Gas prices really jumped

Thank the Federal govt for not letting any new refineries or power plants be built in the last 40 years and for allowing hundreds of oil companies to merger down to under a dozen.
 
So what if that refinery blew up and was off the face of the map.....

Then what?

It just amazes me how tight we are on refineries that one can have a maintenance issue and it throws the entire region into a tail spin.
 
A temporary spike is good for oil company profits. Sometimes any excuse is good enough to rally the prices. Same in most commodities.......just a head fake.....then back to normal in a few days.
 
What better way to make profit than to provide the same service and manipulate the price increase that quickly.

man, I would have some nice bonus checks at work if we could tell our customers that the supply chain has been interupted, and now we are going to charge you 30% more for the foreseeable future......

We lose our supply chain, we start losing jobs....
 
Stu - agree 100% !!! The fed isn't the one stopping refineries, boys. It's the local people and states that " don't want it in MY backyard !! " Everyone WANTS new refineries, ( so gas is cheaper and more available ), just so it's somewhere else. I've worked at some refineries, for modifications and up-grades. When an accident - be it a leak or explosion - happens, the whole public gets jittery. Hence the " not in my backyard " mentality. When a refinery is proposed in ANY location, all the locals get united and raise holy hell at the public meetings, and some get violent. Same with power plants ........ and I've worked on a PILE of those. Where I live, a new gas-fired unit was proposed to 2 existing units already on-line - and you'd think it was the apocalypse !!!! GAS - FIRED !!!! It's the 2nd cleanest behind nuclear, environment-wise. And it's " not here ". But everyone wants lots of dependable power. There IS NO LOGIC !!!!
 
We're in a small battle out here right now for a pipeline from the Bakken to Patoka, IL. Lots of scuddle but about easements, payments, environment etc. It's not a done deal yet, but they're stacking up pipe in Worthing, SD like it's going ahead anyway. There's about a 320 acre field along I-29 that has pipeline sections stacked 15' high and ready to go as soon as the last permit is approved. They project they'll knock out a pipeline that spans 3 full states and part of IL by the end of next year. The irony is, a lot of the guys fighting it are the same ones that want rail space opened up so they can get grain outta the Dakotas.

http://www.daplpipelinefacts.com/
 
I agree with many of the above points. I would like to add that I can personally tell you that many of the existing refineries are trying to expand, so like bows states in the above post, I don't believe the feds or the oil companies are at the root of this issue. My coworkers and I are and have been bidding steel for additions and upgrades to the existing refineries at the rate of about 2 to 3 projects a month. They are trying to increase domestic output as best as they are allowed. Could they do better, sure, we could be bidding 10 projects a month I guess, but this is not an issue brought about by the oil companies or the fed alone. Huge amounts of pushback from the tree hugging enviro's is just as bad as the foot dragging by the EPA, and keep in mind most of the foot dragging by the EPA is caused by those tree huggers.
 
What better way to make profit than to provide the same service and manipulate the price increase that quickly.

man, I would have some nice bonus checks at work if we could tell our customers that the supply chain has been interupted, and now we are going to charge you 30% more for the foreseeable future......

We lose our supply chain, we start losing jobs....
America, the land of the free.
 
Whip - It's not just tree-huggers. Plenty of " un-attached " folks that just don't want to be in the area of fumes, possible explosions, fires, toxic chemicals in the air or on the ground, etc. I personally don't demonize " tree-huggers " either. They want basically a clean environment for future generations and want open space that's not all " developed " and black-topped. I would think most of us on here agree with those ideals - most of us are " wild & outdoor " lovers. IMO - there's nothing wrong with wanting a pipeline or refinery built in a responsible way so as not to jeopardize the land, water or air. When spills or leaks happen anywhere, WE end up with higher prices to pay for the corporations' short-cuts. ( See Scott - post #1 above ) Remember BP's " Deep-Water-Horizon " well in the Gulf ?????

Does anyone really think BP will just eat all that clean-up bill and take it out of their profits for x number of years ???? Or will they hike prices and take it out of OUR POCKETS ??? Of course there will be a " perfectly rational reason " for those price hikes that'll be manufactured in some boardroom.:rolleyes: :mad::mad:
 
I don't disagree Bows, but I have seen cases where the best made plans are blocked by these bunny-hugging folks and the "un-attached" as you say, in the name of some butterfly that might have the opportunity to fornicate on some plant that could very well be restored on a nearby habitat and not get in the way of good, clean expansion of the infrastructure. And they are the ones that will bitch the loudest about the prices getting hiked. You CANNOT have your cake and eat it too, reality doesn't work that way. H#ll, there are groups out there that will bash fossil fuels to high heaven and when a clean solution gets proposed, they are complaining about the location of the turbines or solar grid or how the turbines will affect bird flight patterns and such and then cry when their electricity costs more because it has to be supplied by the Canadian grid. It is my personal belief that oil extracted from the Bakken should be processed on the Bakken, why transport that stuff anywhere as raw crude? Refine it right at the source and ship products to the customers. Besides minimal gas taxes, there is another huge reason gas prices are low in the south, that is where all the refineries are, they do not pay the high costs of shipping fuel all the way across the country. Imagine what gas prices could be in the northern tier states if they had a refinery right on the Bakken. Brand new high-efficiency, technologically advanced refinery with minimal transport costs to a half dozen or more states near the site of extraction, it's almost a no-brainer. You don't hear any talk of that, just pipelines and safer train cars. The do the 750,000 residents of North Dakota oppose a refinery in the middle of nowhere, or is it someone else?
 
