An early wakeup - Jujube and Persimmon -Transferred from QDMA forum

[yoderjac]

Jack
Can you bark graft Japanese scions onto an American 'simmon trunk?

-fsh

yes you can

Jack
Can you bark graft Japanese scions onto an American 'simmon trunk?

-fsh

Todd is right. Virginiana is often used as a rootstock for oriental persimmons. When I was first looking at them I was considering this. I could cut off the root stalk out of a deer's reach and graft high. The problem I found is that the oriental persimmons don't fall from the tree so I abandoned the idea.

There is a hybrid between Virginiana and Kaki called Nikita's Gift that I have seen conflicting reports of whether they fall from the tree or not. Some folks with them say the do and others say the do not. So they are the only non-American I'm working with. All of the persimmons in this thread were grafted with Nikita's Gift.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I just lost a second NG persimmon graft from my high confidence group. Evidently late failure is not that uncommon.

 

[yoderjac]

Weird---obviously there is something up the NG scions that make them very difficult to graft.

Maybe. It could be that the fact that Nikita's Gift is a Kaki x Virginiana that it is less compatible that straight American persimmon scions. However, folks regularly graft straight Kaki to Virginiana, so I'm not sure this is a compatibility issue. There is not doubt in my mind that NG scions degrade much quicker with the same storage technique than American persimmons.

As I understand it, most folks think persimmons are fairly hard to bench graft compared to other species. I also don't discount that my poor grafting technique is playing a factor here too.

It looks like I have a third from my high confidence group that is looking iffy. I think part of the issue is simply that I was a little too quick to move a tree from "Promising" to "High Confidence".

If I had to guess, I would say there is some connection between the scion and rootstock for each of the trees that failed, but not a good connection. Enough nutrients make it to the scion to begin growth but eventually the rate of growth exceed what the connection can provide and the scion fails.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I wonder if you pruned off say 50% of the new growth on the scion if that would give more energy in finishing the bonding with the rootstock and less energy into actually growing the scion? Maybe even grafting a little higher and not pruning off any growth on the actual rootstock?

Along those lines of thinking, perhaps fewer buds might help. I would think it is more the rootstock cambium growing to bond with the scion than the other way around. I think the energy in the scion is related to size. Fewer buds would mean more scion energy could be direct toward fewer buds meaning more leaves sooner to collect energy.

As far as energy from the scion going to bonding, if that were the case, I would expect to see similar poor results with bark grafting. I think on reason bark grafting in the field works so well is that cambium contact is almost guaranteed (no alignment issues) and the root stock has so much more energy.

They do leave nurse branches in some situations, but I think that can be problematic. Just like water takes the path of least resistance, something similar seems to happen with plants. I notice when several buds turn green and one or two open first, the tree stops feeding the others and puts its energy into those. Leaving a nurse branch would keep the rootstock alive longer for a bond to form, but not the scion. I would think in small containerized plants with limited rootstock energy, it would steal energy from the scion. In fact with field bark grafting of pecans, they leave a nurse branch for the opposite purpose to govern scion growth. Long after the scion dies, my rootstock keep producing growth below the graft. Once I'm sure the scion is dead, I let it grow.

I'm hoping to get to the farm next week to collect scions. I would use some of them to retry grafting some of the failed ones.

By the way, just as a side note: One reason my overall success rate may be down may have nothing to do with grafting. I mentioned that I only had about 10 that were of grafting size. Those were kept in the garage mulched in boxes until I brought them in. Many of the small ones were mulched in outside. Even with the mulch, some seemed frozen pretty solid. I guess the spot they were in got a lot of rain collected. At any rate, I left one of the small ones as a control and did not graft it. It still has not shown any signs of life and is probably dead from root damage. That could easily be the case with some of the smaller trees that I grafted. So, some may have been dead rootstock.

Even so, right now I seem to be on track for about +/- 10 of the 24 that will take. I'm happy with that.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Just thought I'd provide an update on the Jujube Grafting:

The pot in the foreground is Globe on Tigertooth. You can see a little green in the lower bud. It is just starting to green-up.

The next one is Admiral Wilkes on Tigertooth. You can see it has taken off much faster.

The third one shows no signs of green-up yet. It is Shanxi Li on Tigertooth.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

More persimmon grafting today. I used the various American persimmon scions I harvested yesterday from the farm to re-graft all of the failed Nikita's Gift grafts. Time will tell how well they work. Hopefully the rootstock has not expended all of its energy trying to accommodate the first try scion.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

In a previous post I mentioned that one of the small persimmons I brought in had been mulched in outside in the 1 gal RB2 and I was concerned that it was killed by root freezing since the area it was mulched in got quite wet.

I mentioned in that post on 3/9 that it showed no signs of leafing out. When I checked it out today, that changed. It has begun to leaf out. So, it looks like even it there was root damage, it was not enough to kill them, so that is no longer much of an excuse for failed grafts.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,

Good to hear it leafed out. I have persimmons I overwintered outside.

