Land/Wildlife Management Without Chemicals?

I took a half assed attempt at pumpkins this year. Finding the weeding to be a pain in the ass because of these viny sprawling things grow. Any tips or suggestions? Right now I'm just kind of weed wacking around the 20 or so plants I have in about a 1/4 acre.
At the most that's all I'm doing. Believe me, if you try to go chemical less everything will feel like a half assed attempt.bi thought I had it this year, in it the weeds said no you don't. Nice thing is as long as they get enough water pumpkins will still produce with all the weeds
 
At least we're having this conversation. That's a big win, and one we weren't having ten and fifteen years ago. From here, there's not going to be an easy answer for anyone. As much as I may try, there are just weeds and conditions I've never seen or even read about. I do feel for the guys in the south, they seem to have all sorts of unique challenges that didn't exist 50 years ago.

What this all boils down to, is a guy needs to know what he ultimately wants and work backwards from there. There are some absolute truths that we do have. Single species warm season annuals are going to require a ton of intervention in the form of iron, chemicals, and pellet fertilizer. In the north, those catalysts set the stage for a big follow up fight with what I call 'response weeds'. These are the weeds that were not there until we did something, nature responded, we don't like it, and now level 1 solutions (glyphosate) don't work.

I've been trying to get the thought process going out there of first understanding why something happened, or "what conditions do I have that gave me this?" The negative catalysts can be tillage, spraying, fallow, compaction, flooding, drought, low pH, high pH, mineral imbalance, and many combinations of those conditions. What complicates things further, is doing nothing, or doing the wrong thing in the second inning can also take things from bad to worse, and believe me, I've done it.

So I keep falling back to the most basic thing I need to know before I do anything: What is my goal? It is almost always "Put as many deer as possible, right here, at this time." Then, within the constraints that are unique to me, how do I make that happen and prevent as many avenues for failure as possible?

If I could grow beans, brassicas, and corn, I'd own the deer herd for three miles in any direction. The fact of the matter is, I'll never have enough plot space, equipment, electric fence, bear tags, and racoon traps to ever make that happen. So I keep working backwards until I solve for as many constraints as possible.
 
View attachment 80816

No other way I know how to deal with this mess than herbicide. IF you did not use herbicide, you would have to drain, wait three weeks and bush hog, then disk, then plant - and get half a crop due to weed competition. Forty acres in scattered areas would take a week to plant - plus a lot of equipment, labor, and fuel A drone, herbicide, and aerial seeding accomplished this in five hours, on mud and water.


For you guys who dont use chemicals, if the army worms are eating up 40 acres of millet - you just let them have it?
Haven't seen army worms... Don't know that herbicides would control them?
 
If I spray gly on my place, it will explode into a stand of canada thistle and horsetail. I can beat both of those, but it's ugly and it's not instantaneous. About the time I get those first two under control, then sedge grass comes roaring in. The only way I've gotten ahead of sedge for good is to increase oxygen and keep the competition high from the good things, and that means good pH, and spoon feeding gypsum to keep the legumes strong. Oxygen and calcium, in this instance, are permanently changing the underlying conditions. And then to keep it out, I have to maintain those new conditions. And even if all of those things happen, I may have some sedge, but I make peace with a little bit of it out there so long as it doesn't' start roaring across the plot and taking over.

I can slow down the thistle and horsetail if I wait until 60 days before first frost to spray and get a good stand of winter cereals in, but that's not perfect either. Right about the time I beat the sedge, then the quack and other cool season grasses start showing back up, and that brings me to where I am today. I've got new ideas I'm gonna try, and maybe, just maybe, even if I don't win, I can push out that 'need to spray' moment from every 4-5 years to maybe 6+. I'll decide if it worked or not based on whether the plot met my goal.
 
Haven't seen army worms... Don't know that herbicides would control them?
You know what would be funny? Spray some bear bait scent on those army worms and let the black bears deal with them.
 
If I spray gly on my place, it will explode into a stand of canada thistle and horsetail. I can beat both of those, but it's ugly and it's not instantaneous. About the time I get those first two under control, then sedge grass comes roaring in. The only way I've gotten ahead of sedge for good is to increase oxygen and keep the competition high from the good things, and that means good pH, and spoon feeding gypsum to keep the legumes strong. Oxygen and calcium, in this instance, are permanently changing the underlying conditions. And then to keep it out, I have to maintain those new conditions. And even if all of those things happen, I may have some sedge, but I make peace with a little bit of it out there so long as it doesn't' start roaring across the plot and taking over.

