Starting Over.

[SD51555]

And I would not mow it. That system is going to be overflowing with total fertility. Let the broadleaves come. There will be no bad ones, and if there are, they will be few and won’t spread.

This is a great opportunity to see what year 3 and 4 show in an unbroken system. The one challenge will be how to get rye back into that plot because the clover will be tall and thick. I would probably wait until early to mid October to drill another shot of rye in there in hopes the deer can knock down that clover enough that the rye can get some sun and root down before winter.


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[GMan5465]

Foggy, was this your mix of 112# winter rye, 4# radish, 4# yellow sweet clover, 4# medium red clover, 2# white clovers, 1 # PTT, 1# DER. 4# Crimson?

 

[Foggy47]

Foggy, was this your mix of 112# winter rye, 4# radish, 4# yellow sweet clover, 4# medium red clover, 2# white clovers, 1 # PTT, 1# DER. 4# Crimson?

Yep. Pretty much did that on all my plots. About 6 acres - plus.

Also, I now add a bit of chicory to many of my plots.......and sometimes I have some other seeds that I throw in .....just to get some diversity. Last year I also had some peas......and I have some vining still going on. Often I have some "left over" seeds that I will add to these mixes just to use it up......or act as a filler. Gets too hard to write it all down here.....as I run out in some areas and use others in some areas. Seems there is always a few lbs of seed to use up.

 

[GMan5465]

Yep. Pretty much did that on all my plots. About 6 acres - plus.

Perfect! I was planning on copying this in a few areas. It’s in my spreadsheet and labeled “Foggy Mix”.

 

[Foggy47]

Perfect! I was planning on copying this in a few areas. It’s in my spreadsheet and labeled “Foggy Mix”.

Grin. For me....this system is proving to be a winner. I am pretty much in Arizona until mid may. So my late august overseed of rye and more clovers (and a bit of chicory) is fundamental for me. In Spring I got that rye to feed deer before anything else thinks about turning green......then the rye protects the clover and provides fawning cover.......and later becomes fertilizer for succeeding crops.

I really dont have to "do" anything until it's time to roll that rye in July. Then I plant brassica and wait for late August. rinse and repeat. I'm too far north for a "summer release" crop rotation.....and I simply lack enough growing season for that. So.....this is my plan for now.

The wild card going now.......is the Yellow Sweet Clover......and I am hoping that will come on yet this season. I am trying to come up with more vertical cover in parts of my plots so the deer are more comfortable entering in daylight hours. I also am experimenting with Sorghum and using that for both vertical cover and for screening purposes. (May still try to add a little of that here and there this summer ?? If I could get 4 or 5 feet of some stalks here and there.....that could be a huge win.)

 

[matinc]

SD THE GREAT ONE. What do you consider to be mfungi. Foggy I'm jealous. SD with all that rye duff how long before it is gone. Will the clover just eat it.

 

[matinc]

Foggy I'm in michigan and tried buckwheat and summer release around July 4. Crimping down the rye from last fall into the clover. Will wait till labor day to put rye and clover back down again via broadcasting and then crimp what came back up of cc6 summer blend and straight buckwheat. Time will tell how that works.

 

[matinc]

SD. if chickory is a perrenial and if so if it was broadcasted around labor day and then either buckwheat or summer blend was crimped would it push thru the duff from the crimper

 

[birdog]

I started this thread about three weeks ago.....and at that time I thought I was somewhat screwed for clover germination (and sweet clover?) as upon inspection there was very little clover showing in much of my winter rye. I was really surprised.....as I have had such good success with establishing clover over all my land and under various planting scenarios over the past 15 years.

Last week I rolled my rye....and THIS WEEK I GOT CLOVER POKING THRU EVERYWHERE! It's almost magical how much clover has appeared in most of my land. I guess I was a bit impatient and expected more and sooner? Maybe that yellow sweet clover will appear yet? I got a few weeds too....but plan to mow the tops in a few weeks. Here are some pics from today. Very happy.
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the last pic above, is some North Woods Whitetails Sorguhm mixed with a bit of GCC View Blocker ....where I am trying to get some vertical cover and to break up a few bigger plots and get a screen to enter a blind. It's growing quite rapidly now.....and its a bit weedier than I want......but I think it will go fine. May try to throw a little nitrogen on it in another week.

It is amazing how much clover just sits there hiding waiting for the rye to come down. My limited experience is once I mow everything blows up with a timely after mowing rain shower or two.

 

[SD51555]

SD. if chickory is a perrenial and if so if it was broadcasted around labor day and then either buckwheat or summer blend was crimped would it push thru the duff from the crimper

Couple pounds per acre should push thru that just fine. Two pounds per acre is 20 seeds per square foot. Some will punch thru.


