When there is no lime?

[SD51555]

I can't make up my mind on this. First I was dead set on cowpeas only. Then after hearing some feedback here, I thought maybe I'd do berseem clover. Then I got squeemish about being able to overseed rye into a pure stand of berseem. Then I thought, why not go half oats, half berseem, and terminate the oats when they are heading out but still green.

Now this morning, I got myself thinking, why not throw some cowpeas into that mix too? So I don't know. I'm really hoping to get the land cleared and get something going instead of needed roundup. I am aware my expectations may be too high.

 

[sandbur]

If your area is anything like mine...the first thing that will show up once you disturb the soil (in any way) is going to be a very thick, lush crop of....thistles

I had some virgin soil in the woods of northern Mn. and had no weeds for years. Then I brought in a bag of Walmart compost-now I've got thistles.

 

[SD51555]

I had the same experience when I grew clover at my dad's. We don't have much for thistle anywhere on our property. I am also wise enough to know it doesn't take much to put down an army of thistle seed to wait for decades to take over.

Worst case, I'm hoping I can mitigate by doing some spot spraying and good ole fashioned weeding with a hoe.

 

[Doug Galloway]

You may soon have a one acre plot to fart around with. You may soon need a lot of lime to bring the PH up to better levels. There isn't a source for bulk lime within 100 miles of you. What do you do?

More importantly, what do the farmers in my area do to raise a low PH? I suppose I should ask the farmer I'm meeting with up there soon.

Don't know about the farmers there.....

....we think a bit differently here....



I thought most of you were habitat nerds? Students of nature?

Have you ever read about ancient Native American farming? Success or failure of entire nations dependent on soil?

Do you really know your natural resources very well?

You DO NOT need limestone.....IF.....!

You have timber which can be reduced to ash with fire.....CaO and KO in ash = CaOH and KOH in soil = becomes Ca and K carbonates with plant root exudates over time. Yankees burn a lot of wood....do they not?....and they need to get rid of the ash?....do they not?....and you don't mind some hauling?...do you not?

Soil C performs the majority of the same functions as soil Ca......IF you can put enough C into the soil (manures, residues, and root exudates)....you don't need limestone! BUTTTT...without the effect of animal impact (livestock) the full merits of organic soil management CANNOT be realized!

The best thing you can ever do for your personal growth and learning about habitat management...is to work at both extremes....high input, high amendment, high yield scenario.....vs....natural system, natural disturbance, no input, no amendment....that should open the mind for sound learning!

 

[SD51555]

They sell wood ash from the mill in grand rapids. Maybe I'll have to see about getting some of that.

 

[wiscwhip]

This is why I mentioned the use of fly ash earlier, just make sure if you use it you get Class C not Class F.

 

[Doug Galloway]

REally be careful with fly ash....it can contain high levels of heavy metals.

I like to mix manure with ash (4:1) say...no real recipe....the formation of Ca-humates are thought to be soil beneficial.

Now you fellas are thinking....ahh....peace out!

 

[sandbur]

Are you speaking of land by Park Rapids?

If so, there has to be a soil/ag service within 100 miles. Lots of potato ground near PR.

Is the land wet? Maybe alsike. If drier, try some medium red clover and Bob Hunt at Staples said you need sulfur on that soil for red clover and pH is not so important.

I would get the area cleaned up with roundup, plant rye and red clover in august. Add alsike to the wet areas.

 

[SD51555]

We're on the northeast side of Cass. It's a strong hour to PR.

 

[sandbur]

My mistake, I had you confused with someone on another forum who has Park Rapids in their ID.

Cass county- where I grew up. North of Remer? Did we discuss this before? Or north east of Cass lake? Those farmers in the Northome/ Blackduck area must get soil service from somewhere.

 

[SD51555]

That was me too. Was trying to keep vague my location. We're between Remer and boy river.

 

[sandbur]

That was me too. Was trying to keep vague my location. We're between Remer and boy river.

stu and I spent an afternoon hunting partridge in that country. I have spent part days thru the years hunting partridge up there. Also bear hunted up there. There is a world of difference between Park Rapids and your area. Some of my suggestions in other posts might have been different with your location being indicated.

zone 172?? I hunt the Sw corner of zone 172. Again, totally different from your area.

In that country I would use alsike and red clover. Alsike on wetter sites, red clover on drier.

I see how lime can be a problem up there. I would get pel lime and make sweet spots that are heavily limed and have well adjusted pH.

depend on rye, red clover, and alsike for the majority of feed. Don't forget the turnips.

Plant some crab apples.

 

[foggy]

We're on the northeast side of Cass. It's a strong hour to PR.

Not sure how much lime your wanting to get? I saw some big piles of lime (end dump trailer loads waiting to be loaded and spread - I assume) in the area around Backus MN ....just south west of you.

I saw a lime buggy and at least 3 large piles of lime in a township sized area of broken ag cournty.....most piles had multiple trailer loads stock-piled at the edge of a field. Those farmers are really working on that land. I'm not sure what kind of lime that was that I saw.....but I gotta believe its beet lime from the RR valley (?).

Not sure where they get supplies. I had my lime trucked in - once from Sebeka and once from limestone quarries in Mpls. Same prices, as its all in the trucking. About $600 / end dump semi load (23 tons).....or a dump truck load (12 tons).

Bagged lime could be bought at Pine River (closest ?) or at Aitkin. Getting supplies up in the north country is a problem. :(

 

[SD51555]

I just want to grow what I can doing no till, and without much inputs: annual clover, cowpeas, rye, radish, maybe sorghum, oats.

 

[sandbur]

Why annual clover?

I would want to plant clover that might last a few years and feed the deer in the spring. Back to alsike and red clover. Add some sulfur and the red clover might not need much lime.

You might also look at birdsfoot trefoil in that country if you are on the heavier soil. I have seen it attract deer along the ditches on the roads north of Blackduck.

I suspect the farms at Deer River and Blackduck must also have a source of Lime.