Where to begin

[TreeDaddy]

IMHO you are over thinking and getting caught up believing the hype of the deer profiteers (YouTube, Facebook, etc. experts) ... those who tell you that you cannot succeed without changing your property.

From your posts I have learned the following on your property...
- You have plenty of does, in fact almost too many.
- You have plenty of year round "free" food - soy beans/winter wheat.
- You have great transition, pinch points/funnels, and transitional cover to allow for concealed access to stands. Your "timber" travel corridors look to have some killer ambush points.
- You have water.
- A good mix of upland forest & lowland/marsh.
- Sanctuary & bedding with the neighboring swamp/lowland.
- You have already harvested a nice buck.
- Good road and property boundary screening.
- Favorable wind conditions for transition from bedding to food & for stand access.

I am trying to understand what you think you are missing and why you need to make changes to the property? I think anything you do may have a greater chance of screwing up the property rather than improving it.

My suggestions ...
- Chill out and relax man, you have a really nice property with all the attributes people strive for
- As mentioned above, spend more time learning your property by winter & spring scouting and sitting in the stands.
- Reduce the doe population when you can. High does counts can limit buck movement because there is less competition for each doe.
- Mature bucks hate intrusion & disruption ... the less you manipulate the property
- Spend more time learning how to hunt. Without knowing more, or knowing you, your biggest limiting factor to optimizing your chances for mature buck opportunities might be deer hunting skills.
Check out the link below to Dan Infalt's site. He is a very successful Wisconsin hunter and has almost exclusively hunted public lands. His vidoes on Hunting Swamp Bucks and Farmland Bucks are
excellent resources.
The Hunting Beast - Dan Infalt

Most important, stop stressin' and enjoy the hunt!

TreeSpud,

Jeff Sturgis,et al would hate you

They would charge $$$$$$$$$$ and in no way could they provide better counsel/advice

bill

 

[Bassattackr]

Sturgis... The clickbait queen.

 

[Chuck11]

TreeSpud,

Jeff Sturgis,et al would hate you

They would charge $$$$$$$$$$ and in no way could they provide better counsel/advice

bill

Hence the reason I am here. I started off watching him and the guys from seemorebucks, and I was overwhelmed and couldn't decipher what was necessary from unnecessary. They explain only enough of what they're doing to make you think you need to do it too. And I'm sure that they are bringing good info in some respect, but if you don't already have a good base of info, its not doing you much good. And if you do have the base of info, you likely don't need them in the first place.
I came here because it was recommended and I figured people would have more subtle information and advice, and would likely be more cautious and have experience that trumps the video hype. I like to take my time and understand a thing before I start into it. If I don't understand why I'm doing it, or what benefit it's "supposedly" adding, I don't want to do it until I do understand it.

 

[Chuck11]

Chuck - Check out the Chasing Giants podcast, your property sets up similar to Terry Peer's (and mine also FWIW).

Ridge or bottom fields and draws / hollows off of or parallel to them.. IE Hill Country

Also, is the podcast audio only? I couldn't find anything that seemed to be videos of Terry Peer, but I listened to the audio of the first episode. I like their ideas so far. And I like their demeanor.

 

[Chuck11]

Also for anyone curious, this is the deer I took off the property last year


He's got some broken tines, but he's unique and I liked his look.

 

[Bassattackr]

Also, is the podcast audio only? I couldn't find anything that seemed to be videos of Terry Peer, but I listened to the audio of the first episode. I like their ideas so far. And I like their demeanor.

Most of them are audio only. There are a few "how to" videos on their Youtube however. They are worth watching.

 

[Tree Spud]

Also for anyone curious, this is the deer I took off the property last year
View attachment 37893
View attachment 37894
He's got some broken tines, but he's unique and I liked his look.

Nice buck!

 

[Troubles Trees]

Also for anyone curious, this is the deer I took off the property last year
View attachment 37893
View attachment 37894
He's got some broken tines, but he's unique and I liked his look.

Atta boy! Nothing wrong with that buck friend.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

Thanks for the thinking points. I think as far as management goal goes, definintely looking to put meat in the freezer. I think we'd all like opportunities to kill big bucks, but we're not exactly trophy hunters, having a few good healthy bucks on the property is probably more fun to hunt for us than trying to get that one monster buck to come to our neck of the woods. That being said, if over the years we can build the property to attract those animals naturally anyways through keeping sanctuaries exactly that and making the property overall attractive to deer during hunting seasons, why would you not try to achieve that if it's possible?

