Cereal Rye vs Wheat Question

[birdog]

Cereal rye scavenges nitrogen which I think means after termination the rye returns nitrogen back into the soil? Wheat fixes nitrogen which I think means after termination no nitrogen is returned to the soil? I can't seem to find an answer regarding the wheat.

My plan is to incorporate cereal rye in a few of my clover/chicory plots to address the excess nitrogen, weed control and build OM. I have used rye in the past with great results however I just now found out that rye returns nitrogen which may defeat my goal of reducing the nitrogen already in the soil from the clover/chicory. Maybe it's not enough to worry about but it got me wondering if I should switch to wheat instead.

 

[Telemark]

I'm not really sure what you mean here, but it seems like you got a few things wrong. Either wheat or rye would probably be fine for your purposes.

 

[FarmerDan]

There's always some nitrate in most all soils. It either gets used by the plant or it disappears - to put it simply. The nitrogen in a field left fallow overwinter will lose most of it's free nitrate. Plant a cover crop and the nitrogen that would otherwise disappear gets used or absorbed by the crop. Since the crop is not harvested it become green manure - organic matter back into the soil, the source of a lot of nitrates. These plants are scavenging free nitrogen.

Plants that 'fix' nitrogen are a whole other class. They are legumes. Clovers, alfalfa, peas, etc. They can make nitrogen out of thin air. This they do for their own use. They fix their own dinners. I don't think removing excess nitrogen will help you with your weed control problem. It's a logic line of thinking but it doesn't work that way. Or maybe it does and I don't know it!

 

[SD51555]

Only way to deal with it is to use it. I grow rye all season in my clover. Plant it 6-8 weeks before frost, and I let it go all the way into the next season when I replant, mow and repeat. Rye uses it when it’s growing, and the soil organisms use it when they’re breaking down the rye residue. It’ll then get picked up and used by the next rye crop.


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[omicron1792]

There's always some nitrate in most all soils. It either gets used by the plant or it disappears - to put it simply. The nitrogen in a field left fallow overwinter will lose most of it's free nitrate. Plant a cover crop and the nitrogen that would otherwise disappear gets used or absorbed by the crop. Since the crop is not harvested it become green manure - organic matter back into the soil, the source of a lot of nitrates. These plants are scavenging free nitrogen.

Plants that 'fix' nitrogen are a whole other class. They are legumes. Clovers, alfalfa, peas, etc. They can make nitrogen out of thin air. This they do for their own use. They fix their own dinners. I don't think removing excess nitrogen will help you with your weed control problem. It's a logic line of thinking but it doesn't work that way. Or maybe it does and I don't know it!

I think of it a little different.

Most farmed land doesn’t have extra nitrogen. The plants take it up from soil and then the plants are harvested. This leaves little excess nitrogen and you have to add it back to next crop (with legume cover crop or synthetic).

Food plotters don’t harvest the crop, so it is a constant recycling. That’s where C:N ratio comes into a play. Too many legumes or nitrogen and nature will find way to fill the gap. Weeds will grow, and rapidly, in the nitrogen rich environment.

Planting nitrogen scavenging plants like rye fills this void. Others like wheat and oats do it also, but don’t have the same allelopathic effects. Yet, they can outcompete the weeds and still provide some of the benefits.

You can either continue this cycle by planting cover/nurse grass crops, or rotate every couple of years to brassicas (heavyN users) to keep the area in balance.

That’s the way I see it at least.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I think of it a little different.

Most farmed land doesn’t have extra nitrogen. The plants take it up from soil and then the plants are harvested. This leaves little excess nitrogen and you have to add it back to next crop (with legume cover crop or synthetic).

Food plotters don’t harvest the crop, so it is a constant recycling. That’s where C:N ratio comes into a play. Too many legumes or nitrogen and nature will find way to fill the gap. Weeds will grow, and rapidly, in the nitrogen rich environment.

Planting nitrogen scavenging plants like rye fills this void. Others like wheat and oats do it also, but don’t have the same allelopathic effects. Yet, they can outcompete the weeds and still provide some of the benefits.

You can either continue this cycle by planting cover/nurse grass crops, or rotate every couple of years to brassicas (heavyN users) to keep the area in balance.

That’s the way I see it at least.

If most farm land didn’t have extra nitrogen the nitrate levels in our water supply would be no big deal. That certainly isn’t the case.


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[omicron1792]

If most farm land didn’t have extra nitrogen the nitrate levels in our water supply would be no big deal. That certainly isn’t the case.


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What Happens to Nitrogen in Soils?

Chemistry, Nitrogen, E-59, Tony Provin, L. R. Hossner

agrilifeextension.tamu.edu

That is overuse of synthetic nitrogen for crop yield. Why farmers are planting cover crops to trap any that is left after.

