The same handload for two rifles

[Native Hunter]

I have two 308s (TC Icon Bolt, and FNAR Semi Auto) and had been shooting factory shells in them which worked good, but my goal was to work out one handload that would work well in both rifles. Sounds easy but really kind of hard since each has its own preferences, and the throat length is very different in the guns. So the optimum bullet seating depth for each gun would be different.

I wanted to shoot the Hornady SST 150 grain bullet and didn't care which powder I used - just wanted to find one that would work in both guns. After a little experimenting I found that both liked IMR 4064 the best. I worked up a max load of 46.0 grains and both responded well.

Here are the results. I shot at 100 yards and both guns were around 3/4 inch groups with the same load. Took it on out to 200 yards and results were also great.

I had just a little varying wind so need a still day to tune in perfectly. But I'm within a click of being there.

FNAR at 100 yds:



TC Icon at 100 Yds:



FNAR at 200 Yds:


TC Icon at 200 Yds:

 

[foggy]

OK....so your always gonna have a basic problem with making loads for TWO or more guns. .....and that is: THE BARRELS WILL NOT VIBRATE THE SAME. Each barrel on every gun will have a certain "whip" to it. This can make as much as a 12" difference in groups at 100 yards. (!) So....unless your have the EXACT copy of one gun to the other....including free-travel of the bullets, barrel length, barrel contours, etc., etc. Your NEVER gonna get similar groups from guns. Even then....it's gonna be suspect.

Sure....you can get "lucky" .....but it seldom happens.

Barrel "whip" is a huge factor in where the gun will shoot. That is ONE reason you cannot "bore sight" a rifle and expect it to shoot to that POA (point of aim).

Hope that's clear?

 

[Native Hunter]

OK....so your always gonna have a basic problem with making loads for TWO or more guns. .....and that is: THE BARRELS WILL NOT VIBRATE THE SAME. Each barrel on every gun will have a certain "whip" to it. This can make as much as a 12" difference in groups at 100 yards. (!) So....unless your have the EXACT copy of one gun to the other....including free-travel of the bullets, barrel length, barrel contours, etc., etc. Your NEVER gonna get similar groups from guns. Even then....it's gonna be suspect.

Sure....you can get "lucky" .....but it seldom happens.

Barrel "whip" is a huge factor in where the gun will shoot. That is ONE reason you cannot "bore sight" a rifle and expect it to shoot to that POA (point of aim).

Hope that's clear?

Foggy, I was hoping you would weigh in on this. Yep, what you said is very clear. And I agree that it will be hit or miss finding one load to work in both. But, I have them both cutting 3/4 inch groups at 100 yards with this load, and that's pretty good for a semi auto and a very light barreled bolt action. I attribute that more to getting lucky than anything I did. I'm satisfied with 3/4 inch groups from deer rifles. Thoughts?

 

[foggy]

OH.....and I used to make some Laser Bore Sighting tools.....so I did do some homework in this area. LOL

FWIW.....My second or third generation lasers were pretty cool......and I spent a great deal of time developing the product. But....by then....the laser products had gotten so "cheap" that I didnt feel I could make any money if I played that game. So.....I walked away. The prices only got cheaper too.....good decision. ;)

 

[foggy]

Foggy, I was hoping you would weigh in on this. Yep, what you said is very clear. And I agree that it will be hit or miss finding one load to work in both. But, I have them both cutting 3/4 inch groups at 100 yards with this load, and that's pretty good for a semi auto and a very light barreled bolt action. I attribute that more to getting lucky than anything I did. I'm satisfied with 3/4 inch groups from deer rifles. Thoughts?

Yep....so just plan to sight each one in separately.. They may shoot the same load fine.....just not to the same POI.....when making a change in ammo. Just don't expect the same results without checking EACH gun for accuracy. No biggie.

I want the same loads for several guns we have here too. And it generally works out well for us. But each gun is it's own entity.....and needs to be treated as such. ;)

 

[Native Hunter]

Yep....so just plan to sight each one in separately.. They may shoot the same load fine.....just not to the same POI.....when making a change in ammo. Just don't expect the same results without checking EACH gun for accuracy. No biggie.

I want the same loads for several guns we have here too. And it generally works out well for us. But each gun is it's own entity.....and needs to be treated as such. ;)

Yep, that's what I did today. Also used a chronograph and checked velocity. Bolt action was about 100 fps faster than the semi auto. No surprise there - just about what I expected.

