An early wakeup - Jujube and Persimmon -Transferred from QDMA forum

[yoderjac]

More good and bad news for me, but mostly bad. The second persimmon with growth at the top of the stem shown in the previous pictures had the leaves turn black and shrivel. On the up side, the one that has the two side branches is doing great.

More on the bad news side, I have not seen any top growth from the Jujube root cuttings I planted with the sand back at Christmas time. I was scratching my head as to why or if I just need more patience. As I was thinking about my process, I realized my mistake. I used dip-n-grow this year instead of the powdered rooting hormone. I forgot it was concentrate and didn't dilute it, so the application was way too strong. I did the same thing when planting the Jujube scions shown in the previous picture.

On the bright side, since I had such poor germination rates with my chestnuts due to technique changes this year that I have excess rootmaker tray capacity. So, I just ordered a pound of persimmon seeds. I planted over 500 persimmons last year, but I germinated them during summer and planted them directly out of the cells in September. I'm not sure what my survival rates will be. They may have been too small when winter set in. I'm not sure if my bad luck with the persimmons I brought indoors at Christmas is due to a lack of chill hours, the immaturity of the seedling when winter set in, or the shock from bringing them in from the cold.

The persimmons I'll be starting from seed now will be insurance in case my survival rates from last year were poor.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,

I have been following this thread and have strangely similar results with my persimmon seedlings. I think we both began warm up right around Christmas / New year. You can see from the picture that the persimmon on the right is looking pretty good right now, the one on the left not so interesting to look at. I have 4 I tried head starting this year, the stems from all four still appear to be green and alive but only the one shown has produced any sort of new vegetation.

I have a hypothesis or maybe theories that maybe you or someone else can refute or make comment to. There is in no way anything scientific about this but I have began to ask myself these questions.

# 1 - Could the difference be male vs female?

# 2 - Could the difference be higher cold tolerance between the individual seedlings. Meaning the ones that have not budded out are more cold tolerant thereby requiring more cold hours which may or may not have been met before we started them indoors whereas the less cold tolerant ones were prepared to start growing earlier in a warmer climate with fewer chill hours ?

# 3 - They are just fickle trees when young and it's just poor results from trying to show up mother nature by starting them early?

The 4 I have came bareroot stock from a supplier in Georgia but does that mean they are going to automatically have the same DNA from one to the other regarding cold tolerance? I realize my Georgia stock may not fair well here in MI even though they were marked as zone 5-9, they are just straight run American persimmon. I have others coming in spring from a different vendor ( MDC ) I plan to plant out but I was curious to give a few a try indoors as a learning experience.

Thanks for the pics. If you are in NY, your trees likely got more chill hours than mine. Also, your trees appear to be older than mine. Most of mine are only about 6" tall. I did not get mine germinated until mid summer. It is hard to see scale in your pic, but yours look like they had a full growing season before they went dormant.

I doubt there is any sex related effects at this age. It could be mine did not survive going dormant because they were so young. If this is the case, the 500 I planted at the farm last September will be toast. That is why I just ordered more seed so I can plant some next spring and have all summer to grow before they go dormant.

One more possibility, and I think it is more likely, is shock. As I understand it, sometimes if you plant a bare root persimmon in early spring, because of the transplant shock, it may not green up until very late and sometimes not at all. The attribute this to the shock of transplanting it. I did not really acclimate my plants when I brought them in at Christmas. I didn't think that was necessary with dormant plants. Is it possible that that sudden warmth shocked the plants causing them to stay dormant for more heat units that normal? Perhaps.

One the up side, another persimmon just opened some tiny green leaves. These look similar to the other trees that eventually turned black and shriveled up. It will be interesting to watch what happens to this one.

As far as your trees from GA, it really depends on the strain. The 60 chromosome trees that are native to the south are not as cold hardy as the 90 chromosome trees native further north and in the mid-west. However, If the nursery in GA was selling the 90 chromosome northern strain (which can be grown successfully in the south) you will probably be OK with the rated zones.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Here is the latest pic of the only persimmon that woke up and is doing well:

Here is a pic of the new one referenced in the previous post:

Finally, I found one more new one today showing signs of breaking dormancy:

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I have not seen any green buds on any of the other 37 persimmons yet. I just couldn't take it any more. So, this afternoon, I decided to take drastic action to see what was going on. None of my persimmons are close to pencil size yet for grafting. However, one of the folks sending me scions sent a real small ones. While I was sure it would be very difficult to get cadmium to line up with such small trees, I decided that I would at least find out the state of the seedlings.

I cut the first seedling in half with loppers. It was dead; no green cambium and the pith was black. I kept cutting my way down toward the base. At about 2" from the soil I got a cut with green cambium. So, I found a scion the same diameter as that root stock. Just like the Jujube's I did last night, I used a saddle graft. I figured that you have 4 sides of cambium rather than 2 like you have with a whip and tongue so I had a better chance of getting alignment.

I figured "What the heck. They're gonna die anyway if I do nothing, so why not graft them even though they are too small. The worst that can happen is I kill them."