Whip - Is there a proposal to build a refinery at the Bakken ?? If so, I haven't read of it. That WOULD be a good idea. We have a couple refineries close to me. Phila., Marcus Hooke and Wilmington Delaware. The gas prices in N.J., Delaware and S.E. Pa. are fairly low compared to the rest of the U.S. New Jersey is the cheapest here in the Northeast.

I guess it's human nature to want the " bad stuff " in SOMEONE ELSE'S neighborhood. But like you said, we can't have our cake & eat it too. And in the name of fuel conservation, lower pollution, lower prices, etc., I can't understand why anything should be shipped for thousands of miles when it can be produced locally. Local food production is getting more & more popular for just those reasons and more.

And yep - there are fringe nut-jobs that don't think anything thru far enough to see the benefits of one method over another. Solar or wind power is cleaner than coal-fired power plants absolutely. So you would think the greenest of the green wouldn't gripe about possible bird strikes or an " eyesore " of solar grid arrays. How many birds die from flying into windows, grinding thru aircraft engines, etc. Solar arrays can be screened from highways with trees so they're not a big eye-catching mirror. What about the reflection off car windshields ??? Or sky-scrapers ??? Like I said ....... some just don't think things through.

Gotta relate this ..... I worked on a job with a PETA nut. He ate cucumber sandwiches every day and griped about all things animal. One of the guys asked him what his work boots and tool pouch were made from and the color left his face !!! He stammered and said - " well some things you just have to have. " Like some of the gripers I mentioned above, you can't have it both ways. You go with the best possible solution, and live with the results. Pros and cons with everything. Minimize the cons and maximize the pros.
 
Same as wolf lovers. Moose or wolves, can not have it both ways.
 
Bows, no there is no such proposal on the table that I am aware of and that is where I have a problem.:mad: There is all the talk of pipelines and the issues we all know that type of talk stirs up. Then there is the improved railcar tanker designs that the Goobs want in effect in an impossible to achieve timeframe. The railcar suppliers have already said they cannot produce the new design nearly as fast as the Goobs want every car replaced. IIRC, I read the Feds want every rail tanker in the country replaced with the new double-wall tank design by year end 2017 or they will pull them from service. What the h#ll do they think that will do to oil and gas prices when we have half the capacity to ship the oil, not to mention that the rail companies are going to increase shipping rates per gallon to cover the cost of each and every new tanker as it is, which will drive the price up even further. Yet still no mention of a refinery on the Bakken. :mad:Stupidty at it's finest!
 
Yeah it was $2.36 here on Monday, its now $3.00, I just don't get why all these companies and politicians like to sleep together....
 
I don't disagree Bows, but I have seen cases where the best made plans are blocked by these bunny-hugging folks and the "un-attached" as you say, in the name of some butterfly that might have the opportunity to fornicate on some plant that could very well be restored on a nearby habitat and not get in the way of good, clean expansion of the infrastructure. And they are the ones that will bitch the loudest about the prices getting hiked. You CANNOT have your cake and eat it too, reality doesn't work that way. H#ll, there are groups out there that will bash fossil fuels to high heaven and when a clean solution gets proposed, they are complaining about the location of the turbines or solar grid or how the turbines will affect bird flight patterns and such and then cry when their electricity costs more because it has to be supplied by the Canadian grid. It is my personal belief that oil extracted from the Bakken should be processed on the Bakken, why transport that stuff anywhere as raw crude? Refine it right at the source and ship products to the customers. Besides minimal gas taxes, there is another huge reason gas prices are low in the south, that is where all the refineries are, they do not pay the high costs of shipping fuel all the way across the country. Imagine what gas prices could be in the northern tier states if they had a refinery right on the Bakken. Brand new high-efficiency, technologically advanced refinery with minimal transport costs to a half dozen or more states near the site of extraction, it's almost a no-brainer. You don't hear any talk of that, just pipelines and safer train cars. The do the 750,000 residents of North Dakota oppose a refinery in the middle of nowhere, or is it someone else?


You could call me one of these bunny hugging folks, at least with regards to our fossil fuel dependency. Most people who are of this stance (and are actually knowledgable about it) don't so much want to eliminate fossil fuel use immediately as they want to make sure that the groundwork is laid to change the current infrastructure of our energy supply. We've got about 40 more years of oil left, so unless we develop our renewable infrastructure, we'll have to use coal after that. Coal is the dirtiest fuel that we have, not just as far as the CO2 output and it's part in climate change, but it also creates the most other nasty stuff. So, big picture, I think that expanding OTHER parts of the energy sector is MUCH more important, and logical, than the fossil fuel portion.

