I’m starting from scratch, a wide open 20 acre alfalfa field. I have started on the back 10 by planting 500 Norway spruce sporadically, (I will be removing trees as they get bigger to create separate bedding spots), 70 oaks, some apple, pear, and crabapple and Chinese chestnuts. The beans are left standing for late winter food source. I have access to every side of my property which is nice. All the X’s are Norway spruce edge screening. Square boxes with X are blind and stand locations. I plan to add switchgrass with the spruce for edge screening. Does this look like it would work for rut with the travel corridor between bedding areas? The alfalfa isnt much of a draw by November and I’m hoping it creates a dead spot so the deer have to use the corridor. This is a low cover, high pressure area.
Critique my property layout
- Thread starter Spruce85
- Start date
Bill
Administrator
Yes but with all that screening I don’t think they will feel on bit intimidated to walk that narrow bean field in broad daylight if you don’t pressure them. Being a high pressure area may make them hug the edge. But if you make them comfortable in that small area there is no reason they shouldn’t in it.
The deer are hammering the beans right now. Have had deer in bow range last few times out. It’s a huge draw around here in winter. Does this property design seem to have a natural deer flow to it that utilizes stand locations? I debated hiring a professional to do this, but I’m too cheap.
Bill
Administrator
I wouldn’t hire anyone for 20 acres. Just keep tweaking it. No expert but I think anytime you have a mixture of old fields and new evergreens (any edge vegetation) and food you will have flow. Seems like your stands cover where they will cut the corners on vegetation changes and I’m assuming the arrows are the winds you can hunt them which seems good to me.
Id think the worst thing you could on 20 acres is pressure it to hard.
Id think the worst thing you could on 20 acres is pressure it to hard.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
20 acres in the middle of ag... I might plant one small 1/4-1/2 acres near those trees. The rest I'd just let revert back to nature. Your big picture is not zoomed out far enough, but presuming the rest of the surrounding area looks similar, the missing component in the area is cover. Hunt it lightly and let it get ugly.
Thanks,
Jack
Thanks,
Jack
Telemark
5 year old buck +
I wouldn't try to design a property around stands. I would try to offer a variety of things to the deer and see what they like/use. You can always add/move stands and blinds. Like Bill said, just keep tweaking it.
FarmerDan
5 year old buck +
Happy winter solstice! I agree with Jack! Given the average home range of a deer, you are rather limited in what you can do with 20 acres that will make a difference for your objective - whatever it is. If cover is a limiting factor, then, as Jack says, create the best cover in the area. If food is limited, then figure out how it's limited (and it might be where you are. It looks like monoculture to me), and supplement it. What I mean is if everything around you is soybeans, and they are gone after or before a certain date, find another "crop" that fills the gap - assuming it fits with your objective. All this requires some work to do an inventory of the 600 (+/-) acres around you. Free advice! Probably what it's worth! Good luck.
But, specifically, you ask, "Does this look like it would work for rut with the travel corridor between bedding areas? The alfalfa isnt much of a draw by November and I’m hoping it creates a dead spot so the deer have to use the corridor. This is a low cover, high pressure area?"
I don't have a clue. It sounds like a lot of work that has long odds of producing the results I think you think you might get. But, that's just Sunday morning guesswork on my part.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I disagree. With a tiny property, the only thing one can really accomplish realistically is improving the hunting. From my perspective, the primary consideration would be stand location. I'd first look at prevailing winds. While i do use a lot of permanent stands/elevated blinds as I'm getting older. I find deer quickly become leery of them. I shot a doe out of an elevated box blind the other night with a muzzleloader because my rifle had failed and was in the shop. Two does came out into the field. The stood like statues ears cupped focused on the blind. They stood just looking and listening for over 5 minutes. Who knows how long they had been watching that blind before stepping out. They kept their distance at 50 yards (fine for a rifle or muzzleloader but not for archery). I waited until the leading larger doe finally put her head down. When a pulled back the hammer on the muzzleloader there was a soft click. She immediately went of full alert, stared for about 15 seconds, then headed back into the woods. She stopped short but was behind a tree cage at that point. They were both so nervous this late into the season and I had a shot at the smaller doe, so I took her.