Both sighted in dead on a 200 yards. Both will be in the neighborhood of 8 inches low at 300 - with the semi auto dropping a tad more.

 

[MoLandOwner]

Very Interesting Thread, I love learning this stuff!

 

[foggy]

I believe that reloading and ballistics is one of the most fascinating areas of science. I've had lots of fun playing with some of this stuff. It's really neat when all the stars line up.....and you "know' what to expect when you do certain things.

....Or not. ;) Grin.

 

[foggy]

I've got a bench-rest gun....that will shoot 5 shots into a group that measures less than .100". Most guys cannot tell that there are 5 holes in the target. The Jewel trigger is so light that you merely "touch" it (no feel) to fire the gun. 36 Power Scope.....switch barrel.....all the best....yadda, yadda. VERY specialized for this sport.

The case necks are turned to .0002" TOTAL clearance between the diameter of the neck and the chamber. Don't screw this up.....or you have made a pipe bomb!

Tweaking with the highest levels of accuracy is kinda fun......but you gotta have some others in the area that have similar interests.....or it becomes tedious (?). Not much for competitors in this part of the world.

I'd sell my Benchrest rifle and all the (best) reloading tools......if someone wants to take up that challenge. It can be fun for some folks. .....and the BEST kinda folks play that "game". Some are border-line genius....and fun to hang with. :)

 

[wklman]

Reloading is another hobby that will suck you in quick. Once you figure out how to do it you'll never go back to factory. there's the challenge of trying different components and seeing which combination works best. Bullet seating, bullet selection, powder selection, primer selection, brass selection....... so many variables. many will work for one gun and then there's that one gun that will only work with only one powder and bullet.

 

[MoLandOwner]

I've got a bench-rest gun....that will shoot 5 shots into a group that measures less than .100". Most guys cannot tell that there are 5 holes in the target. The Jewel trigger is so light that you merely "touch" it (no feel) to fire the gun. 36 Power Scope.....switch barrel.....all the best....yadda, yadda.

The case necks are turned to .0002" TOTAL clearance between the diameter of the neck and the chamber. Don't screw this up.....or you have made a pipe bomb!

Tweaking with the highest levels of accuracy is kinda fun......but you gotta have some others in the area that have similar interests.....or it becomes tedious (?). Not much for competitors in this part of the world.

I'd sell my Benchrest rifle if someone wants to take up that challenge. It can be fun for some folks.

You can shoot that tight at what distance?

 

[Native Hunter]

Something else I have learned about these two guns, and it can be applied to any gun:

Each likes to be cleaned differently to shoot its best groups. The FNAR shoot the best if its cleaned often, and the TC shoots the best with the barrel fowled badly. You have to fool around with a gun to find this out.

Another thing I have learned about rifles: Some are much more stable than others from day to day. It doesn't do you any good to have a tight shooting rifle if the point of impact moves around because the weather changes a little. I have another gun (a 7 Mag) that just seems to

Reloading is another hobby that will suck you in quick. Once you figure out how to do it you'll never go back to factory. there's the challenge of trying different components and seeing which combination works best. Bullet seating, bullet selection, powder selection, primer selection, brass selection....... so many variables. many will work for one gun and then there's that one gun that will only work with only one powder and bullet.

Amen to that, and a touchy gun is worse than a touchy woman.....

 

[Native Hunter]

Both these 308s are stable with the weather. The Point of Impact doesn't drift from one day to the next. I hate a gun that every time you shoot it, its moved since the last time. I have a 7 mag I'm ready to throw over a bluff. It shoots tight groups, but what good is that if the POI shifts.... It has a synthetic stock and has been glass bedded...go figure....

 

[foggy]

You can shoot that tight at what distance?

The best group I ever shot was in the "0"'s. Five shots measured .087" at 100 yards. That kinda group just looks like one "bughole". Generally your will shoot at 100 and 200 yards at benchers shoots. The 200 yard groups may enlarge your groups by .050 or so. Sometimes they are quite similar.

When the wind picks up.....THAT separates the men from the boys. I've had 4 shots in a "bughole" only to let the 5th shot enlarge the group by .5" Frustrating. It happens to them all.