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[SD51555]

SD THE GREAT ONE. What do you consider to be mfungi. Foggy I'm jealous. SD with all that rye duff how long before it is gone. Will the clover just eat it.

Mycorhizal fungi is always in the soil. We have to work to eliminate it. Same goes for carbon. It's always being pumped into the soil. We have to work to get both out of there.

When we do a total kill with either chems or iron, that severely knocks back the MF. After 12 months of constant life, your MF is rebounded and humming along.

 

[matinc]

SD. So when rye breaks down on the surface is it both carbon and N P K.

 

[SD51555]

SD. So when rye breaks down on the surface is it both carbon and N P K.

It is carbon, but most of that is lost to the atmosphere. What isn't is pulled below ground by worms. Building below ground carbon is done through root mass and root exudates.

On the same token, whatever the worms pull down, or whatever is eaten and converted to bug poo on the surface can become N and certainly is P and K. The above ground biomass is most important for the physical properties. It keeps your soil cool, keeps your moisture in, keeps your soil from crusting, keeps soil from splashing up on your plants, keeps your soil in place, and keeps your pores open so that when it rains, it gently soaks in after hitting the duff instead of bombing the surface collapsing the pores and running off.

To truly build soil carbon, you just have to stay green, diverse, and push big pounds with what you're growing. A 6' tall diverse jungle will pump way more into the soil than a 4" lawn. The majority is built through living plants pumping liquid C right into the root zone. This is why having big green living biomass on June 21st is so important. That's when you get peak output from the sun to your plants and they pump peak nutrients (including C) into your soil. Once you look at your biomass like an array of solar panels, it starts to make sense.

 

[matinc]

SD. So your saying that Foggy has 933 pounds of triple 19 per acre from his rye mass that was crimped. That's unbelievable. Please explain. Ty

 

[SD51555]

SD. So your saying that Foggy has 933 pounds of triple 19 per acre from his rye mass that was crimped. That's unbelievable. Please explain. Ty

98% of a plant is comprised of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen. The other 2% of the biomass is nutrients and minerals.

14,000 x 2% = 280 lbs

Triple 19 is 57 pounds of nutrients per 100 pounds of product.

280 / .57 = 491 pounds equivalent of 19-19-19 bag fertilizer.

***Looks like my initial math was off (I was driving), but 491 pounds jives with what the rick clark tests in page 3 of this thread shows. He can only test above ground biomass, so I'd just multiply that by 2. Add in a little mineralization of rock bound nutrients in the soil, and 120 tons of earthworm castings per acre per season, and you've got nutrients coming out your ears. The yield limiting factor isn't nutrients. This is why the other things like moisture, soil temp, plentiful mycorhizal fungi, and oxygen matter. You lose any single thing, and that is what will hold back your crop.

 

[omicron1792]

I think your clover was just planted a Little too deep so it took it a bit longer to pop.

 

[matinc]

Foggy it's like going to school and SD is the professor. So SD based on this information how much you believe foggy OM could rise in a year.

 

[SD51555]

Foggy it's like going to school and SD is the professor. So SD based on this information how much you believe foggy OM could rise in a year.

I'm really not sure. When the liquid carbon pathway was rolled out and started garnering more researchers, there were some that came forward and hypothesized it could rise as fast as 1% a year. Some even ran tests and claimed it did just that in the perfect system. Trouble is, carbon doesn't sit still, it's always moving. It's gasing off into the atmosphere, it's being consumed in the soil. Instead of focusing on that number, focus on your system's capacity to produce carbon (size and all season duration of plants) and your system's ability to utilize it (size and all season duration of plants).

We always end up back at the same place.

1. Stay green all year
2. Stay highly diverse
3. Stay balanced

 

[Foggy47]

I said I would post more weekly pics......these are two weeks after crimping my rye.......and last week I applied herbicide to the weedy areas. The heribicide seems to have worked pretty well......and I decided to hold off mowing until we get more rain. Clover keeps coming on strong now.....as the rye diminishes. Lots of deer in the plots at all times of the day.

Pretty happy right now......because a month ago I thought I had lost most of my clover. Not sure if I am going to see that yellow sweet clover. I'll sure get along with these results.....one way or the other.

 

[Tree Spud]

I said I would post more weekly pics......these are two weeks after crimping my rye.......and last week I applied herbicide to the weedy areas. The heribicide seems to have worked pretty well......and I decided to hold off mowing until we get more rain. Clover keeps coming on strong now.....as the rye diminishes. Lots of deer in the plots at all times of the day.

Pretty happy right now......because a month ago I thought I had lost most of my clover. Not sure if I am going to see that yellow sweet clover. I'll sure get along with these results.....one way or the other.

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Looks great! Clover is pretty resilient.