The biggest thing I'd like to do is not get in a huge hurry. I would like to find an optimal spot for a single food plot to work on next year, if for no other reason that getting the experience of making mistakes with it. Being the first year doing it, I know there will be plenty.

I like the thought of not really messing with the center island for at least another year, other than to maybe clear a small access trail through it if need be for ease of access. I will definitely be setting up a few trail cams around that island to see what the activity there looks like for normal usage to deer.

We already have plans to set up a two man leaner stand in that corner of C, so one of our projects next year will likely be to create an access path behind it and some light cover around it to hide our access better, as that corner is really open and visible along the field.

Thanks! I will be sure to update the thread with what the season yields this year.

Great ideas and great thoughts.

Seems like you've already got food plots courtesy the farmer. I don't know if I would be putting MORE food in the middle of existing food. They are a lot of work. Just to clear the land in that central wooded island to establish them will be a ton of work. Living 8 hours away is going to make it a real drag for you. If it were me, I'd spend my valuable time making the wooded land to the east of all the ag fields the best bedding habitat possible. Establish clear lines of predictable movement (bedding to food) and then ambush the deer along those lines. You'll recognize that lingo from the Sturgis books and vids.

I get it. Half the fun is working the land and making improvements and seeing your hard work pay off. But like Tree Spud said, what you have already is a pretty darn fine spot that probably doesn't need too much, except boots on the ground and in the stand collecting data and making observations.

Nice buck too! If I could take a buck like that every year and a few does I'd be thrilled.

 

[westonwhitetail]

Are you primarily gun hunting the property? That would make a difference for recommended stand locations.

One area I like based off the maps is the NE area of the property, where the corner of that swamp, crp, and your woods come together. Use that creek bottom to walk in early morning. Its tougher to access but for a sit or two a year it might be worth it. You be able to cover deer coming in and out of the swamp/crp and be able to watch the hillside above you to the west.

 

[Chuck11]

Great ideas and great thoughts.

Seems like you've already got food plots courtesy the farmer. I don't know if I would be putting MORE food in the middle of existing food. They are a lot of work. Just to clear the land in that central wooded island to establish them will be a ton of work. Living 8 hours away is going to make it a real drag for you. If it were me, I'd spend my valuable time making the wooded land to the east of all the ag fields the best bedding habitat possible. Establish clear lines of predictable movement (bedding to food) and then ambush the deer along those lines. You'll recognize that lingo from the Sturgis books and vids.

I get it. Half the fun is working the land and making improvements and seeing your hard work pay off. But like Tree Spud said, what you have already is a pretty darn fine spot that probably doesn't need too much, except boots on the ground and in the stand collecting data and making observations.

Nice buck too! If I could take a buck like that every year and a few does I'd be thrilled.

Thank you,
I think this next year I'm going to spend a lot of time boots on the ground after hunting season really understanding how the deer use the land. I'd like to scout these potential areas marked on the map in orange extensively and use a bunch of trail cams in there, just to see and verify how the deer use these areas for travel, bedding, etc. I won't be able to make any determination on how to shape movement or create funnels if I don't know how they are already using it.
The orange stands are stands we will hunt this year, and I have a climber if I need to be a little mobile. The red stands are areas I'm interested in putting stands, but I'd like to really get a handle on how they use the areas. The area in purple I want to scout at the end of the season, and then I'll likely never step foot in that area again while I'm on the property. If that's real solid bedding in there, I want it to stay untouched, and there will be areas of the woods to the east we'll likely scout and then leave as sanctuary as well, perhaps only clearing a trail starting off and then never stepping foot on it again. I want to do the minimum possible while maximizing the potential. I'll likely take a lot of pictures for discussion and to give more "eyes on"
I'd really like to clear a path through the Southeast for access to the creek bed, and again one northeast for access back to a lane where I find a buck bedding area or a highly traveled area. That northeast stand would only be hunted one or two hunts a year. (this is marked in red)
We want to move that southernmost stand as well, but want to do more work scouting and observing before we move it anywhere.
Just some thoughts, really scouting and watching are going to be the game plan this year, along with some minor stand replacement and lane establishment.

Solid advice, and I appreciate everyone's input. Really, you guys are already helping me focus on what's important and doing the research first.

