Your nest predator theory is a common one. Trapping seems to be the new hinge cutting. Peer reviewed data I’ve heard about (on the referenced podcast) invariably concludes that trapping has minimal impact and good habitat trumps.
Some amazing habitat stats in this episode
- Thread starter Howboutthemdawgs
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omicron1792
5 year old buck +
Telemark
5 year old buck +
I would like to see that data. Obviously you need good habitat for a species to thrive. But aggressive elimination of predators most likely improves populations of prey species. Any data that concludes otherwise would be very interesting to read, specially when it comes to ground nesting birds.
I have read both ways. I have done pretty much all the habitat work on my property I can do, save some serious work with a $400 per hour mulcher on some big cedar stands and some over stocked ash stands. I dont have the cash. For no money - because I have had the traps for years, I can hit the nest predators fairly hard. It is actually fun and challenging work. I have been doing this for six years now. Coincidently - or not - I have had multiple gobblers and hens on my 400 acres the last three years - while my much larger land owner neighbors do not.
I am not saying predator removal is always the answer - but neither is habitat improvement. I have seen very little data that indicates good habitat out produces turkey production in fair habitat - both with high predator densities.
Telemark
5 year old buck +
My understanding is it depends how aggressive you are in eliminating predators. This is what I have read as it applies to raccoons, coyotes, and even pigs. Casually shooting or trapping one or two here and there doesn't seem to help, and can even have a negative effect. But aggressive elimination of dozens of predators in a given area tends to have a positive effect on populations of prey species.
I always like reading your perspective. Have you listened to these guys’ podcasts?
The articles are specifically cited in the podcasts. It’s actually much more technical than a lot of similar podcasts. Less entertainment.
Howboutthemdawgs
5 year old buck +
Agreed. These guys are awesome. Additionally, and most importantly, they deal in scientific studies and not rely heavily on anecdotes. I feel like that is a bad problem the amateur wildlife manager hangs their hat on too much.
omicron1792
5 year old buck +
I agree. I like data too.
I will say scientists and wildlife manager don’t always have the same goals when looking at things.
All the studies say feeding deer doesn’t help the deer population. However, there is zero doubt that feeding deer congregates deer on your property and probably helps the health of those specific deer.
I run into that in medicine a lot. A large study might not “show a benefit” in 146,000 people. But if you tease out the data it might have helped a certain subgroup live 6 months longer. That might not be enough to approve an expensive drug, but would you want it for your wife or kid to have 6 More months?
Just rambling this morning.
Yes - and as usually happens - a person applies their own local knowledge and experience. My local knowledge and experience comes from living in an area where likely 75% of the land type is commercial timberland - and in particular, loblolly pine. This land is owned in large part by companies like weyerhauser, potlach, deltic, IP, anthony timberlands - and smaller acreages of private ownership. This land was utilized as commercial timberlands in 1980 when I started hunting it and still is today. In addition, I spent a lot of time on national forest land - with most of it in large acreages of wilderness area - no silvicultural practices - mature mixed pine hardwood in 1980 and still is today.
The point being, the two areas are very different - but what they have in common is a precipitous decline in turkey numbers after having high turkey density for many years. I can not remember a single recent turkey study I have read that did not conclude that low nest success and poult survival is directly due to predation. Surely, indirect contributing causes run the gamut from habitat type to wet weather - but predation wins the direct cause award. Many of these studies attempt to separate nest survival by habitat type - but so far - i have not seen where any one single habitat type is far and away better at improving nest success.
Which brings me to my point. I own 400 acres. I dont manage for cattle, timber, or hay production like my neighbors. I have converted my fescue pasture to nwsg. I have 40 acres of food plots. I have maybe 40 acres of of largely mature cedar I would like to eradicate - but it is all kinds of expensive. I could possibly do a little additional timber work - but overall - I am satisfied with my habitat improvements.
