Checking Deer Rifles 2023

[Native Hunter]

Every year I will do a quick check on our deer rifles just to make sure nothing has got knocked off. If the gun hits well on the first shot, I generally only shoot it one or two time. When I am working up loads, however, I shoot either 4 or 5 shot groups.

First gun is my son's 300 Mag Christensen Arms Ridgeline. It is shooting a full throttle handload I worked out with a 180 Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet. I shot it one time at 200 yards and put it back in the case.



The second target is from my Hankins Muzzleloader and it is also at 200 yards. I will need this gun in about 9 days for our early 2 day ML season. I was likewise happy with the shot and put the gun back in the case.



Third gun is my 300 Mag. I discovered a couple of years back that my gun would shoot my son's handloads extremely tight. This year I went ahead and sighted my gun in using his shells, so now we don't have to worry about getting shells messed up. A couple of years ago when I first tried this, I put 4 in the same hole at 100 yards. Today I just shot twice and both almost went in the same hole. First target is the 4 shot group and second is the 2 shot group.





My dad got the urge a few years ago to have a custom 30-06 Ackley Improved built. The gun has a Shilen Barrel, a Sako Action and a HS Precision stock. He used the gun one time to go out west and kill a mule deer, and it has been setting in a safe for about 20 years. His days of shooting big guns like this are over so he gave me the gun. I tried it out a little today. The first shot on an oily barrel went a little high, but still printed a 4 shot group just barely less than an inch at 100 yds. The following 3 shots on a dirty barrel went into .68 inches at 100. I clicked it up a couple of clicks and left it. Later this winter when the weather is colder, I will fool with this gun a little more.




The last gun I tried is a 25-06 Remington Sendero. The gun typically shoots between 1/2 and 3/4 of an inch at 100 yds, and that is what it did today. The group center was just a hair left, so I did adjust a couple of clicks.



It got too hot to be shooting, so I quit after this. My main goals today was to check my Muzzleloader and sight my 300 Mag in to shoot the same shells as my son - and I got that done.

 

[drycreek]

Always good to check things out before actually heading to the field. I went on a grocery getting excursion a few years ago, (hunting axis does on a high fenced ranch) and missed two in a row. I texted the owner and he brought me his rifle to use. A half hour later I had her on the ground. Turned out my scope mount was a little loose. It doesn’t take much to put you way off at distance !

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Nice shooting @Native Hunter

Is that hankins a 700 based .45 cal?

 

[Native Hunter]

Nice shooting @Native Hunter

Is that hankins a 700 based .45 cal?

Yes, that’s what I have. I love it.

 

[Tree Spud]

I sight in and check my rifles every year before gun season. I like having the confidence knowing that my rifle will shoot where I aim, I just need to aim in the right place

 

[bigboreblr]

200 yards with a muzzleloader. Sounds good.

Checked my guns today instead of going up to camp for early muzzeloader in the adirondacks. Had to work until midnight friday restoring a power line.

Finally got my savage 308 ready for deer season. That factory trigger i couldn't use. The gun would accidentally go off while trying ot shoot it. Put a timmey in about as hard a pull it could make, about 4lbs. Good shooter with factory winchester powr points.

 

[Foggy47]

Good groups for those calibers. Looks like you got it wired.

 

[Angus 1895]

Nice shooting.

I have a question:

On the range visiting with a guy and my own experience is.
I think my best groups are when the rifle/ cartridge is near “ max” load. But I can’t prove it.

On a Savage 99 Internet forum. Most claim middle to low power loads are where the accuracy is.

I have shot model 1899/99s for over a decade and in my experience they can’t be loaded very hot according to any book.
So suspect bias on lower loadings by this group of shooters.

I also found that lighter charges in muzzel loaders are more accurate for me.

So am I in error trying to get my centerfires to near “ max loads?”

Thanks for your opinions.

 

[Foggy47]

Generally, I think most competitive target shooters strive to get near max loads from their efforts. However I have not often considered reduced loads as most often we are looking for better long range performance. I have found that the extreme spread (in velocity) is usually tighter with max loads......therefore it would stand to reason that vertical accuracy (a product of velocity) would be improved.

 

[Native Hunter]

If you look at the Nosler Reloading Manuals they show you at which point they achieved the greatest accuracy in their test rifle with each powder and bullet combination. Many times this will be at the max load, but it will vary all over the place, and sometimes it will be at the starting load.

When I work up a hunting load I try different powders until I find one that gives me good accuracy at or near the max. The Mesa LR rifle groups shown above that are cutting out the same hole are with a max load. It is 2 grains below max in the book, but I have lengthened the overall cartridge length above the book. Setting the bullet closer to the lands will increase pressure because the bullet has less distance to jump until it hits the lands. So even though I am 2 grains below max I am still right at max. And, I saw no signs of bad pressure, so I feel I’m fine with the load.