That being said, I think that gas is the way to go for the next 10-20 years, as it can potentially be a nice bridge between dirtier fossils, and renewables.


You hit on a lot of great points, or actually, large faults within our energy (and agricultural) systems.
1. Our system is INCREDIBLY inefficient. You use fuel to pump (or grow) the stuff, then you have to use fuel to haul it to storage, then it has to get hauled to the final destination (consumer). How many extra steps, and synthetic inputs are there?!? Do we really think that we'll be able to maintain that inefficient of a system? How do we change that? To say that much of the technology isn't there, is just a plain lie. We just have to realize that we're going to have to pay to institute this infrastructure.

2. NIMB (Not-In-My-Backyard). This is a huge problem, for everything! While 75% of the fracking frackus is junk, there are real issues there. I would say that most of these are dwarfed in comparison to those of the unmaintained oil pipelines. I was in Kalamazoo when the Enbridge line broke. Granted, that's the largest inland oil spill in U.S. history, but the damage was, for lack of a better word, incredible. Enbridge still hasn't gotten it cleaned up. I think that A LOT of the money in the system should be going to maintaining the pipelines already in use. Imagine the ecological, and economical, devastation that would be inflicted if it happened in Lake Michigan. I digress... back to NIMB. This goes with having your cake and eating it too...A lot of people aren't realizing that they are going to make short term sacrifices for long term change. This is, in general, a human flaw, and not necessarily specific to people concerned with the environment. When people have higher electricity bills, they complain about the price, rather than realizing that maybe they should use less electricity. Then if prices drop, they are still saving money. I want to reduce my gas bill, so do I complain about my car when it is more efficient but has less power? In general, we can't expect our behavior to be able to stay constant without negative effects. We live in a dynamic system, so banking static behavior is great for short term stability, but is pretty much the worst strategy long term. We have to realize that to get change, we need to sacrifice/change our own habits.
 
Yeah it was $2.36 here on Monday, its now $3.00, I just don't get why all these companies and politicians like to sleep together....

Their hearts are too cold to be warm alone. They need to cuddle for the warmth.
 
If we even forget the environmental consequences, oil is still a finite resource. It WILL run out at some point. Just imagine the time when the wells start to run dry all over the world, and the truth of the matter hits the news. Does anyone really think it's best to keep doing what we're doing and NOT get going on a plan for the future ?? Can you imagine the devastation to the world economy when all of a sudden we have to sh** a solution ?? And nobody had the foresight or spine to get alternative plans into action ?? !! That's when "gouging" will be re-defined !!!

Maybe instead of brain-dead Palin saying " drill, baby, drill ", we ought to say " innovate, baby, innovate " !!! Anybody ever think of our kids ..... grandkids ???? Their future ??? Or is it only the next quarter's profits ???

The thing that galls me is when a spill happens, our " fellow Americans " bitch about the affected folks complaining about their localities' mess. I'll bet they'd sing a different tune if the spill happened in their locality. The majority of the un-affected public ridicules the spill victims' griping. o_O :confused: Maybe they'd like to have some of those millions of yards of oil sludge soil buried in their yard and tainting their ground water. We only have this one rock to live on ....... and if we humans crap it up because of greed, convenience, neglect, spinelessness, lack of foresight or willpower ......... then we'll live ( or die ) with the consequences. We have nowhere else to go.
 
If we even forget the environmental consequences, oil is still a finite resource. It WILL run out at some point. Just imagine the time when the wells start to run dry all over the world, and the truth of the matter hits the news. Does anyone really think it's best to keep doing what we're doing and NOT get going on a plan for the future ?? Can you imagine the devastation to the world economy when all of a sudden we have to sh** a solution ?? And nobody had the foresight or spine to get alternative plans into action ?? !! That's when "gouging" will be re-defined !!!

Maybe instead of brain-dead Palin saying " drill, baby, drill ", we ought to say " innovate, baby, innovate " !!! Anybody ever think of our kids ..... grandkids ???? Their future ??? Or is it only the next quarter's profits ???

The thing that galls me is when a spill happens, our " fellow Americans " bitch about the affected folks complaining about their localities' mess. I'll bet they'd sing a different tune if the spill happened in their locality. The majority of the un-affected public ridicules the spill victims' griping. o_O :confused: Maybe they'd like to have some of those millions of yards of oil sludge soil buried in their yard and tainting their ground water. We only have this one rock to live on ....... and if we humans crap it up because of greed, convenience, neglect, spinelessness, lack of foresight or willpower ......... then we'll live ( or die ) with the consequences. We have nowhere else to go.

This x98345 !!!

I was going to school in Kalamazoo, so I didn't really get affected that much. It was just a pain that we couldn't go canoeing or fishing in the river until I was a Junior (3 years later). They had a lot of paper factories on the river, so it wasn't the cleanest in the world, but it sure as hell was better than what it is now.
 
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