Grant Woods advised me not to plant winter rye:/

Jordan Selsor

5 year old buck +
Well I made a comment of Grant Woods Facebook page last wk about over seeding my eagle bean field with winter rye in late Sep. He commented he would go with winter wheat and that he doesn't care for rye due to it being over aggressive and stated it chokes everything else out in plots. We all know the extensive research Paul has put into the benefits of rye over wheat an he has me convinced. It's just crazy how you can get 2 totally opposite opinions from 2 guys that are both no doubt experts?! I must admit that in my experience winter wheat does seem to draw them in a lil better. I think this yr Im gonna include 3 grains in my fall plots (Oats,WR, an WW). What's your thoughts on this guys? I plan on going cheap this yr using grains mentioned above with red clover an radishes.
 
If your beans are "done" anyway when your seed ing small grains......what difference does it make? (Waves arms ) If you make equal amounts of the three grains you posted...some folks would call that a succotash mix. I think it's a good way to have something for fall and spring. The wheat won't be there after a frost.....but the rye will.......and next spring too!
 
If you have light soil, I would use rye.
 
The more I think about it mo, I really should start using wheat. I mix everything else, I don't harvest the grain like a farmer so mixing it can't hurt anything.
 
If it were me I would let my soil condition dictate ww or wr. We are not blessed with good soil so it makes much more sense for us to use wr. Wheat will use more resources and will not provide equivalent soil benefits but if you have really strong soil that may not be much of a consideration.
 
Well I made a comment of Grant Woods Facebook page last wk about over seeding my eagle bean field with winter rye in late Sep. He commented he would go with winter wheat and that he doesn't care for rye due to it being over aggressive and stated it chokes everything else out in plots. We all know the extensive research Paul has put into the benefits of rye over wheat an he has me convinced. It's just crazy how you can get 2 totally opposite opinions from 2 guys that are both no doubt experts?! I must admit that in my experience winter wheat does seem to draw them in a lil better. I think this yr Im gonna include 3 grains in my fall plots (Oats,WR, an WW). What's your thoughts on this guys? I plan on going cheap this yr using grains mentioned above with red clover an radishes.

That.....^^^ is the point of planting rye. What difference does it make after your soys are done growing for the year? You WANT something to "choke everything else out", to keep weeds from taking a foothold in the barren areas of ground that are left after your soybeans brown down both in the fall and the following spring. Sorry Dr. Woods, rye is and will remain the cereal grain of choice for 95% of all food plotting needs. Makes me wonder what seed mix he has his name on now that is heavy on the winter wheat %.:rolleyes: Follow the money to see where this tidbit of "cutting edge" advice came from. Expert or not Dr. Woods gets PAID big time dollars for his "OPINION"(read: ENDORSEMENT). Paul Knox FREELY gives his opinions based on facts, years of trial and error, and personal observations. That said, there is nothing wrong with diversity. I would still lean heavily towards the % of rye vs all other cereal grains.
 
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MObuck - I'mwith you. Foggy -why won't the wheat last past a frost??? Mine does! Now don't get me wrong you guys further north have much harsher winter temps than I do, but FROST will not hurt winter wheat in my exp. Now in your area it may not survive the winter like rye might/will, but frost will only kill oats in my exp.

As I understand it:
Oats - are most prfered by deer of the 3 grains but are the least cold tolerant (dies at frost)
Winter Wheat - middle deer preference but more cold tolerant (survives winters in IN)
Winter Rye - least prefer by deer but most cold tolerant.

Now I realize rye has other benefits for soil and weed supression as well.

I try to plant a mix of oats and winter wheat (rye for some reason isn't as common in my area) and the wheat will survive the winter and be availabe in the spring.
 
So bad, low OM%, Low PH, and wetter soils WR>WW?
 
So bad, low OM%, Low PH, and wetter soils WR>WW?
No that's not true. I've grown ww in some depleted soil with little soil amendment. Had it stay green all winter too, and survive to maturity.
It's clear woods doesn't have a clue what he is talking about. Wasn't it dr deer who stated brassicas were a waste of time too. These guys regally aren't as smart as they claim to be. Media, endorsements, and flat out $$ puts them on a pedestal, for the lay person to stroke away.
The same thing was happening on qdma, with the ya-hoos on there.
 