Even at that, I had no turkeys - maybe a wandering stray a couple times a year. My 1200 acre neighbor on one side and 1400 acre neighbor on the other side do not have turkeys, either. It is much less expensive - and a lot more fun - for me to engage in trapping activities than timber practices. I have been trapping early to mid spring the last ten years. Five years ago, a turkey or two showed up in the spring. My spring turkey population has gradually increased - but they are absent from Aug through Feb. My two big landowner neighbors still have no turkeys. Coincidental or not - turkeys showed up on my place when I consistently employed spring trapping. I dont know if they come because of less pressure by predators, or if there is actually some nesting success on my place and the successful hens and their poults imprint on my place.
Most of us can not afford to create and maintain the PERFECT turkey habitat. My cattle ranching neighbors are not ever going to entertain the thought of converting fescue to nwsg. And incidentally, these neighbors dont have horrible land for turkeys - something like 60% of their acreage is forested. Turkeys, quail, rabbits, and cotton rats used to exist in mediocre habitat - but with few predators. Typically, these species now only exist in the SE on highly managed, excellent habitat.
I can not afford to make the perfect habitat. I can afford to trap. Unfortunately, I dont see there being large scale favorable turkey habitat improvement or large scale trapping effort or demand. I know there are still isolated areas in the SE, outside of intensively managed private lands, that maintain decent turkey numbers. I would love to see research done in those areas to determine how and why turkeys are successful there - instead of research in all these other areas tying to determine why there is a declining turkey population and coming up with the exact same answer - every time - predation.
i apologize for the long, rambling answer.
The thing that stands out to me about your experience, which is also talked about at length in several of these podcasts, is that the heyday for turkey populations coincides closely with reintroduction efforts. This fact makes it hard to draw conclusions about habitat and predators, then vs now.
I’m really not worried about how big an impact trapping is or isn’t. I am a fanboy because of their data-backed stance on baiting, though.
Telemark
5 year old buck +
I listened to #116 and #118, and their conclusion was not that trapping has a minimal effect. Their conclusion is the data is poor. The studies the referenced are from the 70's in areas where predation was not a problem, at a time when predator populations were much lower. The meta study concluded that predator control had a positive effect on bird populations.
Yes - I agree about the reintroductions. I understand that a new lake with new habitat is a rich environment and as the reservoir ages, often the fertility declines and the lake will not support the same biomass as it once did. I dont understand that concept being applied to turkey re-introductions. The turkey habitat does not necessarily decline with age - as does the fertility of a lake. I know of many places where the habitat has improved over past years - I am surrounded by it - including my own land - yet there are not nearly as many turkeys as there once were. In The area I started hunting turkeys in 1980 - they were already there in adequate numbers - and as the rest of the state saw turkey reintroductions - we also saw increases in population 25 years later in the old historic turkey areas where they already existed. But now, twenty years after our peak - turkeys are gone from many of those areas.
And yet, we see turkeys existing in droves up north, in deep snow, or in the NE where they walk around on suburbanites roof tops - many folks in those areas still consider them a pest - yet they are extinct on many properties in the south where all the required habitat conditions are provided.
I can grow so many deer on my 400 acres they become over populated - yet no habitat improvement I have done will insure an adequate turkey population.
i dont think any of the data can be considered the gospel for all areas. And a lot of the data is very dated. I have read studies that concluded trapping helped considerably, other studies where it didnt, and some that said it didnt Overly help. Personally, I consider any help a success. But for sure, trapping and/or habitat improvement is not a guarantee of improving turkey numbers on your land.
Brian662
5 year old buck +
I'd be really surprised if trapping wasn't effective for turkey populations.
Back when I was more of a waterfowl hunter than deer hunter, there used to be studies done by Delta Waterfowl and Ducks Unlimited about how successful their lands (nest success)were/weren't depending on predator control. This differences were huge, like 3:1 or greater if I recall correctly.
Back when I was more of a waterfowl hunter than deer hunter, there used to be studies done by Delta Waterfowl and Ducks Unlimited about how successful their lands (nest success)were/weren't depending on predator control. This differences were huge, like 3:1 or greater if I recall correctly.
