year!

 

[Bassattackr]

So that was my original thought. Seems like a great idea upon initial looking at it. Why not food plots there? Super easy access

View attachment 37889

Curious - What makes you think does aren't already bedding in the purple areas you note? Especially the largest block to the east.. FYI - Being there is Ag all around them, they very well could be. IMO - You answered your own question.. (bold text). Access should be your #1 priority when considering stand location.

- I would think access to the stand on the northeast finger (blue blind) would be very tough going in and out from either point of access. You're going to walk by quite a few deer to get there.. May even be a good buck bedding point during a S wind.

- Adding a "divider" of some sort between the two plot areas wouldn't change the wind for accessing or hunting those areas.. IMO.

- Don't hesitate to use observation sits a little further off the perceived areas of movement to hone in on good stand locations.

Good luck!

 

[Chuck11]

I think you nailed it in your last last sentence here in this thread...



Take a step back and slow your brain down. Enjoy the land, make great memories, and continue to have success as you get to know it and really take the time to understand how the deer move on it before you do a thing. That may take years. Look before you leap. It's easy to get a little "Sturgis Drunk" when you watch all his vids and every other dude out there posting content. That land, as is, most hunters would give their left testicle to have...a 55 acre parcel with soybean and corn fields, rye in the winter, and plenty of wooded land for cover.

With that said, it's definitely easy to see your excitement about maximizing the potential of that parcel. I guess you need to figure out what your management goal is? To put meat in the freezer? Sounds like it's a classic doe factory...that shouldn't be tough. To enjoy high quality hunts with your friends and family? Sounds like that's already happening. To kill a monster buck every year? That's the challenge.

I always hesitate to make any recommendations or suggestions based on a few pics. Nobody knows the land like you, and there are so many variables to consider when coming up with a plan. Besides my recommendation to go slow (which it sounds like you already kind were thinking) I don't think I'd do too much for a few years other than scout, hunt, and learn. There's nothing like experience to shape clarity. If it were me, based on your winds and the lay-out I think I'd sacrifice the island in the middle for access routes to tree stands on the little wooded peninsula (A) and the pinch point in the ag field (B). I think I'd also use your southern entrance to access a stand in that inside corner at C.

Looking forward to seeing how your season goes this year!

Thanks for the thinking points. I think as far as management goal goes, definintely looking to put meat in the freezer. I think we'd all like opportunities to kill big bucks, but we're not exactly trophy hunters, having a few good healthy bucks on the property is probably more fun to hunt for us than trying to get that one monster buck to come to our neck of the woods. That being said, if over the years we can build the property to attract those animals naturally anyways through keeping sanctuaries exactly that and making the property overall attractive to deer during hunting seasons, why would you not try to achieve that if it's possible?

The biggest thing I'd like to do is not get in a huge hurry. I would like to find an optimal spot for a single food plot to work on next year, if for no other reason that getting the experience of making mistakes with it. Being the first year doing it, I know there will be plenty.

I like the thought of not really messing with the center island for at least another year, other than to maybe clear a small access trail through it if need be for ease of access. I will definitely be setting up a few trail cams around that island to see what the activity there looks like for normal usage to deer.

We already have plans to set up a two man leaner stand in that corner of C, so one of our projects next year will likely be to create an access path behind it and some light cover around it to hide our access better, as that corner is really open and visible along the field.

Thanks! I will be sure to update the thread with what the season yields this year.

 

[Bassattackr]

Chuck - Check out the Chasing Giants podcast, your property sets up similar to Terry Peer's (and mine also FWIW).

Ridge or bottom fields and draws / hollows off of or parallel to them.. IE Hill Country

 

[Chuck11]

Curious - What makes you think does aren't already bedding in the purple areas you note? Especially the largest block to the east.. FYI - Being there is Ag all around them, they very well could be. IMO - You answered your own question.. (bold text). Access should be your #1 priority when considering stand location.

- I would think access to the stand on the northeast finger (blue blind) would be very tough going in and out from either point of access. You're going to walk by quite a few deer to get there.. May even be a good buck bedding point during a S wind.

- Adding a "divider" of some sort between the two plot areas wouldn't change the wind for accessing or hunting those areas.. IMO.

- Don't hesitate to use observation sits a little further off the perceived areas of movement to hone in on good stand locations.

Good luck!

Also a good point. They could be. Re-reading your post you did initially say "what do these interior areas look like?" and my initial answer to that should be, I don't know. Other than knowing that it is fairly open in the center. It bears more investigation as to how to deer are using it. I can say from observation in stands last year I never saw a deer head to it or come out of it either morning or evening. But that doesn't mean they aren't using it. I think I'm going to make that much more of a priority the coming post-season.