The point of that story is the blinds, temporary or permanent, can become immediate targets of deer senses once they learn danger is associated with them. That doesn't mean you won't ever get deer close to a blind, but the more hunting pressure, the more wary they become of blinds. Temporary blinds draw similar attention, not because they are associated with danger, but because the are new and out of place.
So, I preferred mobile tree stands like climbers when the situation allows and when I was young enough to use them comfortably. From the pic, it looks like the top left corner might allow the use of treestands. So, the first question I would ask myself is whether the prevailing wind will allow for regular use of that corner for stands. If so, that would be where I would start. Short of fencing or much more dramatic terrain, it will be hard to funnel deer past a specific stand location. However if the top left corner works for a stand location, trying to create a property design that allows me to access that corner without spooking deer and generally moves deer toward that corner.
Again, I'd probably just let nature take its course allowing most of the 20 acres to get thick and ugly. I'd probably strategically bushhog some paths through it and put a small food plot near that upper left corner provided the prevailing wind allows it to be the primary general area of stand sites. I would not try to uses food as the primary attraction. Rather I'd let cover be the primary reason deer use your land. A low maintenance crop like clover is a good candidate. Less human activity the better. When farm crops are harvested it may provide some attraction, but more importantly, if deer are bedding on your 20 acres waiting to feed on the big farm fields after dark, a tiny field that feels secure close to bedding makes a great appetizer during shooting hours.
Thanks,
Jack
j-bird
Moderator
My 2 cents worth....
My folks place is 20 acres....I think you have too much going on here. I'm not trying to be an ass....I did it when I first started....I tried to manage my place like it was an island and was a square mile in size. The TV shows and the books and the like tell us how we have to provide all this different food and different habitat and the like and well to be honest....most of us simply don't have the amount of land needed to do that. You will beat your head against the wall if you try. So...if you can't have it all....then focus on when you want your place to be at it's best!
It looks like your property is roughly twice as deep as it is wide. 20 acres thus equates to roughly 650 feet wide and 1,300 feet deep. bedding areas of an acre or so is fine...but you still need buffer between those and your plots and the like. Depending on the need for the hay/alfalfa area I would simply move that up toward the road. If you don't NEED the hay....I would toss it out the window. You need as much cover as you can get! But I understand having limitations when it comes to the land having to provide other functions. I suspect your neighbors will have beans in the summer....let them feed the deer when they can't shoot them!! I would certainly retain the road screen. I would try to stay away from the west and north property lines where your adjoining cover is at as that is where the deer will be coming from. That is where your current deer flow is at because that is where the cover is. I would essentially take the north half or so of the property and make it a tangled mess of spruce, switch, shrubs and oaks. Then in all of that, I use the lay of the ground to try to guide my efforts as to where I put in 1 or maybe two really nice quality blinds that I can access from the east property line and the south edge of the alfalfa field At each blind location I put the plotting basics and then I connect those two plots with a winding plot as well if you need more food. I would focus my plotting and tree plantings on when I am going to hunt the most....I know the literature out there says we have to provide year round nutrition....the food plot police are not going to come get you. If you hunt November...then focus on November food sources first. Cover, at least from what I can see, will be your biggest asset. You will be well served to stay out of as much of that cover as possible as well. If you can keep the does happy the boys will come looking for them. You will have to concede that the bucks will live somewhere else, but your not going to hold a mature buck on 20 acres in my opinion anyway. Being able to hold the does and hunt without educating them is going to be the utmost importance to you on limited land. Keep in mind that rows or lines of shrubs or trees or the like create edges as well that the deer may follow...so try to think about a "all roads lead to foodplots/kill locations" when planting. Random is fine, but deer certainly like edges and will follow them, so you can use that to your advantage if you plan ahead for it.
My folks place is 20 acres....I think you have too much going on here. I'm not trying to be an ass....I did it when I first started....I tried to manage my place like it was an island and was a square mile in size. The TV shows and the books and the like tell us how we have to provide all this different food and different habitat and the like and well to be honest....most of us simply don't have the amount of land needed to do that. You will beat your head against the wall if you try. So...if you can't have it all....then focus on when you want your place to be at it's best!
