I would really appreciate advice on planting oaks

[KY wild]

I have a piece of ground that I am having 3 acres of trees sold to put in a pond and will also put in 5 acre clear cut on land for bedding while I have loggers on property. The land is 122 acres of mixed hard woods and has many good size native oaks on the property. This land also has 4 acre pine planting which is mature that the logger would also be willing to take out if I want them to for better wildlife habitat. This pine land is in a place which does me very little good for wildlife and is not in a good spot for bedding. So I was thinking about clearing the pines and planting back better beneficial trees. The property already has three food plots and two fruit tree plots. How to handle the pine cleared land is what I am debating so this is what I am thinking and would appreciate any input.
After pines are cleared I would pay to get tops burned and leave the stumps then I would ride through the area several times this summer with boom sprayer killing off any sprouting stumps or new growth. Then in the spring I would plant maybe 100 hundred Swamp Chestnut oaks and 100 Nuttall oaks and take the trouble to put a tube around all 200 hundred trees then try to spray around the seedlings the 1st year or two and maybe even water if we have a drought. This is my logic for doing this planting.
1. these trees are native to my area in western Ky but not local to this farm
2. These trees give off acorns young age, which is huge considering I am not young
3. These trees give off acorns later in season than my local oaks
So here is my questions and problems
1. Would you do something different with the the 4 acres
2. Will I be able to fight off competition since leaving all stumps, which includes some hardwoods
3. This is biggest question>>>. Will these 2 species do well considering the land is not a swamp. The land is gentle sloping hills and is not wet most of the year. Will these species do OK in Ky which usually gets good rain.

 

[buckdeer1]

Sounds like you have a plan,Tubing is the best way.I would use conduit,either plastic or metal whichever you can get cheaper.Check with your local state forestry,you may be able to buy seedlings from them.Why are you leaving stumps.If you could drive a tractor through there you could use a tree planter and plant that many in a day VS lot more work with a dibble.I have planted sawtooth, bur, pin, and a couple swamp white oaks and tested tubes for the state before they cost shared. Be sure and allow enough spacing.You may be able to get a forestry plan or CRP and help pay for some or get some payments.

 

[KY wild]

It would cost me $2200 an acre to have an excavator to dig out stumps. I was hoping to be able to leave stumps and treat sprouts.

 

[Hoytvectrix]

I would actually over plant the areas you are wanting to plant for food and cover. I'm not sure what other people are getting for their trees, but my bare root oaks are probably only at about 70% success until they are no longer needing a tube. I would also push for more diversity in the trees that you were planting. The woods will be better for it.

 

[KY wild]

To be honest money is more of a deciding factor than effort, I could plant many more species pretty cheap but I could not put a tube around the surplus trees. I think it is a great idea though to plant even if I do not protect other species, Thanks

 

[Hoytvectrix]

I am in a similar boat as you. My issue is that I'm converting steep pasture ground back to timber. I have been planting bare root trees mostly in miracle tubes, and leaving about 20% unprotected. I planted 330 bare root trees in April and will plant another 200 yet this summer and fall. I've also been going along with a nut planter and planting a few thousand acorns and nuts. At this point I'm just trying to learn what works.

 

[SD51555]

Two things I'd think long and hard about before you do 200 tree tubes.

1. Tree tubes are a ton of work and money and future garbage. They take years of diligent and timely maintenance to make successful. Wasps can make nests in them, leaves accumulate in the tube and can make a bulk problem, bad tube tops can cut into the tree bark (ask me how I know that), tubes slide up, stakes break, some trees need pruning inside the tube, etc.

2. Do you really want a bumper crop of acorns? I posed this question once before. My property is covered in bur oak. Last year, the forests of MN kicked out the largest acorn crop anyone had ever seen. It was a huge win for all wild critters, but it was hell to try to find and hunt animals because there was no longer a bed to food pattern, and no seasonal transition of food sources. It was just acorns all the time and everywhere. Fewest deer I'd seen since the near extinction ten years ago. Shitloads of deer at night on camera, but they never had to leave cover during the day.

 

[SD51555]

I'd challenge you to instead do some native ID work on your property. ID 5-10 of the best and most prevalent trees and shrubs on your property, the best food, best browse, best hard mast, soft mast, cover, etc.

Then Identify the 5 lowest value trees on your property. On my land it's aspen, tag alder, ash, large dying balsam fir, and diamond willow. Large trees of those species serve no useful purpose. But when cut down, they make space for all the good trees and shrubs we just found, and them bads in a regenerating stump state turn into really good cover and browse. Win, win, win, nothing spent other than some saw fuel and gas station calories.