I prolly need to reread Paul's rye vs WW thread to get this answer but I don't see why if wheat is left to rot an not harvested how it is less beneficial to the soil than rye in ref to building up OM. Surely whatever nutrients WW pulls out breaks back down over time?:/
I thought the real benefit to rye was its ability to fix nitrogen into the soil. Right? Which no doubt saves us $$$ on fertilizer.
I could def see how winter rye is second to none as a cover crop an weed prevention. My frost seeded clover into rye turned out awesome this yr. living proof of that.
 
I prolly need to reread Paul's rye vs WW thread to get this answer but I don't see why if wheat is left to rot an not harvested how it is less beneficial to the soil than rye in ref to building up OM. Surely whatever nutrients WW pulls out breaks back down over time?:/
I thought the real benefit to rye was its ability to fix nitrogen into the soil. Right? Which no doubt saves us $$$ on fertilizer.
I could def see how winter rye is second to none as a cover crop an weed prevention. My frost seeded clover into rye turned out awesome this yr. living proof of that.
WR has the largest and deepest root system of all cereal grains. WR does not fix nitrogen like clover or beans, it mines it(along with other nutrients) from deep in the soil profile(deeper than all other cereals) and pulls it into the above ground plant tissue to be reclaimed into the top layers when OM breaks down. Wheat uses more nutrients to complete it's growth cycle than rye, thus it is not as efficient at recycling those nutrients.
 
Thanks wiscwhip I will never forget that now that you put it so clearly!
With that said I'm still gonna add all 3 grains mentioned above. With the Palatability of oats an wheat I doubt they pick around the rye;)
 
For our purposes I would bet there is very little difference between the soil building properties of the cereals. I have always heard rye is the king of cover crops, and it probably is. But that throne is a little overblown. If we had one rye plant, one wheat, and one oats plant to dig up, I doubt any of use would notice much difference. They would all be a big time pain to dig up. On many of these forums many don't give enough credit to oats and wheat for their abilities to "mine" nutrients and add OM. They are very good at both, if you don't believe me try to dig a plant up and see how easy it is ;) They all have extensive roots, and those roots are all efficient miners.
Just like smith I don't plant wheat because the seed is more expensive in my area. I can get rye for $9/ bushell, and oats for $6. Cheapest wheat I've seen is $22.
Woods doesn't have a clue. Of the 3 oats will smother and kill newly established alfalfa and clover. I've seen this in wet years, when it falls over. Oats has alot more leaf to it when it matures compared to rye, which has alot more stalk. I've been growing both of them as a cover crop for decades. I leave mature rye all the time in food plots, and have yet to see it smother baby clover or alfalfa. I wouldn't do it with spring planted clover/alfalfa with an oats cover crop. Planting it that late in the season will give you little growth anyway, unless you are way south.
Wheat uses more nutrients to complete it's growth cycle than rye, thus it is not as efficient at recycling those nutrients.
Wisc this makes no sense. If wheat "needs" more nutrients to grow, it's going to scavenge more nutrients from the ground, and process those nutrients into organic material (ie-roots, plant material, grain). I'm sorry but this information is misleading. The process is a cycle. Nothing leaves the cycle unless it is removed, which can happen in a variety of ways.
However, at the end of the day we are splitting hairs debating which one is better than the other. We should all agree they are great deer food, and soil builders. Since the food plotter isn't removing the grain or the plant material, over the long run, the soil is improving with all 3. It's likely rye is just a little better than the other 2 at soil building, but that difference is really irrelevant if everythings going back into the soil anyway.
I'm opening up my wallet this year and gonna grow all 3 together.
 
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Winter rye is the choice for me on poor sandy locations that I seed. I have tried oats and WW and WR. The WR germinates better for me and grows better ( I do a lot of overseeding). This is really really sandy knolls and WW and oats just did not do as well. I purposely save all my lowest quality soils for WR every year with minimal tillage. I also overseed many acres. Additionally, WR is also readily available and very reasonable in price - so that helps.

I have been doing this a long time on our land and ultimately each of us through trial and error find what works. I do use some oats every year but the vast majority of what I use is WR because I know it work.

Like stu said - don't make it too complicated!
 
Perhaps we should be mindful of the fact that Grant Woods has not posted on this thread. Jordan went to Dr. Woods site, made a comment, and received a response. Then came here, cited Dr. Woods thoughts and a differing opinion from Paul (that Jordan agrees with), and asked for our comments. Maybe that's fair, maybe it's not. But it sure is more educational (and enjoyable) when differing opinions can be expressed without personal attacks. I'm not taking anyone's side; I'm just sayin'....
 
