bueller
Moderator
We are officially in bizarroland.
Tree Spud
5 year old buck +
Welcome to the new world order ... Big Brother ...
If TDM guys think they can avoid by cheating, not really. We own lake frontage and you would be amazed at the recorded history that the DNR has on 20' of lake frontage, right down to the boat registration #'s.
A 40 acre parcel and observed deer activity ... no problem. This was all before the introduction of Drones.
The DNR could implement property to property regs if they wanted. People have no idea how much recorded info that the DNR already has on their property.
If TDM guys think they can avoid by cheating, not really. We own lake frontage and you would be amazed at the recorded history that the DNR has on 20' of lake frontage, right down to the boat registration #'s.
A 40 acre parcel and observed deer activity ... no problem. This was all before the introduction of Drones.
The DNR could implement property to property regs if they wanted. People have no idea how much recorded info that the DNR already has on their property.
wiscwhip
5 year old buck +
What the he11 should they do if guys refuse to keep the herd under control? Let the geniuses have their 80 dpsm and the health of the habitat be damned? Not going to happen. The CDACS had their chance and the only high dpsm county that did the right thing was Buffalo, everyone else left them no choice.
gwm
5 year old buck +
Why have CDAC at all then?
Tree Spud
5 year old buck +
Working with people to teach them how to go through the analysis so they develop their critical thinking skills so they realize their input is being incorporated is a democracy.
Giving people the allusion they have a say then disregarding their input over simply overriding them is a dictatorship.
If the criteria was to fire folks after the first mistake, the halls of the DNR would be pretty empty.
.
kabic
5 year old buck +
I liked that..reward the people who are trying to control the population. Probably not legal...
The department may not do any of the following:
4(a) Require a person who holds a license that authorizes the hunting of deer to
5take an antlerless deer before the person may take the person's first antlered deer
6under that license.
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Tree Spud
5 year old buck +
Yep! How about the DNR start treating Rec landowners with at least as much respect as they treat farmers?
Name me one program that is out there to support Rec land owners with 100+ acres to address deer & herd mgmt?
There are none ... the only policy is to reward farmers and penalize none farmland owners.
.
Steve Bartylla
5 year old buck +
I'm afraid trying get people to manage deer numbers is a lost cause on most. I went round and round on QDMA's site on their version of this thread, simply trying to communicate that several acts don't fit my definition of QDM (or even my version of TDM)
1) purposefully limiting food overwinter-early spring in an attempt to purposefully to drive deer off your ground from Dec-Sept (9-10 months of the year they're the neighbor's problem)
2) focusing "improvements" exclusively on sucking deer in during Oct & Nov
3) purposefully pushing does to the neighbors as a means of micro population control (instead of shooting them)
All I did was get a bunch of people to post links to Jeff's article on why you shouldn't offer summer food, others call me jealous/envious and make it look like I was trying to beat up on Bull. Way more argued those were legit QDM practices than not....And that's on a QDMA forum. I'm afraid the ship has sailed.
Dipper, I'm not a complete idiot. I know that trying to teach people how to kill mature bucks and managing grounds for trophy production makes me part of the problem...HOWEVER, I've ALWAYS pushed for killing however many does one needs to in order to keep them at a healthy level and that include taking 50+ a year off of several pieces I was paid specifically to manage for trophies (32 does in 1 season is my record, I've arrowed 5 in one sit, emptying the entire quiver, more than once on those various grounds) and always stress creating habitat that helps year round deer health.
Here's the scary part to me. The people that are fanatical enough to be on these forums tend to be the ones that other hunters/managers look to for guidance. All of us have the high tendency to have more of an impact on the hunters we know than the average hunter...and the majority seems to think doing those things are not only QDM practices, but something to be strived for, spreading the idea to those that soak our words up as gospel
1) purposefully limiting food overwinter-early spring in an attempt to purposefully to drive deer off your ground from Dec-Sept (9-10 months of the year they're the neighbor's problem)
2) focusing "improvements" exclusively on sucking deer in during Oct & Nov
3) purposefully pushing does to the neighbors as a means of micro population control (instead of shooting them)
All I did was get a bunch of people to post links to Jeff's article on why you shouldn't offer summer food, others call me jealous/envious and make it look like I was trying to beat up on Bull. Way more argued those were legit QDM practices than not....And that's on a QDMA forum. I'm afraid the ship has sailed.
Dipper, I'm not a complete idiot. I know that trying to teach people how to kill mature bucks and managing grounds for trophy production makes me part of the problem...HOWEVER, I've ALWAYS pushed for killing however many does one needs to in order to keep them at a healthy level and that include taking 50+ a year off of several pieces I was paid specifically to manage for trophies (32 does in 1 season is my record, I've arrowed 5 in one sit, emptying the entire quiver, more than once on those various grounds) and always stress creating habitat that helps year round deer health.
Here's the scary part to me. The people that are fanatical enough to be on these forums tend to be the ones that other hunters/managers look to for guidance. All of us have the high tendency to have more of an impact on the hunters we know than the average hunter...and the majority seems to think doing those things are not only QDM practices, but something to be strived for, spreading the idea to those that soak our words up as gospel
bueller
Moderator
I noticed Jeff quoted Novemberforever in that article he wrote. I believe he is a good deer hunter and that he has knowledge/experience that can be useful to others, but I don't like his online tactics and personality. Sadly many others suck it up like piss warm beer at a frat party.
