Native and Non-Native Oaks

[Belo]

I'm about to start a smallish oak project on my property. It's 40 acres with about 20 acres of hardwoods and 20 of fruit orchard (apple, peach, plum and pear). Surrounded by agriculture (hundreds of acres of mostly corn with some soy).

My food plots don't attract a ton of attention with all the surrounding food sources and every deer I've killed over the last 4 years has been loaded with corn. Nonetheless I want to try and make my slice as attractive as possible and honestly I just really enjoy habitat management. I have good bedding and it's a nice transition and travel zone. I am under no delusions that I can hold any deer on such a small piece haha.

Anyhow, I have some chestnuts in the ground and want to plant 8 to 10 oaks in 2 different spots. I already ordered some sawtooth's to be shipped to me this spring. I contacted a local nursery over the winter too who felt pretty strongly against anything non-native. I am in upstate NY (region 5 or 6 I think). I want to plant some swamp oaks in a spot that is pretty low-lying and swampy during the spring.

Long way of asking what you all think of non-native oaks. I chose sawtooth because I should see earlier returns, understanding it's still many years out. Or is that taboo and should I cancel and replace with an oak native to the region? As far as trees, I'm planning on more pears, chestnuts and even some persimmons as well. A general ole country buffet over here.

thanks in advance

 

[SwampCat]

I have no advice, but I am impressed with someone who could take on a 20 acre orchard. I have about 25 trees - not acres - and they require more labor than me planting my 40 acres of food plots. Good luck!

 

[Belo]

I have no advice, but I am impressed with someone who could take on a 20 acre orchard. I have about 25 trees - not acres - and they require more labor than me planting my 40 acres of food plots. Good luck!

It's an old semi-commercial orchard and more than I can handle. At this point it's sort of trying to stop thing from completely falling apart and as some of the trees die off, I cut them down. Minimal spraying isn't helping the peaches. The apples are rocking though.

 

[The Fishman]

My advice would be to consider what you want the oak to do and provide for your property rather than whether the oak is native to your surrounding area. Will sawtooths even grow that far north? If they do grow that far north, I doubt they will produce acorns in the 5-6 years that everyone touts. Will the area be full sun? Sawtooths do not do well in shade or partial shade. Are you wanting to hunt the sawtooth acorn drop? Sawtooths tend to drop rather early in the fall. Will they drop acorns before hunting season? Sawtooths tend to keep their leaves into winter and their wood isn't the strongest. How will they handle snowfall? I am not for or against sawtooths, but you need to know what you are planting and where you should plant it before deciding if it is the right tree for you.

With that being said, I have read of native swamp white oak, bur oak, and northern red oak producing acorns within just a few years. I would definitely suggest northern red oak or another species from the red oak group to go along with the swamp white oaks you plan to plant. Planting species from the red oak and white oak group will ensure that a single climatic event doesn't wipe out your entire acorn crop.

Restoration of hard mast species for wildlife in Missouri using precocious flowering oak in the Missouri River floodplain, USA

Production and early field performance of RPM seedlings in Missouri floodplains

Northern Red Oak From Acorns to Acorns in 8 Years or Less

 

[buckdeer1]

I planted alot of sawtooths and burs.The burs live longer and really some of them started producing as early as sawtooth.I don't know about your area but pins and shumard and swamp white oak are all decent trees

 

[Belo]

My advice would be to consider what you want the oak to do and provide for your property rather than whether the oak is native to your surrounding area. Will sawtooths even grow that far north? If they do grow that far north, I doubt they will produce acorns in the 5-6 years that everyone touts. Will the area be full sun? Sawtooths do not do well in shade or partial shade. Are you wanting to hunt the sawtooth acorn drop? Sawtooths tend to drop rather early in the fall. Will they drop acorns before hunting season? Sawtooths tend to keep their leaves into winter and their wood isn't the strongest. How will they handle snowfall? I am not for or against sawtooths, but you need to know what you are planting and where you should plant it before deciding it is the right tree for you.

With that being said, I have read of native swamp white oak, bur oak, and northern red oak producing acorns within just a few years. I would definitely suggest northern red oak or another species from the red oak group to go along with the swamp white oaks you plan to plant. Planting species from the red oak and white oak group will ensure that a single climatic event doesn't wipe your entire acorn crop.

Restoration of hard mast species for wildlife in Missouri using precocious flowering oak in the Missouri River floodplain, USA

Production and early field performance of RPM seedlings in Missouri floodplains

Northern Red Oak From Acorns to Acorns in 8 Years or Less

Appreciate this advice. It would be a very sunny area, but you've given me something to think about with drop and snowfall.

 

[goatman]

I've planted several sawtooth oak. Most were started from acorns. I like them and my deer love the acorns but I will no longer plant any. They rot at the bottoms and production is iffy in low areas. I'm in west central IL. Mine do drop from early Oct. and it's a short period.

 

[williams111]

Not sure if you've seen this thread or not. I have some of these growing and I am excited to see what they turn into. If they end up half as good as Teeders I will be happy.

 

[Belo]

Coming back to this thread as the planting season is near. I have canceled my order of sawtooth oak and I'm now looking at native oaks. I will plant 2 or 3 swamp oaks in an area that isn't well drained.

