An early wakeup - Jujube and Persimmon -Transferred from QDMA forum

[yoderjac]

My jujube package finally arrived from Roger Meyer. I got both scions and sprouts for rootstock.

I whip & tongue grafted my 3 Tigertooth that I grew from root cuttings. They were fully leafed. out. They grafting "seemed" to go well, but only time will tell. The three varieties I grafted to the tigertooth were Admiral Wilkes, Globe, and Shanxi Li.

Although I got wild sprouts for rootstock, I don't plan to use them in the field because they tend to thicket through root propagation producing poor quality trees. Instead, I plan to use them for an experiment. I plan to graft the other varieties to them and grow them in 1 gal rootbuilder II containers. Once the grafts are well established, I'll transplant them to 3 gal containers, but I will plant them deep. I plan to place some water permeable landscaping cloth right below the graft. I'll then score the tree above the graft, apply rooting hormone, and fill the container with mix.

My hope is that the native root system will keep the tree alive. Because of the landscaping cloth, I would expect there to be less nutrition and water below the cloth than above. I hope this encourages rooting from above the graft. After a growing season, if I have above graft rooting, I clip off the original roots and have a variety growing on its own roots.

I considered grafting them tonight and then planting them in the 1 gal roobuilder IIs. Given my poor results with the persimmons, I decided to wait. Jujube scions keep very well, so I put them all in the fridge and planted the rootstock sprouts. I'm going to let them leaf out before grafting them.

I'll report back as this experiment continues...

 

[yoderjac]

Back to the persimmons... I think I might be having some marginal possible with a few of my attempts. In one of the previous post I showed my largest graft with a green bud on the scion that stalled and leaves starting below the graft. The scion bud on that tree has now completely stalled. I left the below graft leaves stay , It now has about 6" below the graft growth. I'm considering cutting it off and trying to graft again now that the sap is running.

I mentioned that I had a couple of trees with swelling scion buds and leaves starting below the graft. One is looking pretty good now:

The scion looks like it might be taking, so I decided to remove that growth below the graft to encourage energy into the scion.

I have one more with the scion buds in a similar state but with no growth below the graft. I have a few more with growth below the graft and nothing at the scion. I guess time will tell.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I would say that one had made it!! Good job.

 

[yoderjac]

I decided that the largest persimmon that had leafed out below the graft had enough nutrient flow for the bark to slip. I know Todd recommended a cleft graft, but I've had such good success with bark grafting outdoors, I really wanted to give it a try as a bench grafting technique. The rootstock is large for typical bench grafting, about the diameter of my middle finger but still a bit small for typical bark grafting so I tried modifying the technique a bit.

Here is the tree I started with:

Here it is after grafting:

The bark slipped easily so I think I have a chance of it taking. It looks the same as a normal bark graft but I made the cuts differently:

I don't bother taking the time to do this when I'm in the field, but I think this version reduces the gaps on the sides of the bark flap.

Time will tell....

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I attempted to bench graft 25 persimmons. So far, it looks like 3 of them have a good chance of taking:

3 out of 25 is a pretty poor success rate, but that is probably not a fair measure. I would guess about 10 of the 25 were of recommended grafting diameter. The rest were and attempt to see how small I could go. Still, 3 out of 10 is not great success.

Some failure may be due to poor execution and alignment on my part with the W&T grafts. I wonder how much had to do with that and how much was just the difficulty of grafting dormant seedlings. In addition to the one in the previous post, I have a few other small ones that leafed out below the graft. I'm thinking about making a second attempt at them after they grow a bit more. If the one in the previous post and a couple of them work, I think I'll let my seedlings leaf out before grafting in the future. I know the reason we have to wait to bark graft is that we need bark slippage, however, I wonder if some of the success has to do with the rootstock being ahead of the scion.

With dormant grafting, we are hoping the scion has enough energy to survive until the graft knits. That problem goes away after leaf-out. The rootstock is ready to go as soon as you attach the scion. The only issue here is keeping the scions alive until you graft. These Nikita's Gift scions are the only persimmon scions I've had that I've had a hard time keeping. Most fully American persimmon scions keep well.