Next I picked another of the largest diameter persimmons and decided to try it again. I cut this one in half and got good green cambium. So, I worked my way to the top cutting off small chunks. When I got up to about 2/3rds of the original height of the tree, I got dead wood again. So, I found a good spot to graft and match a scion on the rootstock so I cut it back to that point and grafted it as well.

Now I was unsure of whether to continue or not. At 2/3 up before I hit deadwood, I thought they might be OK, and maybe I should wait. I decided to try one more. It was similar to the second tree when I cut it. So, now I have 3 tiny grafted persimmons.

I think I figured out what happened, and it doesn't bode well for all my persimmon work last year. We had a very cold winter for these parts this year. I believe that because I started the trees so late in the summer, the tops were so young when they went dormant that the cold weather killed the tops on many trees. Just how much was killed varies from tree to tree. Again, since these trees were so young, most of the largest buds were near the top. That sort of explains how some started to green up but could not get enough stored energy with dead wood that after starting to open, they withered and died. These 40 that I kept were some of the largest I had and, with the exception of a few fast growing trees, were the largest because they were the first germinated. So, the 500+ trees I planted in the field were smaller and likely suffered even more damage. I'm now thinking all those efforts were in vain and few if any will survive next spring. Well, that is my current theory anyway.

I was looking for another tree that that was large enough in diameter to have a prayer of survival after grafting when I found this:

I know the picture is a bit blurry (sorry) but if you look closely, you can see a small leaf that has emerged from the soil and is just starting to unfurl just to the right of the trunk. It appears that the root system on this tree is going to regenerate another seedling.

Given this development, I decided to stop grafting them for now and wait and watch a bit more.

Any thoughts?.....

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I was out of town for a couple days. When I got back and checked the plants tonight I got a few surprises. First, I found another persimmon trying to break dormancy:

If you look up a few posts, you will see that when I cut Jujube scions to trade, I took a few of the trimmings and planted them to see if they would root. I did a couple small ones in rootmaker cells and a couple larger ones in rootmaker 5" bags.

While it is not indicative of rooting, at least the cuttings are not dying yet. They are starting to leaf out. That is at least a good start. The question is whether the scions will run out of energy before roots develop.

See my first Jujube grafting thread for a follow-up on another propagation attempt: http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62996&highlight=jujube

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I pruned my pear trees 3 weeks ago and decided to try to root some pear cuttings. i have 6 scions i am trying to root. I'm actually doing it in water bottles. I cut the the water bottle in half and then tape it back together to make a little green house effect. I have two already making a little top growth but all are still green. It's been 3 weeks so I pulled one today and sure enough have some really small roots developing. I don't know if they will make it but it's fun trying.

good luck with your cuttings.
todd

BTW--when you germinated your persimmons by seed how long did it take for the shell of the seed to finally pop off? I've had seeds germinated now for 2 weeks and they are growing but the shell of the seed is still stuck to the top of the plant.

That is great news on your pears! As for the persimmons, some of mine never did fall off. There were some where I found the hull stuck to lower leaves. I was careful and gently removed a few of them that stayed on longer than most. How long they stay on may depend on your conditions. I would simply watch how your do. If you have some that are stuck on longer than the average, you might try to gently remove a few. I would not remove them early. I think they need protection from the direct light for a bit when they are young.

 

[yoderjac]

I was at the farm today to frost seed and I picked up a couple more Jujube roots. When I got black, I made cuttings and planted them in sand. Hopefully I got the right dilution of Dip-N-Grow and didn't kill them.

I was talking to someone about the persimmon dilemma. He suggested that those that had the tops killed would simply regenerate new main leaders from the root system like the one that I seed starting.

Wanting a back-up plan, I planted 3 gross of persimmon seeds in flats tonight!

 

[yoderjac]

I tried grafting a few more persimmons last night. I doubt any will take. It looks like things are getting worse as the stems seem to be dead closer and closer to the soil.

On the up side, the guy who told me they will send up new shoots seems to be right. A few more have started to do that.

So right now:

Brought 40 persimmons in at Christmas.

4 or 10% have produced stable top growth on the original stem.

Another 3 or 7.5% have started to produce a new shoot but they are not large enough yet to know for sure they will take.

I've attempted to graft 6 of them but the jury is still out on those as well.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Just a couple quick picture updates fro those Jujube scions I'm trying to root:

There is still no way to know if roots are forming but at least there is no leaf wilt yet which means success is still possible...

 

[yoderjac]

amazing how much energy is stored in those scions. I'm always tempted to give a little tug to see if there is any resistance. I did some cuttings in a clear water bottle just so I could maybe see some roots.

Yes, that amazes me as well. Both root cuttings and dormant wood cuttings fooled me when I first started. Dormant wood cutting leaf out and look great then, if roots don't start, they wilt an die. I got all excited then let down. Root cuttings worked just the opposite. They did nothing and I gave up on them. I just didn't get around to tossing them out and they sat with my other trees in the cells. Well after I thought they were dead, they produced top growth. Most that produced top growth made it.

So, I'm not too excited about the scions yet...