I don't know what it's like in Kentucky, but I think we as a group never regard the potential value we've already got naturally that could be unlocked with some management, and we jump right to harsh interventions to try to force something that likely isn't meant to be there.

 

[TreeDaddy]

google up grant woods you tube videos

he talks about releasing the potential of native species with prescribed fire, herbicides, etc in pine stands

bill

 

[Native Hunter]

I'm in South Central KY, and I planted Swamp Chestnut Oak on a flat upland site that is has a tendency to be a tad moist but is not a swamp. They don't have to grow in a swamp, but I don't think they would do well on a very dry hillside like you mentioned. The land where they are growing on my place is dry enough to grow chestnuts and fruit trees well, but the SCOs thrive too.

Last year during season I set in my deer blind and watched deer come out hours before dark in the afternoons and feed on SCO acorns until they had scooped up every one that had fallen during the day. The acorns as so sweet that I can eat them myself - although not nearly as tasty as chestnuts. You are correct about them falling late - this was in November.

You might enjoy the following thread. I wouldn't take anything for my oak planting. It's one of the best things I've ever done.

The Year of the Oaks

Over the last few years, you guys have seen me post a lot about persimmons, apples, pears and chestnuts. I still love all those trees, but this year I’m turning my attention to the oak trees that I set out 15-17 years ago. The original planting was done in 2004, but we had a severe drought...

habitat-talk.com

 

[West_Fork]

Fire in conifer communities is usually the most economical and effective since it takes out the seed bank too and there will be less pine recruitment in the future.

 

[rocksnstumps]

First let's put things in perspective. 4 acres of pines is not a pine plantation or even if covered in oaks gonna give a bumper crop of acorns that alter the pattern of deer for miles around. Some of the others on here are not factoring in the scale of things with the advice offered. If the small chunk of pines offers little in your area, sure play a little. On my land a miniscule 6 acre patch of pines is a preferred turkey roosting spot. Probably for the thermal cover during northern winters. In Kentucky, maybe not so much.

I would tend to stick with advice offered by folks from the KY or states nearby as mine and others is heavily biased for my area.

As for a couple hundred trees dibbled in and tubed, plan for a couple days. Pretty small potatoes in the scheme of things. Tubes are work to get good results however. Plan to revisit to restake, clean out, etc at least once maybe twice a year for a few years. You neglect that step and you will become like the other tube naysayers on here. They actually work well on oaks but yeah buncha future work necessary.

 

[TreeDaddy]

First let's put things in perspective. 4 acres of pines is not a pine plantation or even if covered in oaks gonna give a bumper crop of acorns that alter the pattern of deer for miles around. Some of the others on here are not factoring in the scale of things with the advice offered. If the small chunk of pines offers little in your area, sure play a little. On my land a miniscule 6 acre patch of pines is a preferred turkey roosting spot. Probably for the thermal cover during northern winters. In Kentucky, maybe not so much.

I would tend to stick with advice offered by folks from the KY or states nearby as mine and others is heavily biased for my area.

As for a couple hundred trees dibbled in and tubed, plan for a couple days. Pretty small potatoes in the scheme of things. Tubes are work to get good results however. Plan to revisit to restake, clean out, etc at least once maybe twice a year for a few years. You neglect that step and you will become like the other tube naysayers on here. They actually work well on oaks but yeah buncha future work necessary.

The second paragraph applies to all things habitat

Find out what works best for other addicts( habitat guys) in your area

bill

 

[West_Fork]

The second paragraph applies to all things habitat

Find out what works best for other addicts( habitat guys) in your area

bill

With only having experience in the west, I find that I am completely clueless about veg and soils east of Colorado and a it's whole different world. I remember from my irrigation classes in school the professor saying that they don't have irrigation classes in the east, they have drainage classes.

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

Oaks like full sunshine, so taking out all the junk trees and competition would be a good start. Have you ever tried clear cutting a small section to see what grows back naturally? You might have good luck letting nature do the seeding for you if you have a bunch of acorn dropping oaks nearby.

The downed tree tops from the junk trees will act as natural tree cages and allow the wild acorns (or your planted seedlings) to grow. I'm not a huge fan of tree tubes, but I've only used them a dozen times so my impressions may not be typical. I've found they tend to get torn up by bears and if the bears don't tear them up the mice build houses inside them and they eat the trees I'm trying to protect.

 

[bwoods11]

Oaks can be tough to grow ! I’ve gravitated toward bigger seedlings with tubes, cages. You have to baby them.

Or I’ll find a small natural oak and protect it!