I'll keep updating this thread as thins progress with the Persimmons and Jujube bench grafting...

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

i collected a bunch or apple and pear scions but haven't collected any persimmons yet. They are always so late to come out of dormancy but we have been having some beautiful days with highs in the upper 60's I was afraid if I waited any longer on the apple and pears they might just start budding out.

Grafts look good. Keep us updated for sure.

todd

 

[yoderjac]

I got a surprise today that has me rethinking things when it comes to the persimmon grafting. As you know from previous posts, I had some of my seedlings leaf out below the graft. I decided to give a couple of these a second try at grafting. When I grafted the large one yesterday and removed the parafilm, I found the scion was clearly dead and the graft had failed. The same was true with the first one I grafted today. So far, all was as expected. In both of these cases, the scion buds swelled and then stalled.

Next I decided to graft a third one. This was a smaller one that was cleft grafted. The buds on the scion did nothing, but it had grown a stem with leaves from below the graft.

When I removed the parafilm from this one, I wasn't particularly gently. I removed the growth below the graft as I proceeded. When I took the parafilm off and looked at the graft, it looked like it had knitted. Now I may have disturbed it removing the parafilm and killed it, but I was amazed that it seemed to have knitted yet the scion buds showed no signs of life and there was significant growth below the graft.

This particular scion had several buds including a terminal bud. I decided before going further I would check the scion. I cut the scion off just below the terminal bud and to my surprise, it was alive and green! At that point I put a little glue on the cut to seal it and decided to just let that seedling go as-is for a bit longer to see what happens.

I guess I was assuming that growth below the graft with no scion bud development means the graft didn't take. Perhaps that is not the case.

I'm glad that I did not transplant more of these trees to 3 gal RMII containers before grafting since the few I did transplant have not yet taken. As the few seedlings in the 1 gal RMIIs are beginning to take and leaf out, I plan to transplant them. I transplanted the first two of them today. I want to watch them for a few days to make sure the transplant did not shock them too much. If they seem fine in a few days, I'll transplant others that have taken.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I just thought I'd post an updated picture of there that I'm pretty sure have taken. I've transplanted these into 3 gal RB2s:

I have two more that I'm fairly confident in. If things progress as I hope, I'll transplant them in a few days.

I still have quite a few producing leaves below the graft that I plan to wait and watch for a while.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Things are looking better than I thought when it comes to the persimmon bench grafting. A few more are now far enough along for me to be confident enough they have taken to transplant them to the 3 gal RB2s. I'm now up to 6 that look good to go. I have 2 more that are a day or two away from transplanting if they keep progressing at their current rate. I have a few more that show promise.

I also have quite a few that are leafing out below the graft. As I said in a previous post, I learned that this does not necessarily mean the graft has failed. I confirmed that again today. I decided to see if I could re-graft a few that were leafing out below the graft.

Unlike last time, I decided to check to see if the scion was alive before removing any parafilm. Instead, I used my loppers and cut off the top of the scion. On 2 out of the 3 I tried, the scion was still green and alive. So, I simply put a piece of parafilm back over the cut and put them back to give them more time.

I finally found one with the scion dead. I just started at the top lopping off little by little making sure it was dead. So, I decided to re-graft this one.

I decided to try a new bench grafting technique that I made up especially for persimmons. I don't know if it will work, but I will document it on a new thread: http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?p=759104#post759104

By the way, the one re-bark grafted in a previous post has small buds starting to get green on the scion.

 

[yoderjac]

Things are looking up. I transplanted 1 more today. I now have 7 that I am confident enough that are taking to transplant into the 3 gal RB2s. I have 2 more that are probable and will likely get transplanted in the next few days. The real good news is that I'm suddenly seeing quite a few more with buds starting to turn a little green. I may end up with better success than I thought when it is all said and done.

Today's transplant was a real confirmation of lessons learned:

1) Sprouts below the graft don't mean it didn't take.