 

[Chuck11]

Are you primarily gun hunting the property? That would make a difference for recommended stand locations.

One area I like based off the maps is the NE area of the property, where the corner of that swamp, crp, and your woods come together. Use that creek bottom to walk in early morning. Its tougher to access but for a sit or two a year it might be worth it. You be able to cover deer coming in and out of the swamp/crp and be able to watch the hillside above you to the west.

See the above map that I just put on that post. Also yes, this property is 100% only gun hunted. Seems like we thought the same thing. I like the area for a hunt or two a year as well. Seems like the creek bottom would be the surest access.

 

[Tree Spud]

Hence the reason I am here. I started off watching him and the guys from seemorebucks, and I was overwhelmed and couldn't decipher what was necessary from unnecessary. They explain only enough of what they're doing to make you think you need to do it too. And I'm sure that they are bringing good info in some respect, but if you don't already have a good base of info, its not doing you much good. And if you do have the base of info, you likely don't need them in the first place.
I came here because it was recommended and I figured people would have more subtle information and advice, and would likely be more cautious and have experience that trumps the video hype. I like to take my time and understand a thing before I start into it. If I don't understand why I'm doing it, or what benefit it's "supposedly" adding, I don't want to do it until I do understand it.

That's exactly their goal, to create doubt in your mind about your property that somehow you are lacking something, and to get you to think that there is some Holy Grail solution ... as long as you pay them. That's why Sturgis is so funny. He wouldn't talk to me ahead of time, but will fly and in a couple hours will give expert advice on a property he has never walked, scouted, or hunted. That was a red flag for me.

Don't get me wrong, there are some legitimate folks out there with good thoughts and advice such as Steve Bartylla who is now on FB. I have been doing "habitat" work on my properties for over 25 years, have had some success, but also many learning curve mistakes. I have learned and increased my knowledge from many of the folks here on this site. Good folks, willing to share their experience at no charge.

 

[Chuck11]

That's exactly their goal, to create doubt in your mind about your property that somehow you are lacking something, and to get you to think that there is some Holy Grail solution ... as long as you pay them. That's why Sturgis is so funny. He wouldn't talk to me ahead of time, but will fly and in a couple hours will give expert advice on a property he has never walked, scouted, or hunted. That was a red flag for me.

Don't get me wrong, there are some legitimate folks out there with good thoughts and advice such as Steve Bartylla who is now on FB. I have been doing "habitat" work on my properties for over 25 years, have had some success, but also many learning curve mistakes. I have learned and increased my knowledge from many of the folks here on this site. Good folks, willing to share their experience at no charge.

Well sure, he gets paid either way that way. I'd like to build my knowledge of how all of this works over years. Wouldn't mind getting into property management myself and doing deer work full time. I love every aspect of it and I'm pretty darn good at making food grow and understanding soil biology. I definitely need to understand how deer work though. I enjoy hunting them, and I can't wait to get in the woods every year, but I'm only just starting to learn serious hunting. But if I was ever to get into property management, I would only charge a couple hundred dollars plus travel to get out to people and see what they see and walk property with them. You make enough money if they bring you on as the property manager anyhow. And if their "I just want to help you be better" claim was true, their actions would back that up as well.
I haven't looked at anything from Steve Bartylla before, I might look him up. I don't use FB or really any social media, so if he has articles or videos out there I'll check him out.

Either way, I know I have a lot to learn. And I'm not too proud to ask for advice or admit when I don't know what I don't know. I do like advice from those who have been there and done it. It's always going to be a little different, and every situation is unique. But experience is the great teacher.

 

[MadMadHoosier]

You are getting a lot of good advice and opinions, and I barely know enough to be dangerous, but wanted to add a few thoughts. I’ve tried to pattern my deer throughout the years, only to realize you have to keep the season in mind. What they do in the summer is quite different than the prerut, rut, and winter, etc. However, within each season, like prerut to prerut can have lots of similarities. And I have to remind myself each year during the prerut, to hunt the woods in the mornings, and the fields in the evenings - on my property anyway. Hunting fields in the morning has always been a waste of time. Once the rut starts, hunt where the does are. Have fun and good luck.