So, the IMR 4831 gave me what I wanted but a different powder might not.

 

[Foggy47]

I think Angus will run into some problems in trying to seat the bullets long in the 99 magazines.....may not let him get too long.

 

[Native Hunter]

I think Angus will run into some problems in trying to seat the bullets long in the 99 magazines.....may not let him get too long.

Yes, and it can be a problem with bolt guns too. I don’t like rifles with long throats. I want to be able to seat my bullets almost touching the lands but still have everything to feed well.

 

[Foggy47]

Yes, and it can be a problem with bolt guns too. I don’t like rifles with long throats. I want to be able to seat my bullets almost touching the lands but still have everything to feed well.

When I was developing the OAL Gauge, I stopped by a big gun shop in souther MN and they had two new 30-06 bolt action rifles that were just one serial number apart. I had become a good friend with one of the gunsmiths there and they had done some work for me and sectioned some barrels so I could demo my product, etc. I asked if I could use my gauge to inspect the throat in the two new guns.......and the gunsmith there was curious too.

What I found was that one of those guns was about as expected and had a reasonably short throat.....while the other gun was really bad. The bullet was out of the case mouth before contact with the rifling. The difference was well over .150".....but I do not remember exact dimensions. That is quite a bit in a new rifle. I can only assume the manufacturer used a throating reamer as a separate operation at that time and for one reason or the other over-did one of the barrels?

I asked the smith which of the two guns he would want to own? He said...."we both know the answer to that......but I gotta sell them both". lol. Until this time there really was not a reasonable way to check such things. I think the manufacturers have cleaned those tolerances up considerably over the years.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

To the "max load" question - I think many times in load development people see what they want to see and not always verifiable proof.

Generally, a guy handloading wants to maximize performance (velocity, precision, consistency) so right from start the goal is to get something near max velocity. Once something is found to shoot well there, often with a statistically insignificant sample size, that's "what the gun likes". There is no reason to try to discredit it or find something marginally better if it's shooting well near top end velocities!

My anecdotal experience has been a rifle two that just didn't shoot as well near max but most good shooting rifles have done so up and down the pressure/velocity spectrum. I have a tikka 223 right now that just doesn't seem to like to be run very fast and it's getting a new barrel soon.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

When I was developing the OAL Gauge, I stopped by a big gun shop in souther MN and they had two new 30-06 bolt action rifles that were just one serial number apart. I had become a good friend with one of the gunsmiths there and they had done some work for me and sectioned some barrels so I could demo my product, etc. I asked if I could use my gauge to inspect the throat in the two new guns.......and the gunsmith there was curious too.

What I found was that one of those guns was about as expected and had a reasonably short throat.....while the other gun was really bad. The bullet was out of the case mouth before contact with the rifling. The difference was well over .150".....but I do not remember exact dimensions. That is quite a bit in a new rifle. I can only assume the manufacturer used a throating reamer as a separate operation at that time and for one reason or the other over-did one of the barrels?

I asked the smith which of the two guns he would want to own? He said...."we both know the answer to that......but I gotta sell them both". lol. Until this time there really was not a reasonable way to check such things. I think the manufacturers have cleaned those tolerances up considerably over the years.

That's a ton of difference!

Little tangent in regards to the throat reamers.. I've had 3 chambers cut where the gunsmith used an existing reamer and then extended the throat to my desired spec. All 3 of those barrels (using top shelf barrel blanks) were unimpressive shooters. I've chalked it up as bad luck and have another barrel that's about to get a throat lengthened because the gunsmith doesn't have the reamer i requested. If this one is a dud.. I'm done with throating reamers!

 

[Angus 1895]

Weatherby rifles incorporated a “ free jump” throat before the rifeling.

Barnes copper bullets recommend right or near the rifling.

The weirdest deal I have had is the 6.5 x 55 husqavarna bolt actions in model 98.

The earlier made one ( a rifle with a steel floor plate) got “ sticky “ on extraction mid book. I thought that interesting as the “book” loads were for the weaker model 96. Swede action

The other one ( a carbine) kept going past book. I don’t remember it’s floor plate but I think it was the later aluminum plate. It kept on keeping on. I finally just called it good

 

[Native Hunter]

A few examples of what I was saying from the Nosler Manual:

243 Winchester with 100 grain bullet
* 10 powders are shown
* 5 powders delivered the best accuracy with a max load
* The remaining 5 were all with a middle of the road load and none were most accurate at the starting load (lowest pressure and velocity)
* The overall winner of all powders was a max load of RL 17,

300 Winchester Magnum with 180 grain bullet
* 10 powders are shown
* Only one powder delivered the best accuracy with a max load
* Three powders delivered the best accuracy with the starting load (lowest pressure and velocity)
* The remaining powders delivered the best accuracy with a middle of the road load
* The overall winner of all powders was a middle of the road load of H 1000 powder.