2) Have more patience.

This one was on the ratty edge of me having enough confidence to transplant. The thing that pushed me over the edge was the fact that this tree was planted late 2 summers ago. I failed to mulch in my rootmaker trees that winter to protect the root system. I learned a good lesson. I tried to bring those trees in and graft some of them last winter. They were very small to start with plus, although I didn't know it at the time, the root systems were likely damaged. Very few even leafed out. This particular tree was one where the top growth completely died, but it produced a new sprout from the root system in the late spring.

So, the main stem was not growing from the middle of the 1 gal RB2, but instead from near one edge. I decided to transplant it even though it is on the ratty edge of my confidence level to get the tree centered in the new pot.

Ok, that is the background of this three. Now for the lessons learned example.

This tree was to small for W&T so I used a wedge graft. It showed absolutes no signs of the scion taking. It sprouted two branches below the graft. I just left them grow for a while to ensure the sap was flowing before trying to graft it again. Those sprouts were about 3" tall. I had just re-grafted two other tree where the scion had died and I was going to re-graft this one.

I removed the new growth below the graft and started to remove the parafilm when I noticed that the graft joint seemed to have knitted. When I saw this, I began to wonder so I cut the scion off below the terminal bud and sure enough the cambium layer was green. I decided to stop at that point and wait and watch.

If you look at the tree in the picture, you can see where I removed the parafilm down near the graft and where I cut off the top bud. You can see it is now leafing out from the next bud on the scion.

I'm very lucky that all the messing I did with this tree did not kill it, but it looks like it is now on my success list...

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack, are you using a rooting hormone with your grafts?

Yes. When I started looking into it, I found some studies showing that it increases success by as high as 30% with some trees. I found nothing on persimmons specifically. In order for a graft to take it needs to callus. The active ingredients in rooting hormone promotes callusing. I started using it first when bark grafting in the field. Success rates are so high there to start with I'm not sure it mattered.

I've been told persimmons are hard to bench graft. None of the studies I saw on using it for grafting showed any negative effect. The range seemed to be no-difference to a high of 30% increased success rate. Since it is so inexpensive and I have it on hand and it takes so little, I decided to use it on all my bench grafts.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack, are you using a rooting hormone with your grafts?

Yes. When I started looking into it, I found some studies showing that it increases success by as high as 30% with some trees. I found nothing on persimmons specifically. In order for a graft to take it needs to callus. The active ingredients in rooting hormone promotes callusing. I started using it first when bark grafting in the field. Success rates are so high there to start with I'm not sure it mattered.

I've been told persimmons are hard to bench graft. None of the studies I saw on using it for grafting showed any negative effect. The range seemed to be no-difference to a high of 30% increased success rate. Since it is so inexpensive and I have it on hand and it takes so little, I decided to use it on all my bench grafts.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I'm not an apple guy, but I believe apples are easy to graft. It does not surprise me that results with apples were inconclusive. That was my experience with bark grafting persimmons in the field. The success rates are so high that the rooting hormone seemed to make no difference.

My take is this. Many things have to happen for a graft to take. The most critical is cambium contact between rootstock and scion. Another factor is forming a callus. I presume some trees do this more readily than others. The theory behind using a little rooting hormone on a graft is that it promotes this callusing. If you are working with a tree species that calluses readily on its own, I doubt rooting hormone has much effect. I'm guessing it is trees that are slower to callus that can benefit.

Thanks,

jack

 

[yoderjac]

I think apples are one of the easiest trees to graft. As long as I have a viable scion and get some decent Cambium contact your good to go.

 

[yoderjac]

I did some counting and regrafting today. Here is where the persimmons currently stand.

I started bringing in 25 persimmons. I kept 1 as a control to see roughly when they would leaf-out and grafted the other 24 with Nikita's Gift scions. As of today, I have 10 that I consider high confidence of success. I have 4 more that look promising. I have 10 others that show no signs of success. Some of the 10 were regrafted, so it is too early to tell. I also took a close look at 3 of the ten today and judged them as failed. I started slowly snipping of the scion bud by bud looking for signs of life. All three were dead. I regrafted those three. They were all small. I used a wedge graft on two of them and tried that tubular bark graft again on one. I don't know if it will have better success or not, but it is definitely hard to implement.