 

[Chuck11]

You are getting a lot of good advice and opinions, and I barely know enough to be dangerous, but wanted to add a few thoughts. I’ve tried to pattern my deer throughout the years, only to realize you have to keep the season in mind. What they do in the summer is quite different than the prerut, rut, and winter, etc. However, within each season, like prerut to prerut can have lots of similarities. And I have to remind myself each year during the prerut, to hunt the woods in the mornings, and the fields in the evenings - on my property anyway. Hunting fields in the morning has always been a waste of time. Once the rut starts, hunt where the does are. Have fun and good luck.

It actually took me forever to realize that hunting fields in the AM was a waste of time. I sat for 2 years on fields in the morning and wondered why I never saw anything.
Never wasted advice, and I will keep that in mind. Once I get cameras up, my plan is to leave them through the seasons and see how the patterns change. I'd like to see how deer act on the property through all the seasons. More information is better IMO.
Thanks friend!

 

[Troubles Trees]

A lot of good advice from some very wise woodsmen already. Understanding what resources like bedding, cover, water and food sources you already have, and what you don't, is as important as knowing how deer use your property.

I agree with others on the advice of food plots, it never hurts to throw in a small kill plot and plant something that isn't already near you, but it would take a lot of work to get there. My only advice would be to find what you don't have and work towards that. If you don't have thick cover, cut down some trees and create a thicket of something like dogwood that acts as cover and browse. If you only have native apples and oaks, plant unique foods to your area like Pears, Persimmon, Plumbs, Crab Apples and Chestnuts or Allegheny Chinquapins. We have the luxury now to plant soft mass trees that drop at later times so you can plant 3 different Pears that will drop from late summer until Christmas, or have them all drop around the same month from October until mid November while you hunt there.

Looks like a great spot bud, looking forward to how you progress!

 

[WeedyJ]

You would be surprised at what that center island can hold. I have an island of thicket, probably 1/2 acre, in the center of about 2 acres of plots. Trails cross that thicket heavily, and I took 2 does out of the group of 4 that were heading into it last year. Apparently not all does run at the crack of a rifle. The pigs will use it too. And just 100 yards away is a 5-8 acre woods/thicket they could reside in if they wanted as well, so it's not like it's some oasis.

 

[PatinPA]

I think Sturgis and some of those guys have some good things to say. It surely doesn't apply to everyone and it's not one size fits all. I watch the youtube videos of most of those guys, just trying to pick some things that I think would work for me. Like you I'm surrounded by commercial ag and I don't have room to put in a big food plot and I don't necessarily think it would work out all that well even if I did. I have made some smaller kill plots in strategic locations. All of them along known travel corridors. Really just ends up being a staging area before they get to the commercial fields around me. My newest plot has one sole purpose. There is a well used trail that runs just off the northeast corner of my property. It's right along that trail and will hopefully pull the deer off that trail enough that I can get a shot at them.

I really like the grapevine mock scrapes that Sturgis uses. I've had pretty good success with them attracting and concentrating deer movement. I am currently trying a horizontal rub that I saw on THP. Have not seen any action on that yet, but I haven't seen much deer movement at all lately. Also experimenting with different plants in each plot.

Best advice. Take your time. Start small until you get a good sense of how the deer use the property. Try new things that you think will work. Keep a journal of successes and mistakes. Have fun and enjoy it. Definitely addicting.

 

[Chuck11]

I think Sturgis and some of those guys have some good things to say. It surely doesn't apply to everyone and it's not one size fits all. I watch the youtube videos of most of those guys, just trying to pick some things that I think would work for me. Like you I'm surrounded by commercial ag and I don't have room to put in a big food plot and I don't necessarily think it would work out all that well even if I did. I have made some smaller kill plots in strategic locations. All of them along known travel corridors. Really just ends up being a staging area before they get to the commercial fields around me. My newest plot has one sole purpose. There is a well used trail that runs just off the northeast corner of my property. It's right along that trail and will hopefully pull the deer off that trail enough that I can get a shot at them.

I really like the grapevine mock scrapes that Sturgis uses. I've had pretty good success with them attracting and concentrating deer movement. I am currently trying a horizontal rub that I saw on THP. Have not seen any action on that yet, but I haven't seen much deer movement at all lately. Also experimenting with different plants in each plot.

Best advice. Take your time. Start small until you get a good sense of how the deer use the property. Try new things that you think will work. Keep a journal of successes and mistakes. Have fun and enjoy it. Definitely addicting.

I also like Sturgis' idea on the mock scrapes. Going to be setting up 2-3 of those too just to see how they are utilized. Will be an interesting experiment for sure.