Benchrest is all about your ability to judge the wind. Most folks with a competitive gun will shoot near .100 for five shots in calm conditions....or they need a better gun / load. Reading the wind and finding the same conditions for each shot is paramount to super accuracy. Like most things.....some guys are quite passionate about this sport...and go t all ends to be the best.

 

[foggy]

Both these 308s are stable with the weather. The Point of Impact doesn't drift from one day to the next. I hate a gun that every time you shoot it, its moved since the last time. I have a 7 mag I'm ready to throw over a bluff. It shoots tight groups, but what good is that if the POI shifts.... It has a synthetic stock and has been glass bedded...go figure....

^ Yep. I've sold a few guns like that. For hunting you don't need extreme accuracy so much as you need a gun that will do "good work" each time you squeeze the trigger. Intead of MOA (moment of angle).....some guys need MOC (moment of critter). Sometimes its the same thing....other times its not.

 

[wklman]

Both these 308s are stable with the weather. The Point of Impact doesn't drift from one day to the next. I hate a gun that every time you shoot it, its moved since the last time. I have a 7 mag I'm ready to throw over a bluff. It shoots tight groups, but what good is that if the POI shifts.... It has a synthetic stock and has been glass bedded...go figure....

Have you tried retumbo in it with some heavier bullets(168-180)? I went to retumbo and 150 grain bergers in my .270 weatherby and that gun is now lights out (took 6 dif powders and 5 dif bullets,my finickiest gun by far. )

 

[Native Hunter]

The best group I ever shot was in the "0"'s. Five shots measured .087" at 100 yards. That kinda group just looks like one "bughole". Generally your will shoot at 100 and 200 yards at benchers shoots. The 200 yard groups may enlarge your groups by .050 or so. Sometimes they are quite similar.

Benchrest is all about your ability to judge the wind. Most folks with a competitive gun will shoot near .100 for five shots in calm conditions....or they need a better gun / load. Reading the wind and finding the same conditions for each shot is paramount to super accuracy. Like most things.....some guys are quite passionate about this sport...and go t all ends to be the best.

What caliber is your bench rest gun and what does it weigh?

 

[Native Hunter]

Have you tried retumbo in it with some heavier bullets(168-180)? I went to retumbo and 150 grain bergers in my .270 weatherby and that gun is now lights out (took 6 dif powders and 5 dif bullets,my finickiest gun by far. )

I've tried quite a few different things with it. but not retumbo. It actually shoots tight groups, but the POI seems to drift. And when you clean the barrel it goes wacky for a while.

 

[MoLandOwner]

The best group I ever shot was in the "0"'s. Five shots measured .087" at 100 yards. That kinda group just looks like one "bughole". Generally your will shoot at 100 and 200 yards at benchers shoots. The 200 yard groups may enlarge your groups by .050 or so. Sometimes they are quite similar.

When the wind picks up.....THAT separates the men from the boys. I've had 4 shots in a "bughole" only to let the 5th shot enlarge the group by .5" Frustrating. It happens to them all.

Benchrest is all about your ability to judge the wind. Most folks with a competitive gun will shoot near .100 for five shots in calm conditions....or they need a better gun / load. Reading the wind and finding the same conditions for each shot is paramount to super accuracy. Like most things.....some guys are quite passionate about this sport...and go t all ends to be the best.

Sounds like you are quite passionate.

I will have to bring my buddy around some day, he is always talking greek to me with wind, mils, the curve of the earth, matching bullets to specific guns he has, getting pissed if he can't cover a group with a quarter......Hahahaha!

 

[foggy]

What caliber is your bench rest gun?

It's a 6 MM PPC. That cartridge is kinda the "gold standard" of bench rest shooters. IIRC I get about 3400 fps out of a 69 grain bullet: less time to target = less time for the wind effects.

Mine is a switch barrel gun that can shoot light varmint or heavy varmint classes (the most popular classes). It has the "weight system" in the stock and it's able to put different weight/ length barrels on and off in a few minutes. Most of the weight is in the barrels. Aluminum receiver, rings, etc.....and a kevlar stock that weighs mere ounces. Pretty sweet.....and looks kinda sharp too. :)

Generally, I've used Berger bullets in my rifle. Even went on a Antelope hunt with Walt Berger before he passed. He was a legend in the bench rest competition....and a class-act in any venue.

Man.....that brings back memories........what a fun trip.............