Which apple trees to plant?

[EarthySpirit]

Hi all, Im struggling to answer this question since there are a billion varieties. My Wildlife biologist said to find a couple hardy apple trees that will pollinate each other. Can you guys advise me on this? I'm in N KY, zone 6. I plan to plant about 16 trees, 8 in one food plot, and 8 in another, and 4 persimmons in each plot as well. Speaking of, I guess I need two varieties of persimmons as well to pollinate? Thanks for any help.

 

[Native Hunter]

Apples: The following will give you a pretty wide variety of drop times and good disease resistance. These are proven varieties in South Central KY. Don't plant just any apple in KY unless you want to be spraying and babying them to keep them alive. Get the wrong apple and you will never have any fruit on it without constant life support.

• Liberty
• Priscilla
• Arkansas Black
• Dozier Crab
• Yates
• Betsey Deaton
• Black Limbertwig

For persimmons, I would suggest:

• Topworking any existing male trees that aren't too large with female scions that cover a long drop period. For instance, an early variety is Morris Burton and a late variety is Deer Magnet. This is the best thing you can do to get persimmons fast.
• You can also set seedlings and start having fruit on the females in about 10+ years if all goes well. You can also topwork the males.
• You can buy grafted persimmons from the following places, but they are high dollar: Wildlife Group, Stark Brothers, Nolin River Nut Tree Nursery, Chestnut Hills Nursery and England's Orchard. Check out their web sites. Look at England's first.

Don't forget Pears: Deer love them and they are easier to grow than apples in KY. They are also faster fruiting than persimmons. My pears look supermarket quality without any spraying, but you have to get the right ones. Grafted pears can also be bought for about 1/2 the price of a grafted persimmon. Recommended Varieties:

• Kieffer
• Moonglow
• Ayers
• Several different ones that Wildlife Group sells that they advertise as fireblight resistant. Read the descriptions on the web site and decide which you want. Just make sure they are disease resistant.

Best wishes.

 

[yoderjac]

ACN has a good pollination chart on-line. The problem with domestic apples is that the require a lot of care (spraying, pruning, etc.). They can be susceptible to a lot of diseases. For that reason, they were low in my list for soft mast, but I recently began to include them in my program. Look for disease resistant varieties. GRIN has some information about disease resistance. In general, it seems that crabapples tend to be lower maintenance. They are prolific pollinators. They kind of fall into two classes, bird crabs and deer crabs. Bird crabs have small fruit, maybe cherry sized that my not even fall from the tree. Deer crabs have larger fruit.

When you buy a specific variety of apple, it will be grafted to some kind of rootstock. It is usually a clonal rootstock. The rootstock generally determines the size of the tree at maturity, dwarf, semi-dwarf, full size. Typically we don't want dwarf because the often can't support themselves when they have fruit help. Semi-dwarf can work for wildlife and the will produce fruit sooner than a full size tree. Generally full size trees are the most substantial but can be harder to maintain (reach). Some specific root stock will perform better in certain kinds of soils than others. In my case, I have heavy clay and M111 is the choice here. Ask local orchards what semi-dwarf rootstock they use.

You will get a lot of variety recommendations on here as there are a lot of apple guys. I just started using them a few years ago, so I can't really speak to the performance of specific varieties. My approach was to try to produce soft mast in volume. For that, I'm trying to use the most disease resistant varieties I can find, and completely ignoring maintenance. They may not produce as soon or as well as maintained trees, but they should eventually produce.

So, there are more considerations than simply variety, and I'm sure others will provide you a long list to consider.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Prof.Kent]

If your apples are for deer, I would ask local (KY) fruit tree growers which disease resistant apples hang long on the tree. Many varieties let apples fall when they ripen. Other trees hold their fruit and slowly drop them. Storms, wind, etc helps. I like my apples to hold firm until ripe and then slowly let them fall. Opossums and raccoons also knock them down to the ground. Birds will also cause damage to the fruit which will make them drop.
Varieties I am familiar with that would probably work well for you would be Golden Delicious, Rome, Golden Russet, Nova Easygro, & Gold Rush. Don't be afraid to plant a variety you like to eat. They deer don't need them all!

 

[Native Hunter]

Since someone has suggested Gold Rush, I thought you might like to see what it looks like in KY with no spraying. Best wishes Partick and proceed with caution.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Native Hunter has the KY. program down. He has a paradise at his place …………….. so I'd go with his recommendations.

 

[H20fwler]

I second the pears, great wildlife soft mast with many options.
Would also look into some good wildlife crabapple varieties.