I can slow down the thistle and horsetail if I wait until 60 days before first frost to spray and get a good stand of winter cereals in, but that's not perfect either. Right about the time I beat the sedge, then the quack and other cool season grasses start showing back up, and that brings me to where I am today. I've got new ideas I'm gonna try, and maybe, just maybe, even if I don't win, I can push out that 'need to spray' moment from every 4-5 years to maybe 6+. I'll decide if it worked or not based on whether the plot met my goal.
Dumb question, have you tried cover crops? Or are you talking your overall property? Reason is I'm thinking about trying it this year just not sure what would be best. Thinking wr but not sure yet. The key in my mind is to deplete the seed bed. If you can keep the weeds from seeding as.much as possible you should be able to get ahead of them.
I'm gaining in some spots failing in others but I'm going to keep trying.
 
Bad in the Deep South. Georgia got hammered by them last year. Had buddies spraying all summer for them
 
I was going to spray out what I now believe is a sedge grass. It was so swampy that you couldn’t hay it.

There was some clover in it so I tried clethodim on it…….to no avail. Zero evidence of die off..

So I separated a bunch off to plant trees. The voles were bad and I was new at this deal so a lot of the trees died, and we couldn’t get it to drain.

I decided to put half of it back to cattle grazing. I caged the two surviving trees in heavy cages to test n cattle.Last year it was the first grass the cattle would eat. This year the cattle ate it down ……but not at first. Last winter it was the only place on the farm where elk came down and fed in the snow. The trees lived, the voles have declined in numbers dramatically. And we got it draining better from the neighbors waste water. I’m glad I didn’t kill that grass/ sedge now.

For some reason they like to eat it, trees grow in it, and thistle, knapweed, hounds tooth, henbane, etc etc does not grow there.
 
I'm really getting to the point of just mowing 3 times a year, frost seeding clover and then fall seeding clover and chickory. This way you have lush 4 inch fields of greens to eat. When all around you is bracken fern and you have almost 4 acres of edible field that seems the best and easiest choice to me. I really don't care to spend any more time than that any longer. As SD said you you could buy tractor and drill and have better foods but in the long run your really not gaining anything and the amount of work and expense rises for what? To shoot a deer? Those days are long gone. I ask you southern boys can you live with mowing 3 times a year? Ever tried that?
 
Heard of them but know little of them. What do they do?
Yeah it’s funny I never messed with them when I lived down there. The way I understand it is they get in a field and they just eat whatever is there from one end to the other. Think they are bad in hay fields?
 
Dumb question, have you tried cover crops? Or are you talking your overall property? Reason is I'm thinking about trying it this year just not sure what would be best. Thinking wr but not sure yet. The key in my mind is to deplete the seed bed. If you can keep the weeds from seeding as.much as possible you should be able to get ahead of them.
I'm gaining in some spots failing in others but I'm going to keep trying.
I'm just talking about plots. For our purposes, food plots and cover crops are the same thing. I've tried about every kind of cover crop there is with the exception of the really odd ones like african cabbage, mung beans, and popcorn. I even once ponied up for specialty silage corn (has very thin yellow shell. The yellow shell is indigestible) and old school cheap grazing corns (short stalk, early maturity, the kind that make small cobs, less kernel rows, and edible stalks).

There are some truths to be had in the question you're asking:

You cannot deplete the seed bank.

Even if you could in theory, you couldn't keep new seeds from blowing in, washing in, falling off muddy hooves/nappy hides/boots/tires, hitching a ride in dirty seed, or getting pooped out by wandering critters. All natural plants have resiliency mechanisms to ensure their survival. The most common is resistance to germination. To be understand this, consider the weakest seed out there, and it's manmade: The GMO soybean. In most cases, if you plant beans at the wrong time, they'll never come due to soil being cold, and they'll never survive the winters up north. Consider the other end of the spectrum, the thistle seed. Thistle seed can stay viable for 50 years or more.

The only way to beat them is to prevent the conditions that trigger their germination. Fallow periods (even short ones) cause massive changes in organic acids and fungal and bacterial populations in the soil that trigger the response to happen. That's the catalyst for calling them up from the grave.

I've gone so far to give as much advantage to certain weeds as possible on my land and they largely fail, because I failed to also provide the conditions for them to thrive. Two primary examples are common ragweed and canada thistle. You should have seen the cloud of thistle seed from that little patch I let go to maturity last year, it was everywhere and it was floating away like helium balloons all over my north plot. The original thistle patch is still there, but weakening compared to last year. Now, having created all that new seed, if I were to spray gly out there, I most certainly would summon the thistle crop to end all thistle crops.