I agree it’s not a zero sum game. I think the gist of what I was saying remains.

One of the main effects of nitrogen runoff is that algae (weeds) get supercharged and overgrown.

 

[yoderjac]

Cereal rye scavenges nitrogen which I think means after termination the rye returns nitrogen back into the soil? Wheat fixes nitrogen which I think means after termination no nitrogen is returned to the soil? I can't seem to find an answer regarding the wheat.

My plan is to incorporate cereal rye in a few of my clover/chicory plots to address the excess nitrogen, weed control and build OM. I have used rye in the past with great results however I just now found out that rye returns nitrogen which may defeat my goal of reducing the nitrogen already in the soil from the clover/chicory. Maybe it's not enough to worry about but it got me wondering if I should switch to wheat instead.

Here are my thoughts on the subject. There are benefits of incorporating cereal into a clover field. As clover plants fix N from the air, die, and release the N slowly over the years, the field becomes more attractive to N seeking plants like grasses. Eventually a clover monoculture seems to wear out and needs to be rotated. When you mix Chicory with clover the problem is reduced as it uses N from the soil. Incorporating cereal can do the same thing. When plants die, the release any nutrients they still have back into the soil. It is part of the nutrient cycling that occurs with healthy soil. N seekers like cereal and chicory are great deer foods. Deer consume them and defecate back into the field. More nutrient cycling.

Think about a pasture for cattle. It is often a mixture of different grasses and clover. If grazing is well managed, they can last form many years. Why? it is a complementary mix of plants

So, when we drill cereal, GHR, or other N seeking plants into clover, we are adding attractive to deer food to the clover that takes up space and resources (like N) that would otherwise be used by grasses that will inevitable overtake a clover field. We are basically replacing plants that deer don't eat with plants they love.

So, in my opinion, don't worry about the fact that N and other nutrients will eventually be releases as plants die and decay. That is the way it is supposed to work.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[FarmerDan]

Your honor, I withdraw the question.
Wait a minute. It wasn't my question. I withdraw my answer!

 

[Bassattackr]

Your honor, I withdraw the question.
Wait a minute. It wasn't my question. I withdraw my answer!

Factor in Triticale and you've got yourself a real conundrum...

 

[Bassattackr]

address the excess nitrogen, weed control and build OM.

If these are your primary goals, you may have answered your own question...

Both wheat and rye utilize nitrogen at a time it is available from the growing clover (Fall and especially Spring during flowering), yet studies prove rye will be the better answer for weed control and the additional biomass of rye would help build more OM

 

[birdog]

Awesome guys! I think perhaps I was over thinking the nitrogen scavenger vs nitrogen fixer question and for some reason I thought rye as a scavenger put back what it took out therefore making it self defeating.

Not to take anything away from anyone else but yoderjac addressed my goals exactly. Can I assume that both wheat and cereal rye are coequals regarding nitrogen uptake with the difference being better weed suppression and biomass with rye?

All of you guys and the time you took to answer my question is greatly appreciated! Your responses has been very helpful and I thank you all for it.

And yes, triticale is very intriguing!!

 

[birdog]

Bassattackr you answered while I was typing!! Thank you sir!

 

[Catscratch]

Just to throw this in there... plants that fixate nitrogen need a bacteria to do it. Usually a specific bacteria. Sometimes the right one is native to the soil and so.etimes it needs to be added as an inoculation.

 

[SD51555]

Just to throw this in there... plants that fixate nitrogen need a bacteria to do it. Usually a specific bacteria. Sometimes the right one is native to the soil and so.etimes it needs to be added as an inoculation.

You talkin bout metabolomics?

 

[Nightvision]

I think of it a little different.



Food plotters don’t harvest the crop, so it is a constant recycling. That’s where C:N ratio comes into a play. Too many legumes or nitrogen and nature will find way to fill the gap. Weeds will grow, and rapidly, in the nitrogen rich environment.

That’s the way I see it at least.

We don’t harvest it but in some situations the deer eat it all. The nitrogen release comes when the plant dies.

How much N is really released say in an alfalfa field that stays alive but the deer keep it mowed down? Honest question as I’ve never pulled soil test to find out.

I do know that if I give my small perennial clover and alfalfa plots a little N that the growth explodes. Had to do it a few weeks ago on a micro plot. It’s very small and the deer had it mowed down to the ground. Tossed out 40lbs of 10-10-10 and now it looks great.

 

[omicron1792]

We don’t harvest it but in some situations the deer eat it all. The nitrogen release comes when the plant dies.

How much N is really released say in an alfalfa field that stays alive but the deer keep it mowed down? Honest question as I’ve never pulled soil test to find out.