Two good sources;
http://www.wildlifegroup.com/shop-for-pear-trees/
http://www.wildlifegroup.com/shop-for-apple-trees/

http://www.northernwhitetailcrabs.com/whitetail-tree-selections

 

[j-bird]

Take Native Hunters advice and run with it. Native is located in KY and has tons of experience.....you got the right guy to respond to your post...that's for certain! Other folks have good advice, but when you can get a "local"source with the knowledge he has....you got a resident expert. DO NOT BUY BOX STORE FRUIT TREES....unless you know specifically what you are buying and the root stock. Most will list what you are buying but no info on the root stock. Root stock determines how big the tree will get, how soon it will fruit and other growth aspects and favorable growing conditions. I made the mistake with box store apples......don''t do it. It's tempting....but don''t. Lots of good nurseries out there to use. I bought some trees from Turkey Creek (dolgo and chestnut crabs) and have been very happy with them so far......and will more than likely be buying more from them down the road. Getting into fruit trees can be very intimidating because of all the information....use us as a resource to make heads or tails of that info for you as this site has several fruit experts. Also be prepared to buy a $20 tree and dig a $20 hole! Proper protection of your fruit tree investment is well worth the money long term. Weed barrier, trunk protection, T-post, 5 feet tall browse cage and an ID TAG will seem expensive and you may consider cutting corners with these.....again....don''t do it. Do it right once.....or do it again later! If your budget won't support the costs, reduce your project size and add to it as funding allows. Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

[yoderjac]

Just a note on pears if you decide to go that route. My partner bought 4 trees that were labeled as Keiffer. Given the shape of the pears I doubt they were. They grew like mad vegetatively but took about 6 years to produce their first few pears. They were over 20' tall. They are now loaded every year. They are a great food source but not a hunting attractant. Our bow season starts in early October. They ripen in August and are all gone by early September.

Lessons learned: Make sure you buy from a reliable source and you know what the drop time is for the trees you are buying and that it achieves your objective.

They have made a great addition to our permaculture project, but my buddy had hoped to hunt over them.

Thanks,

jack

 

[Prof.Kent]

Take Native Hunters advice and run with it. Native is located in KY and has tons of experience.....you got the right guy to respond to your post...that's for certain! Other folks have good advice, but when you can get a "local"source with the knowledge he has....you got a resident expert. DO NOT BUY BOX STORE FRUIT TREES....unless you know specifically what you are buying and the root stock. Most will list what you are buying but no info on the root stock. Root stock determines how big the tree will get, how soon it will fruit and other growth aspects and favorable growing conditions. I made the mistake with box store apples......don''t do it. It's tempting....but don''t. Lots of good nurseries out there to use. I bought some trees from Turkey Creek (dolgo and chestnut crabs) and have been very happy with them so far......and will more than likely be buying more from them down the road. Getting into fruit trees can be very intimidating because of all the information....use us as a resource to make heads or tails of that info for you as this site has several fruit experts. Also be prepared to buy a $20 tree and dig a $20 hole! Proper protection of your fruit tree investment is well worth the money long term. Weed barrier, trunk protection, T-post, 5 feet tall browse cage and an ID TAG will seem expensive and you may consider cutting corners with these.....again....don''t do it. Do it right once.....or do it again later! If your budget won't support the costs, reduce your project size and add to it as funding allows. Rome wasn't built in a day.

All I can add to j-bird's advice is... j-bird is a stinkin' genius.
Well said.

 

[j-bird]

All I can add to j-bird's advice is... j-bird is a stinkin' genius.
Well said.

Thank you....

Kent....something happened in your post......somehow you added a word I don't think was at all in good taste......I think this is more appropriate....

"All I can add to j-bird's advice is... j-bird is a stinkin' genius. Well said." Yep....that's more like it!!!!

 

[Prof.Kent]

Thank you....

Kent....something happened in your post......somehow you added a word I don't think was at all in good taste......I think this is more appropriate....

"All I can add to j-bird's advice is... j-bird is a stinkin' genius. Well said." Yep....that's more like it!!!!

Stupid spell checker. :-)

 

[EarthySpirit]

Hey all, thank you so much for your feedback.. This is invaluable information. Wow, quite a lot to learn. I will take the tips and proceed, especially with Native Hunter’s advice as all are suggesting. Thank you again!!!

 

[EarthySpirit]

I plan to put some of them here.

 

[yoderjac]

I like to establish perennial clover in my tiny orchards. Once established, I just mow it as necessary. I still use a weed barrier in the cages but I like clover outside that.

 

[H20fwler]

I plan to put some of them here. View attachment 20634

Looks like a perfect spot for some fruit trees, I'll second what Jack said on going with clover for orchard ground cover and would mix in some forage chicory and maybe a little partridge pea with it.