...in case i wasnt clear my comment was about Jeff, not NovFo
...in case i wasnt clear my comment was about Jeff, not NovFo
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shawnv
5 year old buck +
Reading the entire thread on Qdma and I do think people have a loose opinion on what QDM is. For some it's just not pulling the trigger on younger bucks with no consideration to land mgmt, for other's it's shooting a lot of does almost to the point of excess and for other's it's setting up the land just for the trophy. I think what is missing in any case as I stated before is common sense and observation.
I've read a lot of Jeff's stuff, not because I agree or disagree with it but because he put's out so much material that it give me topics to think about when I'm looking at my own situations. I honestly don't think he's against having does around and I know he has enough around his properties that he's shot a good number but at the same time I think he makes way more out of "doe factories" and buck stress that what happens in the real deer woods. Heck, I've hunted properties that had as many as 40-50 does bedding in a 15 acre woodlot that would also hold 7-10 bucks with 1/3-1/2 being mature. The bucks were bedding within a snowball's distance from the does and were not separated by a special pocket of cover, the only difference is that they would typically be the last ones to the field edge. I've also killed bucks who had primary bedding withing 20yds of a corn field and who's bed was right next to that of another mature buck and within a short distance of doe bedding. Those cases do not fit his model for how deer are supposed to live. To his credit, he knows how to set up to kill a big one and makes some good points to do so but I just don't think it has to be mutually exclusive what what Steve's view is.
With that said the question of should you shoot does or not and what nutrition to provide can easily be determined by a little boot leather and observing if the deer are eating everything in sight. From there you can conclude if you need to add more nutrition or do your part to reduce the population to balance it out the best you can and maybe a little of both (In the case on my farm, I need to keep letting them go another year). Other than that the only issue I can see by having too many does around is if there are so many that there is always does crossing too close to your entry and exit routes or one that will end up downwind of your set up. One thing is an absolute come late October and November, no does around, no bucks. With does having relatively small ranges I think you can really hurt yourself by wanting them to be located on the neighbors for most of the year and that is not a gamble I want to make.
Based on historical harvest numbers, it seems to me that they need to make tags free or very cheap and hunters will increase the doe kill in Waupaca. Maybe it won't happen in one season, maybe it takes three but that seems to be a rather reasonable approach opposed to doing something that will cause hunter resentment and may be detrimental to the economy from hunting dollars going elsewhere.
I've read a lot of Jeff's stuff, not because I agree or disagree with it but because he put's out so much material that it give me topics to think about when I'm looking at my own situations. I honestly don't think he's against having does around and I know he has enough around his properties that he's shot a good number but at the same time I think he makes way more out of "doe factories" and buck stress that what happens in the real deer woods. Heck, I've hunted properties that had as many as 40-50 does bedding in a 15 acre woodlot that would also hold 7-10 bucks with 1/3-1/2 being mature. The bucks were bedding within a snowball's distance from the does and were not separated by a special pocket of cover, the only difference is that they would typically be the last ones to the field edge. I've also killed bucks who had primary bedding withing 20yds of a corn field and who's bed was right next to that of another mature buck and within a short distance of doe bedding. Those cases do not fit his model for how deer are supposed to live. To his credit, he knows how to set up to kill a big one and makes some good points to do so but I just don't think it has to be mutually exclusive what what Steve's view is.
With that said the question of should you shoot does or not and what nutrition to provide can easily be determined by a little boot leather and observing if the deer are eating everything in sight. From there you can conclude if you need to add more nutrition or do your part to reduce the population to balance it out the best you can and maybe a little of both (In the case on my farm, I need to keep letting them go another year). Other than that the only issue I can see by having too many does around is if there are so many that there is always does crossing too close to your entry and exit routes or one that will end up downwind of your set up. One thing is an absolute come late October and November, no does around, no bucks. With does having relatively small ranges I think you can really hurt yourself by wanting them to be located on the neighbors for most of the year and that is not a gamble I want to make.
Based on historical harvest numbers, it seems to me that they need to make tags free or very cheap and hunters will increase the doe kill in Waupaca. Maybe it won't happen in one season, maybe it takes three but that seems to be a rather reasonable approach opposed to doing something that will cause hunter resentment and may be detrimental to the economy from hunting dollars going elsewhere.
bueller
Moderator
I don't know what the answer is but at least the counties with high dpsm have been identified and the problem is being addressed there instead of half the damn state at one time. If the doe slaughter does happen in Waupaca county it will be beneficial to some areas while other areas of the county will be taken down to dpsm levels like I see and that can be very frustrating at times.
Tree Spud
5 year old buck +
As I commented earlier, while our CDAC recommended "maintain", they are also pushing for some type of EAB to address the does.
Free tags won't have much if any impact, you need to change behavior by controlling the results.
Steve Bartylla
5 year old buck +
I think Jeff is a good hunter. I also think he makes a solid hunting plan. When it comes to population dynamics issues, seasonal range shifts, management beliefs, mature buck behavioral traits and those type of issues, a bunch of it just doesn't line up at all with my experiences or what a glut of scout cam data tells me every year on numerous properties
Tree Spud
5 year old buck +
Do you have a link where comments can be made?
bueller
Moderator
I just looked for it but can't find it. I'd imagine it will be up soon. They do have a new map though.
bueller
Moderator
As of last week the meeting minutes from when the CDAC's meet to set the preliminary quota and permit recommendations were not posted. They are available now http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/hunt/CDACFind.aspx. I can't believe that I just read the Juneau County CDAC had mixed feelings on whether or not to give a free antlerless tag in the FOREST zone :eek:. I thought those free tags were for farmland zones only.
bueller
Moderator
It's up now. Click on "provide comments" after going to this link http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/hunt/cdac.html
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