I've also spread 3 pounds of ragweed seed on my property, and in every perennial plot I've started since 2021. That's 165,000 seeds onto fallowed dirt from heavy excavation work on around 2.5 acres of plot space. I bet you I haven't successfully germinated 50 ragweed plants in 5 seasons after all that seed. Now, I had a buddy that would disc and pack the shit out of his sandy loam soil, and the only thing he could grow is ragweed, and he never introduced a seed.

The other big truth is, well planned diverse perennial mixes outperform single species crops, period. When i say outperform, I mean in resilience to drought, flood, heat, cold, weed intrusion, bug problems, heavy grazing, etc.

Menoken farm did a cover crop demo plot in prepration for a field day years ago. They planted tiny squares of all sorts of cover crops, but they planted each one alone. When they were done installing the plot, they mixed all the remainders together, and planted one last square. Drought came through and killed every single species plot. What was amazing was, the square where they mixed them all together, none of them died. It's the synergy from those plants working together that enabled their survival. They were all producing something and exchanging nutrients and moisture with each other and the soil organisms, and it was all tied together by mycorhizal fungi.

Man I am wordy tonight.
 
Last edited:
I thought about this thread today. I was at work standing in a powerline right of way. Within 5’ of me was sericea, red clover, smartweed, various grasses and a mat of Japanese stiltgrass. What on earth can you do with that if that was on your hunting property, which it is on all of ours down here. You are nuking it until you can get something to grow you want and then putting it on a maintenance plan. There’s no amount of organic voodoo you can put on that mess
 
I'm just talking about plots. For our purposes, food plots and cover crops are the same thing. I've tried about every kind of cover crop there is with the exception of the really odd ones like african cabbage, mung beans, and popcorn. I even once ponied up for specialty silage corn (has very thin yellow shell. The yellow shell is indigestible) and old school cheap grazing corns (short stalk, early maturity, the kind that make small cobs, less kernel rows, and edible stalks).

There are some truths to be had in the question you're asking:

You cannot deplete the seed bank.

Even if you could in theory, you couldn't keep new seeds from blowing in, washing in, falling off muddy hooves/nappy hides/boots/tires, hitching a ride in dirty seed, or getting pooped out by wandering critters. All natural plants have resiliency mechanisms to ensure their survival. The most common is resistance to germination. To be understand this, consider the weakest seed out there, and it's manmade: The GMO soybean. In most cases, if you plant beans at the wrong time, they'll never come due to soil being cold, and they'll never survive the winters up north. Consider the other end of the spectrum, the thistle seed. Thistle seed can stay viable for 50 years or more.

The only way to beat them is to prevent the conditions that trigger their germination. Fallow periods (even short ones) cause massive changes in organic acids and fungal and bacterial populations in the soil that trigger the response to happen. That's the catalyst for calling them up from the grave.

I've gone so far to give as much advantage to certain weeds as possible on my land and they largely fail, because I failed to also provide the conditions for them to thrive. Two primary examples are common ragweed and canada thistle. You should have seen the cloud of thistle seed from that little patch I let go to maturity last year, it was everywhere and it was floating away like helium balloons all over my north plot. The original thistle patch is still there, but weakening compared to last year. Now, having created all that new seed, if I were to spray gly out there, I most certainly would summon the thistle crop to end all thistle crops.

I've also spread 3 pounds of ragweed seed on my property, and in every perennial plot I've started since 2021. That's 165,000 seeds onto fallowed dirt from heavy excavation work on around 2.5 acres of plot space. I bet you I haven't successfully germinated 50 ragweed plants in 5 seasons after all that seed. Now, I had a buddy that would disc and pack the shit out of his sandy loam soil, and the only thing he could grow is ragweed, and he never introduced a seed.

The other big truth is, well planned diverse perennial mixes outperform single species crops, period. When i say outperform, I mean in resilience to drought, flood, heat, cold, weed intrusion, bug problems, heavy grazing, etc.

Menoken farm did a cover crop demo plot in prepration for a field day years ago. They planted tiny squares of all sorts of cover crops, but they planted each one alone. When they were done installing the plot, they mixed all the remainders together, and planted one last square. Drought came through and killed every single species plot. What was amazing was, the square where they mixed them all together, none of them died. It's the synergy from those plants working together that enabled their survival. They were all producing something and exchanging nutrients and moisture with each other and the soil organisms, and it was all tied together by mycorhizal fungi.