I do know that if I give my small perennial clover and alfalfa plots a little N that the growth explodes. Had to do it a few weeks ago on a micro plot. It’s very small and the deer had it mowed down to the ground. Tossed out 40lbs of 10-10-10 and now it looks great.

I think Grant Woods has thought about this question a lot. The basis of his buffalo system is that when herds eat it, they poop out the nutrients which provide fertilizer for the field. If they eat field to the ground, and they are probably urinating and defecating most of the nutrients plus beneficial bacteria and fungus back onto your property. That is another thing that farmers the harvest the crops usually do not get.

I do not look at this as all or nothing equation. There is no doubt adding nitrogen at certain points will benefit the growth of crops. However, there are also studies that synthetic nitrogen calls damage to the microbial community which long-term hurt your field. The purpose of growing green is to get this field in the harmony, similar to the great grass planes that the buffalo roam, and not have to supply synthetic products.

 

[omicron1792]

We don’t harvest it but in some situations the deer eat it all. The nitrogen release comes when the plant dies.

How much N is really released say in an alfalfa field that stays alive but the deer keep it mowed down? Honest question as I’ve never pulled soil test to find out.

I do know that if I give my small perennial clover and alfalfa plots a little N that the growth explodes. Had to do it a few weeks ago on a micro plot. It’s very small and the deer had it mowed down to the ground. Tossed out 40lbs of 10-10-10 and now it looks great.

Also no, I am not at this point on my fields. I have traditionally prepared my food plots until this last year. I will be putting some triple #17 on my fall crop planting. I’m hoping to get away from this. Crimson and camo and Jack are two of my inspirations, and they report not using synthetic‘s for quite some time. I don’t think Grant Woods has used fertilizer or lime in close to 10 years.

 

[Nightvision]

I think Grant Woods has thought about this question a lot. The basis of his buffalo system is that when herds eat it, they poop out the nutrients which provide fertilizer for the field. If they eat field to the ground, and they are probably urinating and defecating most of the nutrients plus beneficial bacteria and fungus back onto your property. That is another thing that farmers the harvest the crops usually do not care.

Ok valid point but isn’t that assuming that the poop was from a nitrogen rich plant?

It would be really fun to study a food plot like this. Say a small 1/8 acre. Pull a soil test before planting and then yearly just to compare the N levels. Very curious as to how much they would change if the plot was constantly grazed down.

 

[yoderjac]

We don’t harvest it but in some situations the deer eat it all. The nitrogen release comes when the plant dies.

How much N is really released say in an alfalfa field that stays alive but the deer keep it mowed down? Honest question as I’ve never pulled soil test to find out.

I do know that if I give my small perennial clover and alfalfa plots a little N that the growth explodes. Had to do it a few weeks ago on a micro plot. It’s very small and the deer had it mowed down to the ground. Tossed out 40lbs of 10-10-10 and now it looks great.

With clover, individual plants die all the time. The largest release is when the clover is terminated. Keep in mind that much of the plant is under ground. Why do you think that a recently established clover field is so lush (presuming it is planted with best practices) and that each year more and more grasses invade the plot?

When deer eat plants, they also contribute back to the field. If deer are eating all you plant in a plot you may have bigger problems. Planting tiny plots can be problematic for many reasons. They can be useful for hunting in some situations, but need to be focused on that period. When other quality food is not readily available and a tiny plot has an attractive crop, it doesn't take much to wipe it out. It is kind of like the guy in the big woods can't figure out why his 1/2 acre of soybeans won't grow.

I really see two different objectives with food plots and a lot of overlap between them. On one end of the spectrum we have QDM. This is where you are trying to manage and improve the health of the local herd. It takes significant scale to do this in any measurable way. This requires scale and plots are primarily focused on providing quality food during stress periods. On the other end of the spectrum we have influencing deer movement to improve hunting. This can be done with smaller properties. With this objective food plots are focused on providing attraction during specific hunting seasons. Then many folks are in between these two objectives. I'm an example. We are trying to do QDM but only own ~400 acres and have influence over another ~400.

Deer are browsers by nature and even with QDM objectives, food plots only provide a small portion of their overall diet. Different plants (both planted and native) mine nutrients and minerals from many levels of the soil. Such a varied diet is why there are no studies that show free ranging deer benefit from mineral supplements. It is also why when deer urinate and defecate back into a field, the nutrients they cycle into the field don't necessarily come from that field.

Don't get me wrong. If throwing a little 10-10-10 on a tiny plot is working for you, by all means, go for it. My approach has evolved over time and continues to evolve. We've got a nearly new 2-bottom plow sitting and rusting at our camp. It was not easy to change my thinking and it took time. Wherever you are on your journey, enjoy it. While I pass on my experiences (to thank those who I learned from), everyone has to figure out what works for them.

Thanks,

Jack