Duly noted. Thanks! :)
 
For our purposes I would bet there is very little difference between the soil building properties of the cereals. I have always heard rye is the king of cover crops, and it probably is. But that throne is a little overblown. If we had one rye plant, one wheat, and one oats plant to dig up, I doubt any of use would notice much difference. They would all be a big time pain to dig up. On many of these forums many don't give enough credit to oats and wheat for their abilities to "mine" nutrients and add OM. They are very good at both, if you don't believe me try to dig a plant up and see how easy it is ;) They all have extensive roots, and those roots are all efficient miners.
Just like smith I don't plant wheat because the seed is more expensive in my area. I can get rye for $9/ bushell, and oats for $6. Cheapest wheat I've seen is $22.
Woods doesn't have a clue. Of the 3 oats will smother and kill newly established alfalfa and clover. I've seen this in wet years, when it falls over. Oats has alot more leaf to it when it matures compared to rye, which has alot more stalk. I've been growing both of them as a cover crop for decades. I leave mature rye all the time in food plots, and have yet to see it smother baby clover or alfalfa. I wouldn't do it with spring planted clover/alfalfa with an oats cover crop. Planting it that late in the season will give you little growth anyway, unless you are way south.

Wisc this makes no sense. If wheat "needs" more nutrients to grow, it's going to scavenge more nutrients from the ground, and process those nutrients into organic material (ie-roots, plant material, grain). I'm sorry but this information is misleading. The process is a cycle. Nothing leaves the cycle unless it is removed, which can happen in a variety of ways.
However, at the end of the day we are splitting hairs debating which one is better than the other. We should all agree they are great deer food, and soil builders. Since the food plotter isn't removing the grain or the plant material, over the long run, the soil is improving with all 3. It's likely rye is just a little better than the other 2 at soil building, but that difference is really irrelevant if everythings going back into the soil anyway.
I'm opening up my wallet this year and gonna grow all 3 together.
dipper, yes I agree that the way that statement was worded could be construed as a bit misleading. And while you are absolutely correct as far as the food plotter is concerned, there are volumes of university studies and research that show rye outperforms wheat in nutrient scavenging by 20- 40% across the board and oats by as much as 75% on average. What does that mean to the average food plotter....nothing. To the deer....even less. To someone with nitrate leaching issues in their groundwater, it could mean the difference between drinking water and an unusable well. That said we used oats and rye extensively on our place, wheat was just overly expensive compared to the other 2 and we couldn't see spending the extra $15 a bag. And besides, diversity is good.
 
We've planted ww & wr at our camp in Pa. WW was def. the better deer draw. WR is great at all-winter-green. I think we'll try a strip of ww, wr, & oats this fall to see the deer's preference. That may vary depending on season. ( frost= oat kill )
 
Makes me wonder what seed mix he has his name on now that is heavy on the winter wheat %.:rolleyes: Follow the money to see where this tidbit of "cutting edge" advice came from. (when anyone) gets PAID big time dollars for his "OPINION"(read: ENDORSEMENT).

Nothing against any of these guys (which is why I removed the name), but WI is right. When you are doing a TV or web show, 100% of your $ comes from sponsors. Then there are those outside of TV/web that sell their endorsement to the highest bidders. When $ is involved, you'd be being naïve not to question the sincerity is statements. I don't know Grant at all, but I do know A LOT of "experts" that have flat out told me they say things they don't believe just for the $. They almost have to, unless they are NOT charging big $ for their endorsement/sponsorship or make the majority of their $ from other sources (not sponsorship/endorsements).

Really, it's not much different than hiring an actor/actress for a commercial shoot. If they aren't going to say their lines, there is a huge pile of other people crawling all over each other to get that gig. I was somehow lucky enough to see that trap early and have steered clear of it, but the vast majority of "experts" and hunting "celebrities" are caught tight in that net and really have no choice. If they didn't "read their lines" they'd be cut and have to get real jobs.
 
Perhaps we should be mindful of the fact that Grant Woods has not posted on this thread. Jordan went to Dr. Woods site, made a comment, and received a response. Then came here, cited Dr. Woods thoughts and a differing opinion from Paul (that Jordan agrees with), and asked for our comments. Maybe that's fair, maybe it's not. But it sure is more educational (and enjoyable) when differing opinions can be expressed without personal attacks. I'm not taking anyone's side; I'm just sayin'....

Here is Grants post so all can interpret for themselves..
woods.png
 
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