Man I am wordy tonight.
Wordy, but I like it!! Lol
 
I'm just talking about plots. For our purposes, food plots and cover crops are the same thing. I've tried about every kind of cover crop there is with the exception of the really odd ones like african cabbage, mung beans, and popcorn. I even once ponied up for specialty silage corn (has very thin yellow shell. The yellow shell is indigestible) and old school cheap grazing corns (short stalk, early maturity, the kind that make small cobs, less kernel rows, and edible stalks).

There are some truths to be had in the question you're asking:

You cannot deplete the seed bank.

Even if you could in theory, you couldn't keep new seeds from blowing in, washing in, falling off muddy hooves/nappy hides/boots/tires, hitching a ride in dirty seed, or getting pooped out by wandering critters. All natural plants have resiliency mechanisms to ensure their survival. The most common is resistance to germination. To be understand this, consider the weakest seed out there, and it's manmade: The GMO soybean. In most cases, if you plant beans at the wrong time, they'll never come due to soil being cold, and they'll never survive the winters up north. Consider the other end of the spectrum, the thistle seed. Thistle seed can stay viable for 50 years or more.

The only way to beat them is to prevent the conditions that trigger their germination. Fallow periods (even short ones) cause massive changes in organic acids and fungal and bacterial populations in the soil that trigger the response to happen. That's the catalyst for calling them up from the grave.

I've gone so far to give as much advantage to certain weeds as possible on my land and they largely fail, because I failed to also provide the conditions for them to thrive. Two primary examples are common ragweed and canada thistle. You should have seen the cloud of thistle seed from that little patch I let go to maturity last year, it was everywhere and it was floating away like helium balloons all over my north plot. The original thistle patch is still there, but weakening compared to last year. Now, having created all that new seed, if I were to spray gly out there, I most certainly would summon the thistle crop to end all thistle crops.

I've also spread 3 pounds of ragweed seed on my property, and in every perennial plot I've started since 2021. That's 165,000 seeds onto fallowed dirt from heavy excavation work on around 2.5 acres of plot space. I bet you I haven't successfully germinated 50 ragweed plants in 5 seasons after all that seed. Now, I had a buddy that would disc and pack the shit out of his sandy loam soil, and the only thing he could grow is ragweed, and he never introduced a seed.

The other big truth is, well planned diverse perennial mixes outperform single species crops, period. When i say outperform, I mean in resilience to drought, flood, heat, cold, weed intrusion, bug problems, heavy grazing, etc.

Menoken farm did a cover crop demo plot in prepration for a field day years ago. They planted tiny squares of all sorts of cover crops, but they planted each one alone. When they were done installing the plot, they mixed all the remainders together, and planted one last square. Drought came through and killed every single species plot. What was amazing was, the square where they mixed them all together, none of them died. It's the synergy from those plants working together that enabled their survival. They were all producing something and exchanging nutrients and moisture with each other and the soil organisms, and it was all tied together by mycorhizal fungi.

Man I am wordy tonight.
So , what I'm seeing is my best bet would be to mix a bunch of cover type crops together to get the best results.
For the seed beds yes I understand about seeds blowing in and the longevity of viability of some weed seeds, my goal is to.limit weeds not eliminate, that would be unattainable
But if I can limit the weeds to just what's blowing in and get to the point where I'm not disturbing the soil bed any more than necessary I can win the battle overall.
 
I’m getting Canadian thistle bugs in Bozeman early August. I will show photos when I release them. Getting knapweed bugs too.
 
So , what I'm seeing is my best bet would be to mix a bunch of cover type crops together to get the best results.
For the seed beds yes I understand about seeds blowing in and the longevity of viability of some weed seeds, my goal is to.limit weeds not eliminate, that would be unattainable
But if I can limit the weeds to just what's blowing in and get to the point where I'm not disturbing the soil bed any more than necessary I can win the battle overall.
Yep, mix your perennial and biennial food groups (grasses, legumes, broadleaves) together, and it'll hold off weeds for at least three years, and five if you're not offended by encroaching grasses.

One thing I'm trying this year is broadcasting edible beans into my standing duff before I roll. I learned last year I could germinate anything under that mat, so long as the seed was big enough to store enough energy to get above the duff crop. Brassicas didn't make it.

@Catscratch has me going down to the grocery store to find the $2/lb dry beans to mix into my blend. I'm not going heavy, maybe 10 lbs/ac, and that'll only be in three of my plots that are not even an acre combined.

I'm also going to broadcast zucchini into it. I discovered most of those can produce in as little as 65 days. If I get a decent early october, I could be swimming in jumbo zuch's.
 
Do you have them? Haven't heard of anyone having them around here.
Not in my millet, yet. Farmers have been warned they are in the area this year. They ate seven acres of millet on one of my duck holes last year in four days
 
Back
Top