It looks like your property is roughly twice as deep as it is wide. 20 acres thus equates to roughly 650 feet wide and 1,300 feet deep. bedding areas of an acre or so is fine...but you still need buffer between those and your plots and the like. Depending on the need for the hay/alfalfa area I would simply move that up toward the road. If you don't NEED the hay....I would toss it out the window. You need as much cover as you can get! But I understand having limitations when it comes to the land having to provide other functions. I suspect your neighbors will have beans in the summer....let them feed the deer when they can't shoot them!! I would certainly retain the road screen. I would try to stay away from the west and north property lines where your adjoining cover is at as that is where the deer will be coming from. That is where your current deer flow is at because that is where the cover is. I would essentially take the north half or so of the property and make it a tangled mess of spruce, switch, shrubs and oaks. Then in all of that, I use the lay of the ground to try to guide my efforts as to where I put in 1 or maybe two really nice quality blinds that I can access from the east property line and the south edge of the alfalfa field At each blind location I put the plotting basics and then I connect those two plots with a winding plot as well if you need more food. I would focus my plotting and tree plantings on when I am going to hunt the most....I know the literature out there says we have to provide year round nutrition....the food plot police are not going to come get you. If you hunt November...then focus on November food sources first. Cover, at least from what I can see, will be your biggest asset. You will be well served to stay out of as much of that cover as possible as well. If you can keep the does happy the boys will come looking for them. You will have to concede that the bucks will live somewhere else, but your not going to hold a mature buck on 20 acres in my opinion anyway. Being able to hold the does and hunt without educating them is going to be the utmost importance to you on limited land. Keep in mind that rows or lines of shrubs or trees or the like create edges as well that the deer may follow...so try to think about a "all roads lead to foodplots/kill locations" when planting. Random is fine, but deer certainly like edges and will follow them, so you can use that to your advantage if you plan ahead for it.
Thanks j-bird. I guess I was trying to break it up and create as much diversity as possible. The hay field is only for a trade off. The farmer takes the hay and plants beans and leaves them standing for me. Once I have some equipment, I’ll be planting my own and the hay field will be converted to cover. The beans have been a late season gold mine, so I’d like to keep that in the plan somehow. I agree with planting food sources from November on. That’s when I do most of my hunting. The apple, crabapple, pear, persimmons orchard are all variety’s that drop from October- February. I figured adding a soft mast buffet would be a huge draw November thru January, along with some excellent thermal cover with browse close by. The white oaks and chestnuts I thought would keep deer close by in the fall, as it’s something that is not plentiful around my area.
j-bird
Moderator
OK... lets sort of take a step back...
Where is this?
Are you mostly a gun or bow hunter?
What are your prevailing winds like in November?
What does your acorn crop typically look like in November in this area?
What does the typical soft mast crop look like in this area come November?
Do you overseed cereal grains and brassica into your beans?
Do you prefer hunting over plots or between bedding and feeding areas or down wind of bedding areas?
I see 2 places to dump scent and that is your alfalfa field (for now) and the east neighbors place. That means you can essentially hunt with a wind coming from the North or West, anything from the South or East would/could be blowing your scent to the deer in the cover beyond your property. This normally would not concern me, but on 20 acres....the deer are coming to you from those places.
I'm all for diversity, but we need to focus on your November window and the cover is going to be your biggest asset. If my figures based on your properties dimensions are close, then if you hunt with a gun you should be able to place a blind at the intersection of the west line of your oaks area and the north alfalfa field edge and access that through the alfalfa or along the north alfalfa screen and hunt it with any wind coming from the north. You simply will need to be able to see the deer. You can do this with some mowed or even planted shooting lanes to add your variety or even your tree plantings. Another firearm option is to place another elevated blind along the east property lines over looking your beans to take advantage of a wind from the west. You simply access along the screen on the east property line. If your a bow hunter....then things get more difficult. My biggest concern with bow hunting is getting close enough without educating the deer. This becomes particularly difficult when hunting large plots (like your beans need).
First, Im in North central Ohio. I’m a bow hunter first, but I also hunt gun and muzzleloader season (mainly what beans are for. Also have a gravity feeder and water hole in NE corner). Creating bedding areas for does, to bow hunt by in November rut is important. Same as late season thermal bedding.