- You're probably more on-point than I realize, we have no stands or blinds in that location currently, but it's a location I've had my eye on. Likely that I'll observe the area with cellcams and scouting before trying to develop that section into a huntable location.

- I wasn't worried so much with wind as visibility and usability to the deer, the separation may lead to less social stress on the deer using it and encourage more patternable behavior from smaller doe families that consistently use it. But perhaps my thinking is a little off there.

- I hadn't really thought about it, but that's not a bad idea either. I'd like to mark a tree or two I think would be a good spot and then trail cam it and see what kind of activity happens there. Might help formulate my spring and summer goals for that area next year.

Thanks for the talking points. I really appreciate it. Gives me things to look into and think about.

 

[Chuck11]

Chuck - Check out the Chasing Giants podcast, your property sets up similar to Terry Peer's (and mine also FWIW).

Ridge or bottom fields and draws / hollows off of or parallel to them.. IE Hill Country

Will be looking it up today! Thanks for the recommendation!

 

[Bassattackr]

Don't underestimate the value of an observation sits in person, they always have told me much more than a trail camera ever did!

Looks like a fantastic property, have fun!

 

[PatinPA]

It looks like that ATV trail in the creek bottom would be an ideal cruising rut stand. If you could sneak up that creek bottom on a north wind.

 

[Chuck11]

Don't underestimate the value of an observation sits in person, they always have told me much more than a trail camera ever did!

Looks like a fantastic property, have fun!

I may makes plans the upcoming late summer/early fall to do exactly that. If for no other reason than to sit in the woods and take pictures of the property and see what moves around me. It would be profitable to see if deer are skirting areas for a specific reason or alerted in ways that the cameras aren't picking up.

 

[Chuck11]

It looks like that ATV trail in the creek bottom would be an ideal cruising rut stand. If you could sneak up that creek bottom on a north wind.

I'll find out this year, I have a single stand down there that we got up over a month ago now for the sole purpose of sitting in once or twice, as peak rut generally happens during our November hunt. I will adjust next year based on what I observe this year.

 

[Tree Spud]

Okay, so I'm going to start over with my thought process here. Brand new to land management, not brand new to planting and general growing and sowing practices. This property is located in western Kentucky. It is very lightly hunted one weekend in October and again from the 13-28th of November. I have a pretty diverse background in horticulture and gardening and quite a bit in the landscaping skillset too. I'm no stranger to hard work. I am a stranger to understanding deer and how to really set up the land for optimal use. I will preface that this land is a lease that we have a LOT of freedom to do what we want with. The only caveat is we cannot mess with the Ag land at all. A farmer has that lease and they grow corn or soybeans during the summer, and winter wheat during the fall/winter.
Second big factor, this property is overrun with does. In the south field, a month ago we counted 54 deer on the lower field eating at the underbrush. I did take a 12 point 3.5 year old buck in the North field in mid-December last year that was apparently determined to late rut off a cold front. The following pictures will show what I am working with. We want to begin some land management in the winter after hunting and into the spring and summer next year to begin improving the hunting property to better understand and hunt the deer movement. I live 8 hours from this property, but my dad lives about 20 minutes from it. I don't mind making the drive to do projects, but I have to have a pretty clear plan and purpose to the trips I do take.
The first picture shows what's here. The yellow trail is an existing 4 wheel trail that cuts through the bottoms. The blue is a creek bed that has water in it about half the year. The creek bed sits about 4-6 feet below grade at the bottoms.


The next picture shows observed deer travel that we have seen either from stands during the hunting seasons mentioned or on trail cameras. I have about 7 trail cameras at my disposal that I can move about the property, Three old school ones that are just SD card capable and not cellular. I have one cellular that is capable of just uploading still pictures. I have two cell cameras that are capable of uploading pictures and video. I didn't want to get more in the woods this year because time ran short and we were already cutting it close getting stands in the woods and getting back out a month before the season began. The purple arrows are morning movement, green is midday movement and white is night movement. Other than the Ag field, and a some acorns, there is no food source that is readily available on the property.