 

[EarthySpirit]

Hearing all the feedback on here, and from the forestry department here in Kentucky, I am abandoning the Apple tree idea. I don't have the time, or money to maintain apple trees. I've about decided to go with persimmons and hazelnuts, because I hear they are much easier to to grow and maintain. This is what locals and the forestry people say, at least. What do you all think?

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

I don't know anything about persimmons, but I know deer love apples. I have a lot of hazelnuts and the deer would walk through a forest of hazelnuts to get to an apple tree. Each area is different though, but I wouldn't give up on the apple idea. Maybe just plant a couple, cage them and leave them alone. You might be pleasantly surprised. There are lots of wild apple trees growing that receive less care than that and they do great with a little luck.

 

[yoderjac]

Hearing all the feedback on here, and from the forestry department here in Kentucky, I am abandoning the Apple tree idea. I don't have the time, or money to maintain apple trees. I've about decided to go with persimmons and hazelnuts, because I hear they are much easier to to grow and maintain. This is what locals and the forestry people say, at least. What do you all think?

Persimmons are a very long term investment if you plant seedlings. They can take many years to produce fruit. They are dioecious and only female produce fruit. Deer love them. Avoid oriental persimmons (lotus & kaki) and focus on American persimmons for deer. Oriental can be astringent or non-astringent and don't fall from the tree when ripe. American persimmons are all astringent which protects them from tree climbing animals when they are developing. They typically fall from the tree when ripe giving deer an equal chance at them with tree climbing creatures.

You can ensure trees will produce fruit by grafting female scions to seedlings. Grafting seedlings will cut a few years off the time it takes to fruit, but it is still a long-term project. Since your are in native persimmon country, your best bet is to try working with what you have. Learn to identify persimmons. Find trees on your land in the 1" - 4" or so diameter. Cut them down and bark graft female scions to them. You can get your first persimmons in the third leaf after grafting. Since scions are free or inexpensive, it is the best bang for the buck I've seen with soft mast.

Another thing you can do if you have lots of native persimmon trees like me is to spread the drop time to feed deer. By using a mix of commercially named persimmon and wild persimmon scions, I'm trying to get trees that drop from late summer through February.

In my area, persimmons don't need much protection, but some folks have to protect theirs. I have to cage apple trees. You will need to see how deer relate to seedlings in your area. For grafting native trees, I cut them down about chest height so the grafts are out of easy reach of curious deer.

I tried hazelnuts. The nuts are generally used by other wildlife but deer browse them heavily. I lost most of mine to deer browse since I didn't have time to protect them.

If you decide to bark graft native trees you will want to read this thread: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/sex-change-operation-transfered-from-qdma-forum.5547/

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Native Hunter]

Hearing all the feedback on here, and from the forestry department here in Kentucky, I am abandoning the Apple tree idea. I don't have the time, or money to maintain apple trees. I've about decided to go with persimmons and hazelnuts, because I hear they are much easier to to grow and maintain. This is what locals and the forestry people say, at least. What do you all think?

As I have already indicated, apples are much harder here but not impossible. It takes some work and commitment, but without doing any spraying I have several trees that produce very well - and plenty good enough for providing deer food. They are also extremely healthy trees.

I think it comes down to how much you want it and how committed you are to it. For me, I want it badly enough that I'm willing to put in some effort to have it. If you plan on just going out and planting an apple tree and coming back in 5 years to see how its doing - then, yes, I agree with the KDOF. In that case, you will have wasted your money.

But with that said, you are going to have to do some work, even if you plant hazelnuts and persimmons. Hazelnuts do extremely well with limited sunlight, but they won't survive in a closed canopy forest. So plant hazelnuts and don't clean out around them in KY, and eventually they are shaded out. That's why the most common place I find them growing is in fence rows and the southern edges of the woods. Also, in some places the deer will just walk up and eat your bushes - so caging is a must.

Even if you set persimmon seedlings, you will need to keep the competition cleared back to some extent. They are very tough and can be nearly as tall as some of the typical climax forest trees in KY. However, I can't imagine them doing very well, and would expect very few to survive without some human intervention.

Bottom Line - There is no sure fire deer food tree without human intervention in this state. The mighty oak is the closest thing to it, because it is one of the largest and toughest climax forest trees. But plant a mighty oak where the cottonwoods or sycamores already have a head start on it (and walk away and do nothing), and it is doomed for failure too.

I do this because I love it. And when you love something, you won't accept failure as an option.

PS: Those guys at the KDOF know very little about apple trees. It isn't their area of expertise. They probably think every apple is something like a Honeycrisp or Gala that they have tried to grow at home and failed with. Trees like those are from the "Bowels of Apple Hell" in this state. Just starting with the right cultivars puts you way ahead of the game.

Best Wishes