Most common winds are S,SW and W. But of course, it occasionally comes from N and every direction during the season.
As far as acorns, Red oaks are common, it’s extremely hard to find a white oak for whatever reason. (Farmers have had them logged in the surrounding small woodlots) to the NW are a few Chinese chestnuts but the neighbors are out walking around everyday.
As for soft mast, there is an old, overgrown apple orchard SW of my property but very few trees produce anything.
I overseeded winter rye in the beans this year.
I prefer to hunt between bedding and food bc it’s extremely hard to get out of stand sitting over large plots. (I built a tower blind in the NE corner of beans for a W wind, seems I cannot get down without blowing the deer out) I do access down the E line of spruce screening, they just aren’t tall enough yet. It sure is tough starting from scratch and trying to figure out what and where to plant everything.
j-bird
Moderator
So you have a elevated blind and waterhole in the NE corner already.... OK. So you have some things in place. I have a tower blind where I have issues busting deer as well when I enter/leave because of being exposed up on the platform. I am putting in some screening and considering lower the stand some and possibly even going to a trap door type entrance as well to combat those issues.
The mast questions was more aimed at timing of their availability in your area. Here...the acorns and soft mast start falling in October and are mostly gone by the time November rolls around. That is why I am planting late dropping apples and crabs and adding some sawtooth to my place as well. I am adding these in a perennial clover plot (trying to make the most use of the plot space as I can). I overseed my beans as well for the same reason....in my area (much like yours) cover is very limited and the more area I can use for cover vs food the better. The food still holds the deer after the harvest is complete, but I focus on that November time frame as well...anything that carries over into winter is great, but not the current objective.
I was afraid your winds would tend to be southerly. With the current cover being North and West of you that is where the deer are going to come from. Even once your cover improves those areas will be where the deer enter and leave your property. Hunting locations and stand routes that have a wind blowing your scent into those areas is going to be a major issue. Being a bow hunter is going to be tough....and getting between the food and the bedding will be even tougher.
I would leave your blind in the NE corner. You can plot and plant in that area as you see fit. I am not wild about the stands and clover plots west of the alfalfa field. I think getting to and out of those stands is going to be a challenge. If you want to hunt that general area I would put a blind between the plot and the alfalfa field and use the screens along the alfalfa field for access. The stand in the NW corner is going to potentially do more harm than good. You are going deep into cover and your scent has nowhere to go. Also keep in mind that deer like to follow edges. So place like the edge that your oak planting makes and where it meets the beans and the alfalfa and the like where different cover types meet will be great spots.....you just have to be able to get in/out without being busted. I could even see planting your oaks in winding rows trying to guide the deer to your other plots and having blinds at the ends or along those rows as well.
The only thing for certain is that you have to consider where you are going to hunt and how you are going to access that stand and NOT educate deer in the process. With your limited area to work with....I think you really need to limit your stands to maybe 2 or 3 tops. With that in mind I would try to work out bow stands that you simply gun hunt from....and multi-purpose your plot's and plantings as much as possible to try to give yourself as much cover as possible. Deer like corners and edges so use that to your advantage as well....hunt where various cover types come together or use this to lead them where you want them to go.
The mast questions was more aimed at timing of their availability in your area. Here...the acorns and soft mast start falling in October and are mostly gone by the time November rolls around. That is why I am planting late dropping apples and crabs and adding some sawtooth to my place as well. I am adding these in a perennial clover plot (trying to make the most use of the plot space as I can). I overseed my beans as well for the same reason....in my area (much like yours) cover is very limited and the more area I can use for cover vs food the better. The food still holds the deer after the harvest is complete, but I focus on that November time frame as well...anything that carries over into winter is great, but not the current objective.
I was afraid your winds would tend to be southerly. With the current cover being North and West of you that is where the deer are going to come from. Even once your cover improves those areas will be where the deer enter and leave your property. Hunting locations and stand routes that have a wind blowing your scent into those areas is going to be a major issue. Being a bow hunter is going to be tough....and getting between the food and the bedding will be even tougher.