 

[KY wild]

Thanks for all the comments and helpful suggestions. You guys have influenced me and made me think about thinks differently. A few follow up comments......
1. I have had great success tubing my trees in the past but not in clearcuts but in old pasture fields. Before tubing I would lose 80% of trees because of competition and just losing them, since tubing I have close to 90% success, I do clean and spray around but at least tubes allow me to do so. Also the tubes I use are recycled milk jugs so I hope not that environmentally unfriendly, considering. (I know micro plastics but...)

2. I am scared to burn without very good firebreak and firebreak in my woods is very expensive and also puts much growth and deer right on my neighbor line so I avoid but this situation I could just burn the pine area and could work great, thanks for suggestion. (I will burn pine area if I clear them)

3. What clear cut brings in my area I have seen many times. If I was to clearcut areas on my farm not pine but any of the other this is what would happen, no doubt about it . Trees would explode with dozens of species including several oaks( northern red, black, chinquapin, white, cherry bark, southern, post, chestnut, shingle, pin, scarlet) many others like ... gum, poplar, elm, dogwood, persimmon, hickory, cherry, maples and several others. All would take off and shoot like rockets and then 20 years later left alone you will have a very dominate Tulip Poplar stand with a very few other species. In clear cut here always lingering seed bank full of poplar and will shade everything with time. Now other ways to manage to not create poplar forest (shelter wood) but that is different conversation.

4. I try to manage old fields for forbs and plant some to fruit trees and chestnuts but want to do more to the woods which is 80% of the farm. Back to the original conversation. I think pine is not that good for wildlife and is not natural to my woods so I was considering to replace it but I am on the fence. I like the idea of introducing new oaks which are native to Ky but are not on my farm like Swamp Chestnut, Burr and Nuttall Oak. This may be a bad idea but I like the thought, of adding them for something different and to get them in the seed bank. The woods on this farm has great diversity but I like this thought of adding new good species, into the mix. I also like the idea of having a few acres of pine just because it is different but it seems a little useless, hence why I don't know to if I want to do it or not. I am thinking more 50 years from now than hunting now. I spend too much time habitat management to have time to hunt

5. What do you guys think of starting oaks that are not on farm but is native to at least the region?

 

[buckdeer1]

I don't remember how many oaks I tested in tubes but after 2 years I had 74% still alive and I would say they were 4-5 ft tall. After they got too big for tubes I made small cages until they were big enough to not get rubbed.The only oaks within several miles of my place I planted and they grow fine.
I don't know why the font changed but I would look at planting at a large spacing and plant shrubs in blocks or rows.You mentioned the cost of removing stumps.That surprised me I think thats about the price for 2 days that would do that job.May be worth renting a mini excavator.

 

[West_Fork]

2. Oaks (at least in my world) are sprouters that are promoted by fire. If I want to get oaks back where the spruce-fir has invaded I simply need to bring back the fire. Removing the heavy fuels and then broadcast burning on what's left is a good practice to get an area back in shape with less risk. Too much fuel, too hot, not good. Getting to know the historical fire regime for the area will help guide decisions. Often times ecological site descriptions from the NRCS should tell you what the soil supported in its natural state, often called the "pristine state" which is a myth.. A thing called Biophysical setting and Fire Effects Information System (https://www.feis-crs.org/feis/) can help identify the fire regime for the area as well.

3. reading #3 makes me think everything I said in #2 is meaningless.

4. I agree with pines not being good habitat for anything without feathers, but it is good for grouse and turkeys.

5. Native oaks for the region would be my preference, but I would check to make sure they are appropriate for the ecological site/soils. If you have a local NRCS office they are a wealth of info and experience.

 

[bigboreblr]

The 4 acres of pnes, what kind of soil and whats the pH of it?

Earyl succesional forest is what I would go after.

Far as pine tops / stumps, what kind of equipment do you have? You could put the tops into piles and burn. Cut up a corner well with a chainsaw, like 2ft lengths, so the pieces get close to each other. This will make them start to burn much easier.

Could just make new mixed forest too. Some spruce, some oaks, some faster growing stuff like willows. Maybe rake underneath certain shrubs and spread the soil.

Im gussing once you cut the pine down, it might not sprout back. You can pour some diesel or tordon rtu on the stumps close to the time they get cut. Can't really recall a pine tree growing back for me in NY.

I also suggest a selective harvest is the mixed hardwoods. You cut a mature oak down, the stumps will regenerate a new young tree usually. Clearancing lesser quality trees around better ones is worth your trouble. Even if the logger doesn't take it, girdling certain trees can help others. Definitely helps with acorn production.