Hope some of mine make it through. Recently had 11 inches of snow and ice with two different storm systems.

Plant life and root life can be pretty tough.

wbpdeer

Wayne,

Above the ground, they are very tough. When planted, they do well because the minimum underground temperature is limited. The issue is storing them in containers above ground. Last year when I first tried this, I did not mulch in any of my RM2s Only a few of my persimmons leafed out.

This year, I tried two methods. One was putting the containers in cardboard boxes and surrounding them with mulch and storing them in my unheated garage. The second method was to put them in to a flower box outside next to my foundation and mulch them in there. The problem was that I had a rain gutter clog and overflow into that box. So, when we had a hard freeze the mulch was wet. Those containers seemed frozen hard as a rock when I brought them in.

You are right, it is amazing how virulent plant life can be. However, when I graft, I'm causing major trauma to the seedling. I want them to be strong and healthy going into that, not recovering from root damage.

Based on my results so far, I'd say the garage method was favorable.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Although my success rate with bench grafting Nikita's Gift has not been great, those that took early are doing well. The tallest one (in the background) is 26" above the soil line.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack
Can you bark graft Japanese scions onto an American 'simmon trunk?

-fsh

Looking good Jack. Congrats on the success

I now have no idea when to give up on a graft. This little tree was grafted back in my first week or so of grafting. It started producing growth below the graft. I kept removing it to force energy into the scion. I finally gave up on it and decided to re-graft it. Rather than grafting right a way, I decided to just let the growth below the scion develop. I figured I would have a better chance if I let it leaf out and got some energy back into the root system.

Low and behold, when I checked it today, I found new growth above the graft. I wasn't sure what to do. I considered removing all of the growth below the graft, but I thought it may be doing some good. I finally decided to remove some of the leaves from the stem but leave a few.

Here is the pic:

Now I don't know what to say. I'm not sure there is any way to decide when to give up on a graft without being invasive.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

smart move not removing the graft!

Only if lucky/lazy = smart :D

 

[yoderjac]

A couple of my re-grafted persimmons are starting to take. One of DogDoc's November scions has caught fire.

On the bad news side, I think I'm going to lose the globe jujube graft:

It looks like the growth is starting to wilt which generally indicates the scion is not getting enough energy from the root system and is running out of its own.

The Admiral Wilkes graft behind it is still looking good. I'm pretty sure the Shanxi Li is not going to take. It has no signs of life.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

time to put it in a large zip loc bag, clear , jump the humidity up to reduce its needs from uptake....... lower temp a bit by setting in a cooler corner of grow area, again reducing its need for uptake

Thanks for the tip!

 

[yoderjac]

Go dogdoc scions!!!:D

Lol, thats funny!

 

[yoderjac]

time to put it in a large zip loc bag, clear , jump the humidity up to reduce its needs from uptake....... lower temp a bit by setting in a cooler corner of grow area, again reducing its need for uptake

It is probably too late to save it, but here is a picture of what I did:

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Well, the Globe on Tigertooth graft failed. Mikmaze's idea really did prolong the death as long as possible. The lower branch shriveled and died in a matter of days without the tent. With the tent, the upper branch took 10 days and still wasn't quite dead when I decided to give up on it today.

I'm glad I did. When I tore it apart, it was clear there was no bonding between the scion and rootstock. The leaf-out was solely a function of scion energy. I cut it off below the scion but above a new tigertooth branch that had formed and got good green cambium. I had another Globe scion so I decided to re-graft there and leave the tigertooth branch as a nurse branch. That way if this graft fails too, I'll still have a tigertooth I can try grafting later in the field.

So, it looks like I'm 1 for 3 so far with Jujube bench grafting. The Shanxi Li on Tigertooth never leafed out. It has not put out any shoots from below the graft either, so it may be completely dead. I put it outside in hopes it will resprout.

The Admiral Wilkes on tigertooth is flourishing. Here is the latest picture:

It is hard to tell from the angle of the picture, but all of the green growth is from above the graft.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

All I can figure is that there was a fruit bud on one of the Nikita's Gift scions I bench grafted in the basement this winter.

I believe that is a persimmon forming on my deck!

Just to update on the Jujubes, only the Admiral Wilkes on Tigertooth has taken. The others eventually failed. I have since grafted some scions on to sour jujube root stock as part of an experiment, but so far, none of them have taken. Many of them were recently grafted, so it is too early to tell.

I am now grafting some of the persimmon seedlings that were too small this winter with scions leftover from field grafting.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Two of the Nikita's Gift scions I grafted this winter now have one persimmon on each of them. Here is an updated picture:

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Both of those Nikita's Gift trees dropped the persimmons when they were about ping pong ball sized. Most of the these trees grew like mad under lights but stalled out when I put them outside this spring. They are now actively growing again. Here is one:

I'm anxious to plant these when they go dormant.

 

[yoderjac]

Looks good. Anxious to see what they do in the field.