I would leave your blind in the NE corner. You can plot and plant in that area as you see fit. I am not wild about the stands and clover plots west of the alfalfa field. I think getting to and out of those stands is going to be a challenge. If you want to hunt that general area I would put a blind between the plot and the alfalfa field and use the screens along the alfalfa field for access. The stand in the NW corner is going to potentially do more harm than good. You are going deep into cover and your scent has nowhere to go. Also keep in mind that deer like to follow edges. So place like the edge that your oak planting makes and where it meets the beans and the alfalfa and the like where different cover types meet will be great spots.....you just have to be able to get in/out without being busted. I could even see planting your oaks in winding rows trying to guide the deer to your other plots and having blinds at the ends or along those rows as well.
The only thing for certain is that you have to consider where you are going to hunt and how you are going to access that stand and NOT educate deer in the process. With your limited area to work with....I think you really need to limit your stands to maybe 2 or 3 tops. With that in mind I would try to work out bow stands that you simply gun hunt from....and multi-purpose your plot's and plantings as much as possible to try to give yourself as much cover as possible. Deer like corners and edges so use that to your advantage as well....hunt where various cover types come together or use this to lead them where you want them to go.
Thanks j-bird. I watch a lot of Jeff’s stuff, but hadn’t seen that video.
It’s probably hard to tell by the maps, those stands to the east I selected because 1. There are mature trees already there and 2. It’s an excellent entrance spot. The neighbors driveway runs thru and there are houses on the other side of that. It’s essentially a place where no deer pass thru and I can use my neighbors driveway to access stands. With a little screening, I thought it would be a good setup to get between the two main bedding areas being created for cruising bucks during the rut.
I would like to create some areas of woody regeneration and switchgrass but I’m just not sure where. Would doing most of the southern 10 acres be wise?
I appreciate the feedback, it’s nice to get others opinions as it’s a very costly and time consuming project. I like to know I’m taking the right steps.
j-bird
Moderator
I'm confused....east (I assume the right side of your photo) or west (assuming the left side of your photo)? The east stands I have no issue with....access once the screen improves should be fine and your scent blows out into the wide open when it comes from the North or West.... Those on the west....are the ones I am concerned about. Being between the bedding areas is fine....I would limit the plots to the corners or make a narrow and winding one (winding makes the plot feel smaller/safer). IF you feel you can get in on the "back side" where you have your stands showing now that is great....you just have to watch your wind and it was sort of difficult to tell what the cover was like on the west neighbors place more to the south. Just make sure you have a means to go around and not thru when accessing that area for hunting.
Switchgrass is great stuff, but it alone in nothing but a sea of it I struggle with. The deer seem to like things in the switchgrass (tree tops, shrub clusters and the like) to bed against in the switchgrass from what I have seen. So if you wanted to add some shrub pockets in the switch that would be fine....just keep in mind that if you intend on burning your switch that the fire will be pretty hot and can damage those other woody plants (one reason why folks burn switch is to kill of the woody plants). I would avoid planting too much that would be considered a food source in your bedding areas. You want the deer to have to come out to feed so you can shoot them. I would Also keep in mind that it won't hurt to add some switch to the other areas where you may have some native weeds and grasses growing as well (something has to grow between those spruce trees). You can add a browse plot or two if you want as well, just realize that these will need to be protected until established and place them where they are to YOUR advantage.....maybe along the west corridor....
My concern is simply trying to do too much...both habitat wise as well as hunting wise. 2 or 3 stands tops and on a smaller property...less is more. Give them as much great cover as you can with just enough food to hold their attention and put those stands where you can get in and out without educating the deer and your all set. The less area you disrupt the more the deer will use it......
Switchgrass is great stuff, but it alone in nothing but a sea of it I struggle with. The deer seem to like things in the switchgrass (tree tops, shrub clusters and the like) to bed against in the switchgrass from what I have seen. So if you wanted to add some shrub pockets in the switch that would be fine....just keep in mind that if you intend on burning your switch that the fire will be pretty hot and can damage those other woody plants (one reason why folks burn switch is to kill of the woody plants). I would avoid planting too much that would be considered a food source in your bedding areas. You want the deer to have to come out to feed so you can shoot them. I would Also keep in mind that it won't hurt to add some switch to the other areas where you may have some native weeds and grasses growing as well (something has to grow between those spruce trees). You can add a browse plot or two if you want as well, just realize that these will need to be protected until established and place them where they are to YOUR advantage.....maybe along the west corridor....