I think this shows what I originally stated. It can vary a lot. And, Nosler could bring in a different test rifle and get completely different results.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

A few examples of what I was saying from the Nosler Manual:

243 Winchester with 100 grain bullet
* 10 powders are shown
* 5 powders delivered the best accuracy with a max load
* The remaining 5 were all with a middle of the road load and none were most accurate at the starting load (lowest pressure and velocity)
* The overall winner of all powders was a max load of RL 17,

300 Winchester Magnum with 180 grain bullet
* 10 powders are shown
* Only one powder delivered the best accuracy with a max load
* Three powders delivered the best accuracy with the starting load (lowest pressure and velocity)
* The remaining powders delivered the best accuracy with a middle of the road load
* The overall winner of all powders was a middle of the road load of H 1000 powder.

I think this shows what I originally stated. It can vary a lot. And, Nosler could bring in a different test rifle and get completely different results.

The other thing I wonder is how many shots are they taking to come to these conclusions? 3, 5, or 10 shot groups at a given powder/charge combo? That gets to be a lot of shooting given all the different bullet/charge weight combos and the understanding that it probably takes additional testing just to figure out where they hit SAAMI max pressure.

Hornady published some recent data about statistical variance with a given # of shots in a group. with 5 shot groups, they expected smallest and largest groups to vary 40-50% up and 40-50% down from what the avg group size was. So if a given load averages 1" 5 shot groups, you'd expect the largest group to be about 1.5" and the smallest around 0.5". If Nosler was using 5 shot groups to run these tests it stands to reason that the "most accurate" load result might not even be statistically significant. And that's not even taking into account barrel to barrel differences, powder lot variance, bullet lot variance, etc.

Mostly just rambling here as I'd be curious how Nosler runs these tests! Would be something to see the actual group size with each load rather than just the * and highlighted rows for most accurate to put more context to the data.

 

[Native Hunter]

The other thing I wonder is how many shots are they taking to come to these conclusions? 3, 5, or 10 shot groups at a given powder/charge combo? That gets to be a lot of shooting given all the different bullet/charge weight combos and the understanding that it probably takes additional testing just to figure out where they hit SAAMI max pressure.

Hornady published some recent data about statistical variance with a given # of shots in a group. with 5 shot groups, they expected smallest and largest groups to vary 40-50% up and 40-50% down from what the avg group size was. So if a given load averages 1" 5 shot groups, you'd expect the largest group to be about 1.5" and the smallest around 0.5". If Nosler was using 5 shot groups to run these tests it stands to reason that the "most accurate" load result might not even be statistically significant. And that's not even taking into account barrel to barrel differences, powder lot variance, bullet lot variance, etc.

Mostly just rambling here as I'd be curious how Nosler runs these tests! Would be something to see the actual group size with each load rather than just the * and highlighted rows for most accurate to put more context to the data.

I'm not sure what criteria they use to make their accuracy statements. It may exist somewhere, but I don't remember ever seeing it. Since each gun is so different, I doubt it matters much anyway. The main use of a reloading manual for me is to get a general idea of where to start and where you might start seeing high pressure signs. The velocities and load density information is also useful. When I have used a chronograph, I have found my velocities to be reasonably close to what the manual shows when you consider all pertinent factors.

 

[Foggy47]

I'm not sure what criteria they use to make their accuracy statements. It may exist somewhere, but I don't remember ever seeing it. Since each gun is so different, I doubt it matters much anyway. The main use of a reloading manual for me is to get a general idea of where to start and where you might start seeing high pressure signs. The velocities and load density information is also useful. When I have used a chronograph, I have found my velocities to be reasonably close to what the manual shows when you consider all pertinent factors.

I think that is an accurate assessment on loading manuals. One thing I could add tho.....I have loaded for probably 30 or more rifles over many years. I don't think any of my guns could not be shot at the highest recomended loads in the various manuals. If I have just a bit of experience with a gun.....I will start loads just shy of the max loads and watch for pressure signs from there. It can be difficult to know when you have maxed out. I've taken a couple of strong guns up to the max.....but cannot say accuracy improved at absolute max pressures. Rather, maybe the opposite is the case.

Anymore....I am not interested in max performance.....just good reliable ammo that shoots to reasonable accuracy. Competitive shooting is a whole 'nother thing.