This is a 55 acre plot, and even though we have stands out and have had success hunting this, we would like to set this up to maximize it's potential. Even doing small things from year to year is fine. But you listen to guys like Jeff Sturgis and he says first and foremost food, and then other guys say bedding and travel corridors and others say hinge cuts and funnels and stand access. So my question is, where do you start? I don't want to make big changes right off the get, and you can't un-chainsaw a tree. You can always not replant food and move food plots, and I'm okay with mild expense. I'm not rich, but I've got a decent amount of expendable income. I'm just at a loss for where to begin, and open to discussion and suggestions on where you would start.
Bill has already made some good suggestions, and I appreciate the input and feedback. Feel free to copy the images and use whatever you can to draw on the map to illustrate exactly what you're talking about. I'd like to get a plan explored and try some things out so I can observe how they work on the land over the next season. No idea or question is too stupid in my opinion. Even things that you've done and failed and or done and had success with on your own land is good information. And if I ask what seems to be a stupid question, I'm not being ignorant. I'm just trying to understand why and how things are done. But I feel like I need to take about a dozen steps back from where my brain is and focus on small things and take things one step at a time.

IMHO you are over thinking and getting caught up believing the hype of the deer profiteers (YouTube, Facebook, etc. experts) ... those who tell you that you cannot succeed without changing your property.

From your posts I have learned the following on your property...
- You have plenty of does, in fact almost too many.
- You have plenty of year round "free" food - soy beans/corn/winter wheat.
- You have great transition, pinch points/funnels, and transitional cover to allow for concealed access to stands. Your "timber" travel corridors look to have some killer ambush points.
- You have water.
- A good mix of upland forest & lowland/marsh.
- Sanctuary & bedding with the neighboring swamp/lowland.
- You have already harvested a nice buck.
- Good road and property boundary screening.
- Favorable wind conditions for transition from bedding to food & for stand access.

I am trying to understand what you think you are missing and why you need to make changes to the property? I think anything you do may have a greater chance of screwing up the property rather than improving it.

My suggestions ...
- Chill out and relax man, you have a really nice property with all the attributes people strive for
- As mentioned above, spend more time learning your property by winter & spring scouting and sitting in the stands.
- Reduce the doe population when you can. High does counts can limit buck movement because there is less competition for each doe.
- Mature bucks hate intrusion & disruption ... the less you manipulate the property the more comfortable a mature buck will feel.
- Spend more time learning how to hunt. Without knowing more, or knowing you, your biggest limiting factor to optimizing your chances for mature buck opportunities might be deer hunting skills.
Check out the link below to Dan Infalt's site. He is a very successful Wisconsin hunter and has almost exclusively hunted public lands. His vidoes on Hunting Swamp Bucks and Farmland Bucks are
excellent resources.
The Hunting Beast - Dan Infalt

Most important, stop stressin' and enjoy the hunt!

 

[Chuck11]

IMHO you are over thinking and getting caught up believing the hype of the deer profiteers (YouTube, Facebook, etc. experts) ... those who tell you that you cannot succeed without changing your property.

From your posts I have learned the following on your property...
- You have plenty of does, in fact almost too many.
- You have plenty of year round "free" food - soy beans/winter wheat.
- You have great transition, pinch points/funnels, and transitional cover to allow for concealed access to stands. Your "timber" travel corridors look to have some killer ambush points.
- You have water.
- A good mix of upland forest & lowland/marsh.
- Sanctuary & bedding with the neighboring swamp/lowland.
- You have already harvested a nice buck.
- Good road and property boundary screening.
- Favorable wind conditions for transition from bedding to food & for stand access.

I am trying to understand what you think you are missing and why you need to make changes to the property? I think anything you do may have a greater chance of screwing up the property rather than improving it.

My suggestions ...
- Chill out and relax man, you have a really nice property with all the attributes people strive for
- As mentioned above, spend more time learning your property by winter & spring scouting and sitting in the stands.
- Reduce the doe population when you can. High does counts can limit buck movement because there is less competition for each doe.
- Mature bucks hate intrusion & disruption ... the less you manipulate the property
- Spend more time learning how to hunt. Without knowing more, or knowing you, your biggest limiting factor to optimizing your chances for mature buck opportunities might be deer hunting skills.
Check out the link below to Dan Infalt's site. He is a very successful Wisconsin hunter and has almost exclusively hunted public lands. His vidoes on Hunting Swamp Bucks and Farmland Bucks are
excellent resources.
The Hunting Beast - Dan Infalt

Most important, stop stressin' and enjoy the hunt!

Thanks man. Sometimes it does take perspective to see the forest for the trees. I do intend to take it slow and we are super excited to have this opportunity to hunt this ground. I am trying to be a better hunter and develop my skillset. It's something I am passionate about and really love. I appreciate the good feedback and advice.

On that topic, both my dad and I are planning on taking at least 2 does apiece this year, maybe 3 if we get a chance to. They are overpopulated, and we might have to do that for a few seasons to really thin out the amount that are around. So duly noted on the suggestion there.