My concern is simply trying to do too much...both habitat wise as well as hunting wise. 2 or 3 stands tops and on a smaller property...less is more. Give them as much great cover as you can with just enough food to hold their attention and put those stands where you can get in and out without educating the deer and your all set. The less area you disrupt the more the deer will use it......
Just a couple of observations. Not all your deer will travel to your land from the west; it appears there is additional woods NE of your land with excellent fence row edges (trees and shrubs) which may encourage travel from the northeast (along the east edge of the woods north of you) and from the fencerow east of your NE corner. Consequently, I like the idea of the tower blind near the waterhole. I'd plant no more than 2 rows of spruce as screens on the north and west edges; and I'd load a ton of chestnut, pear and persimmion in semi circles (with shooting lanes) around the area west/southwest sides of the pond. I'd also place persimions / pears closest to the pond area since they will hold on the tree well into the season. I'd plant pears/persimmions 17-18 feet apart (they tend to grow up more than out) with 20' between rows (ultimately too be planted in clover). One of the first things I would do is work on screening the east side of the property (two rows of norway spruce with the spruce in the second row offset to cover openings between trees in the outside row). Then I'd plant a third row of columnar hybrid white oaks inside the spruce (in 7-8 years ,you'll have an excellent screen). The second photo suggests there is little to no cover on most of the east side of your land so it is likey the least disruptive (regarding wildlife) way to access most of the property (once you create screens). Since you have planned on planting spruce south of the alfalfa field, I'd consider loading the alfalfa field with spruce, plums (they form great thickets) and mulberry (the deer will keep them trimmed back in the summer; any that get over 4' ... just cut the leaders out and, if any produce berries (GLY'k'em .. the female.. you don't want an invasive problem). If you develop the lower third of the property for bedding / loafing, the tower stand in the NE corner of the alfalfa field (a great funnel to the beans and mast in the north) should be a productive spot late in the season when colder temps make high protein beans very desirable. A double row of spruce from the east property line to the fencerow near the tower in the NE corner of the alfalfa field would make acess to the stand easier. Just a couple of thoughts to consider as you think about how you want to develop your land. There are several things you could do on the west side as well.
The stands to the west I meant to say. Access would be perfect. The problem with the property to the west and north is, the guy lives off the land. He and his wife are out walking around, gardening, building things all day. The little bit of woods are wide open and offer almost zero cover. Zero deer bed on that property in daylight hours. I could stand on my property edge and see him working around the house, gardening, walking the dogs, making maple syrup, etc all the way across his property. He owns the mature pines to the north also. He’s been building a cabin in the middle for the last couple years. Deer only funnel thru after dark. I’ve noticed most of the deer (especially bucks) come from the property’s to the NE.
I agree, I need cover and browse, how to set it up so I have sure fire shot opportunities is the hard part. I’m hoping the pressure from all the surrounding farms draws deer to my place. Despite the pressure, I get pics of big bucks. Mostly night time, as they come from properties further away to eat.
You are correct, although after dark, most of the deer come from the NE properties. There is too much pressure to the west and north wood lots. I have all those trees ordered for spring, I like the idea of planting that stuff around the water. What does planting in semi circles do? Just create a pocket that make deer feel safe while eating? I have to be careful what I plant in the NE corners bc it is all mature black walnut trees. I think persimmons will be ok and maybe chestnut. Was considering changing the back corner to clover around the water and using the beans for gun season, as they would then be too far away.
S.T.Fanatic
5 year old buck +
If that was my ground I would be tempted to find a different place to bow hunt, plant the entire thing in wild flowers and switch grass with the exception of a 6 acre destination food plot. I would plant the down wind line of the plot in late dropping crabs (widely spaced so shooting opportunities aren't out of the question) and for food I'd have it half and half beans/corn rotating every year. Plant early maturing beans and over seed with a brassica mix right when you first notice the beans start to yellow. I'd also seed a winter cereal around mid September into the beans. Place 2 box blinds in locations for 2 wind directions mow paths to them to enter (hidden by the switch) Stay the hell out of it and shoot the biggest buck in the area when a cold front moves in during the black powder season.