 

[yoderjac]

If you look closely at the picture above, you will see that some of the upper leaves are starting to wilt slightly compared to the last pic I posted. I presume this is the scion in the early stages of running out of energy.

Who know if any rooting is developing below the media surface. If it is, it is likely pretty small at this point.

You can also see in the pic that the lower leaves are still in nice shape. Here is my question. Is that upper portion of the scion a net asset or liability as far as energy is concerned? Would pruning it reduce the energy requirements or would the injury of pruning require more energy to heal than any energy possibly saved by removing it?

Any thought on the subject?

 

[yoderjac]

Just thought I'd provide a quick update on the persimmons. Only 4 of the 40 leafed out. I don't expect any more to leaf out. However, a number of them have started producing new top growth from the root systems. I'm not sure how many will completely die and how many will eventually produce top growth from the roots.

On 3/15 I planted 3 gross of persimmon seeds in flats. The first 3 of them emerged today and I transplanted them into rootmaker cells. Hopefully I'm early enough so that these will be well hardened in time for next winter and I won't have this same issue.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

If you look closely at the picture above, you will see that some of the upper leaves are starting to wilt slightly compared to the last pic I posted. I presume this is the scion in the early stages of running out of energy.

Who know if any rooting is developing below the media surface. If it is, it is likely pretty small at this point.

You can also see in the pic that the lower leaves are still in nice shape. Here is my question. Is that upper portion of the scion a net asset or liability as far as energy is concerned? Would pruning it reduce the energy requirements or would the injury of pruning require more energy to heal than any energy possibly saved by removing it?

Any thought on the subject?

Not hearing any advise on the topic, I decided to try pruning. I figured the upper part was not transporting any thing between leaves and roots since the leaves had mostly withered. I figured it was more wood for the root system (if there are any down there yet) to support that was not contributing anything. I went ahead and sealed the cut after pruning. Here is the pic after pruning:

The two remaining new branches you can see are about 1" and 3/4" respectively with several leaves on each.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I think that is a good idea. I did the same on a couple of my pear cuttings. I've already lost one so far and still have 5 left. I don't know if they are going to make it or not. One of them had some very fine roots starting a couple of weeks ago but I haven't checked them since if fear of harming the roots.

I did some japanese honeysuckle cuttings in sand and had 100% success but much different than a tree.

Hope yours make it.

todd

I played with Jap honeysuckle several years ago. I also got 100%. I finally abandoned the idea of propagating it. It has great nutritional properties and deer love it, but it is invasive. I found that I have so much of it that grows naturally when we timber that it didn't make sense for me to take up valuable food plot space with a plant that is ubiquitous on my property.

I'm afraid to check my roots for the same reason. I figure they will either grow or die...

 

[yoderjac]

Time for an update. Most of the scions that I tried to root died. There is one that still had some green leaves that I did transplant from a cell to a 1 gal RB2 pot, but the rest are toast. They just leafed out based on the energy from the scion and then crapped out. I pulled a couple and saw no evidence of roots.

On the other hand, I had given up on the root cuttings. Just for background so you don't have to re-read the entire thread, I started some root cuttings last winter but forgot to dilute the rooting hormone and likely killed them. Then later I took some more root cuttings when I collected scions. This time I got the hormone diluted properly. Finally, now that it is almost June, I see my first signs of success:

This is a close up pic. The vertical sticks are large tooth picks. If you look close, you can see some vegetation starting near one of them. I have two of these just now starting. My fingers are crossed!

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Still only two showing top growth, but they are a bit more obvious now:

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Here is another picture update of the Jujube started from root cuttings:

If you look very closely between the two with top growth, you can see a little green spot in the sand. I believe this is a third Jujube trying to break through.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

if those were just scions I would be hesitant to call that a success but for root cuttings I think this is a success.

good job
todd

Even with root cuttings, I'm not ready to declare victory yet. This is a level of success, but far from complete. Last year, I had several get 3" tall and then die.

I tried something different this year and used sand. I will need to transplant these. It is tricky. If I leave them in the flat too long, they will be nutritionally deprived. If I try to transplant them too soon, the roots could be too delicate and be damaged.

Jujube's are expensive. I spent close to $50 per tree. I'm now trying to amortize that investment over more trees each year! :D

 

[yoderjac]

Earlier in this thread, you will see I foolishly tried to start Jujube from dormant stem cuttings. Just like any scion, they used the energy in the scion to leaf out and looked great. After a couple months, the leaves turned brown and died as the scions were depleted of energy. When I dug them up, there was no evidence of rooting at all.

One scion seemed to hang in there much longer than others. I was hopeful that I got lucky. Finally in mid-August, the leaves on that scion withered and died.

Lazy guy that I am, I didn't get around to doing anything with it and it just got watered because it was next to the other containers with persimmon seedlings after it "died".

Then today, I happened to look at it closely and found this:

That is a new green leaf starting! I can not believe this is coming from the energy in the scion. There must be some roots forming for this to happen.

Do you agree?

I only got 2 trees from the root cutting I planted this year, but they are doing great!

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

yes--the scion would be dead this far along so I do believe you have some roots.

good job for not digging it up.

todd