In my open field area I'd like to plant 4 to 6. My choices from a local nursery varying in size from 4 to 8 feet and priced accordingly are:

Pin
Red
White
Bur

Any suggestions for well drained and full sun? I understand I have many years to go before they produce, but would prefer faster growing as a factor. Do I mix red and white as suggested above?

 

[omicron1792]

It's an old semi-commercial orchard and more than I can handle. At this point it's sort of trying to stop thing from completely falling apart and as some of the trees die off, I cut them down. Minimal spraying isn't helping the peaches. The apples are rocking though.

Read up on here about grafting Older trees. They would be best bang for your buck for quick results.

Some of the hybrid oaks will produce faster. Also dwarf chinkapin oaks produce quickly. Continue with the chestnuts.

 

[letemgrow]

I'd mix them together.

Some of those oaks will start to produce acorns in ~5 years given the right circumstances. It'll be several years down the road tho before any measurable amount will be produced.

White oak seems to be the slowest to come into nut bearing age.

 

[Belo]

Read up on here about grafting Older trees. They would be best bang for your buck for quick results.

Some of the hybrid oaks will produce faster. Also dwarf chinkapin oaks produce quickly. Continue with the chestnuts.

Will do thanks.

 

[b116757]

I’ve planted sawtooth and they haven’t done well for me on my site. English have done rather well for me as far as nonnative trees go. Zone 6 SE Kansas. For wet areas Pin oak or Nuttall oak maybe Swamp white don’t be fooled by the name I think Pin and Nuttall are more water tolerant than Swamp White is.

 

[Lucky_P]

I planted a couple hundred sawtooth acorns 25 yrs ago... sold the resulting seedlings to a friend to plant out for deer/turkeys... I have no idea how they did for them. I ended up with about 4 trees in the nursery rows that must have been so small that I missed them. I suppose they produced a few acorns, but I cut them down several years ago and used them to plug for Shiitake production, along with white oak, water oak, Southern red oak, and sugar maple logs. Sawtooth worked best for mushroom production - if I can find it to link, there's a neat video on Japanese sawtooth forestry and Shiitake production. I grew another couple of 5-gallon pots full of sawtooth seedlings again last year, but just couldn't get excited about planting them out... so I sold 'em on FB marketplace in about 10 minutes.
I've been collecting bur oaks from across its range for 30 years... have trees from south TX to Manitoba and many spots in between, acorn size ranging from 6/lb to 100/lb. Most of the bur oak seedlings have begun producing acorns by 6-8 yrs, good crops by 10, with dependable annual production. I'm a huge fan of bur oak and hybrids with bur in their makeup.
I've got one hybrid of OvercupXSWO that originated near Osage City KS; grafted on SWO understock, I've used seedlings of it (open-pollenated, possibly with bur oak pollen parent) as rootstocks, but have a buddy in MI who's planted some out for wildlife use... says they make a much more lateralized fibrous root system than the strongly taprooted bur & bur hybrids... may work better in his 'soggy' spots.
Latest drop I have is a NuttallXPin hybrid, 'Macon'... I've seen it still holding some acorns on March 1.

Oaks are easy to graft... almost right up there with pears & apples. Simple bark graft with dormant scion, as the rootstocks are beginning to leaf out (I grafted a dozen or so today, with hybrid oak scions in the white oak group - chinkabur, Schuettes, burenglish. Bur & SWO make great rootstocks for members of the white oak group. We can run into some graft incompatibilities in the red/black oak group; I've had less issues with Southern red and northern red oak as an understock than pin oak.

Japanese Shiitake Forestry:

 

[Teeder]

Hybrid oaks have really become a hobby for me and I try planting them whenever and wherever I can. That said, I'm a big fan of both sawtooth and English oaks. I'm in northwest pa and get a ton of snow. My sawtooth are over 20 years old and I can't think of a single time they have had damage from snow, bears yes, but not snow. My sawtooth drop for close to a month, roughly from mid September to mid October. The attached picture is a green acorn from Oct 21, last year. Having some oaks that start dropping early in the season is a good thing, imo. It gets them conditioned to come in looking for a snack. My English drop for close to 2 months, October to November. Both varieties start producing at about 7 years if taken care of.
When I started a new "oak plot" when we bought our hunting property, I put a mix of red and white varieties, mainly hybrids, but also a few sawtooth for quick production. My intention is that the natives will catch up and overtake the sawtooth at some point. They can then be removed if needed.

I didn't start any sawtooth this year, but if you're within driving distance of Erie, I'll give you some leftovers.

 

[letemgrow]

Maybe others have a better experience with sawtooth oaks, but in my area, I don't see them out performing the native oaks in the MO/IA border zone.

 

[Teeder]

Maybe others have a better experience with sawtooth oaks, but in my area, I don't see them out performing the native oaks in the MO/IA border zone.

What are the natives in your area?

 

[letemgrow]

What are the natives in your area?

Northern red, white, bur, shingle, chinkapin, black, swamp white

I've watched the sawtooths planted at an MDC area next to northern reds and the reds out produced them the several years I checked.

 

[Teeder]

All planted at the same time?

 

[letemgrow]

All planted at the same time?

Can't be certain on that, but the trees were in rows and all ~ the same height.

Maybe that's a one off.