I'm a bit worried about the 3 Jujube I grafted. None of them show any signs of life yet. I hope I just need more patience.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Just thought I'd add a more recent picture of a few in my high confidence group:

 

[yoderjac]

those suckers are taking off.

look great and congrats on your early success.

todd

Thanks Todd. One note on the Jujube. I'm getting a bit worried since they show now signs of anything yet.

When I got my Jujube scions from Roger this year, I also ordered some wild jujube sprouts as rootstock for an experiment. The problem with using this as rootstock in a wildlife setting is that it supposedly can form root suckers easily up to 30' from the tree and will thicket with low quality wild trees with poor if any fruit unless you keep the area bushhogged. Anytime I use a non-native like Jujube I worry about invasiveness.

This is why I started with Tigertooth grown on its own roots and am propagating that and grafting to it as a start. Since it seem so hard to start Tigertooth from root cuttings, I'm thinking about other options.

My idea is to graft to native root stock in 1 gal containers. Once the grafts are well established, my plan is wrap a second 1 gal container around the first to make it taller. I would fill with mix to just below the graft and then place a gas and water permeable piece of landscaping cloth over the mix. I would then scrap some bark off of the trunk above the graft in vertical strips and apply rooting hormone and fill with more mix.

My theory is that the wild root stock would provide enough nutrition to keep the tree alive. However, the soil above the landscape cloth would have more water an nutrition available. I would hope this would further encourage roots to form above the graft. If this occurs, I will open up the rootbuilder II and cut the tree off just above the graft but below the new roots. I'd transplant into a 3 gal container for 1 growing season. If this works it will give me any variety I want on its own roots.

So, that is the reason I got the wild rootstock. At any rate, the roots were already cut back pretty hard when I received it and I had to prune back some of them even further to get them in 1 gal RB2s. I was a little worried they may not make it.

Today, I saw the first signs of green up. Admittedly, this is probably just stored energy, but it is good to see anyway.

Thanks,

jack

 

[yoderjac]

Back when I first grafted the persimmon seedlings, I used both W&T and wedge grafts. With some of them I just used parafilm-M to both protect the scion and also to secure the graft. With others, I used parafilm-M to protect the scion and electrical tape to secure the graft.

I've had great success using electrical tape when bark grafting persimmons in the field. It is much easier to apply than grafting rubbers and the fact that it stretches a bit helps put good pressure on the graft which is an important factor when bark grafting native rootstock in the field.

At any rate, I was just sitting looking at my grafts today and I noticed something. Of the 10 grafts in my high confidence group, only 2 of them have electrical tape on them. With the other 8 the graft is secured with parafilm-M only. I was a bit surprised. None of this was done as an attempt to compare the two, so there is no hard data, just an anecdotal observation. I then started looking more closely at the actual graft locations on each seedling. I noticed that the parafilm-M had ripped along each graft line. It makes me wonder if the electrical tape restricts something that the graft needs to heal.

Another thing I noticed is that the cleft grafts may have done just as well or better than the W&T grafts. I would have expected the opposite since the W&T grafts were all done on the largest rootstock and the cleft grafts were done on rootstock deemed too narrow to W&T graft.

I just thought I'd pass along these observations for what they are worth...

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Well, my high confidence level was evidently not quite a high enough standard. I lost my first persimmon from that group. It just goes to show you can have failures much later. The good news is that I've added a few more to the high confidence category.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Very interesting read Jack, thanks. I am always amazed at the determination and dedication of some of you hard core tree guys. And I appreciate your willingness to share the info. I can see myself giving grafting a try one of these years.

I'm glad you find it useful. I'm still learning as I go. I've learned so much from guys ahead of me, I'm happy to pass on anything I figure out to others.