Howboutthemdawgs
5 year old buck +
I think it’s death by a thousand cuts. And in a way they are somewhat confirming that by not being able to pinpoint the exact reason yet establishing a lot of reasons.
Habitat is always and issue. Both loss of quality and straight up loss of land. Been talked about thoroughly.
Predators. Hardly anyone one traps anymore. No one shoots hawks anymore. Hawks are hell on quail and poults. These things are coming back to haunt us.
Hunter efficacy. We have almost become too good at hunting them. And then combine the almost unethical development of tss/hevi shot type shells and we have are killing/wounding a lot of birds that would have gotten a pass 10-15 years ago. 60-70 yard shots are being taken. How about turkey fan/strutting decoys. Gobblers lose their minds over these things. I know it’s already illegal in some states (Alabama?). We have outsmarted a bird brain with our superior knowledge and technology.
Season structures. Maybe? States use to be open too early when the majority of breeding took place. Georgia, Alabama, Tenn all moved theirs back. Others too I’m sure. Lowering limits and eliminating fall seasons and shooting bearded hens should all hopefully help.
Aflotoxins with feed and seed. I’m sure there’s something to that too.
There are some big picture changes that will hopefully be made a state levels that will positively impact the species. On a small scale we can do some things but that’s up to the individual. Personally, I’m one bird and done on my farm. I exclusively still hunt with lead shot. I don’t use decoys. Obviously I work on habitat as much as time and money dictate. My baiting is reserved to defensive deer baiting between sept and Dec. i trapped some starting in January and let a neighbor coon hunt after deer season. Will it help, maybe, but it certainly won’t hurt. Heard someone say “never pin your hopes and dreams on a ground nesting bird.” I just hope we are wise and mature enough to prevent what has happened to the quail, happen to the turkey.
Habitat is always and issue. Both loss of quality and straight up loss of land. Been talked about thoroughly.
Predators. Hardly anyone one traps anymore. No one shoots hawks anymore. Hawks are hell on quail and poults. These things are coming back to haunt us.
Hunter efficacy. We have almost become too good at hunting them. And then combine the almost unethical development of tss/hevi shot type shells and we have are killing/wounding a lot of birds that would have gotten a pass 10-15 years ago. 60-70 yard shots are being taken. How about turkey fan/strutting decoys. Gobblers lose their minds over these things. I know it’s already illegal in some states (Alabama?). We have outsmarted a bird brain with our superior knowledge and technology.
Season structures. Maybe? States use to be open too early when the majority of breeding took place. Georgia, Alabama, Tenn all moved theirs back. Others too I’m sure. Lowering limits and eliminating fall seasons and shooting bearded hens should all hopefully help.
Aflotoxins with feed and seed. I’m sure there’s something to that too.
There are some big picture changes that will hopefully be made a state levels that will positively impact the species. On a small scale we can do some things but that’s up to the individual. Personally, I’m one bird and done on my farm. I exclusively still hunt with lead shot. I don’t use decoys. Obviously I work on habitat as much as time and money dictate. My baiting is reserved to defensive deer baiting between sept and Dec. i trapped some starting in January and let a neighbor coon hunt after deer season. Will it help, maybe, but it certainly won’t hurt. Heard someone say “never pin your hopes and dreams on a ground nesting bird.” I just hope we are wise and mature enough to prevent what has happened to the quail, happen to the turkey.
Telemark
5 year old buck +
This is pretty much my understanding. That is to say, it depends. And it mostly depends on whether or not predators are a major problem for the population you are trying to help. Additionally, if you have poor habitat, the birds will either die anyway or disperse off of your land even if you are able to protect them from predation.
I guess I’d like to have back the ‘minimal’ comment, understanding how subjective a term that is.
Wild Turkey Science has only done 20 something episodes and their show notes have many citations from the 2000s. While many of the articles they’ve discussed are about ground nesting birds, quail, and not specifically turkeys, I’ve definitely drawn the conclusion that they’d not recommend trapping over nesting and brooding habitat optimization. I also haven’t drawn the conclusion they’d recommend against trapping.
Summary, completely agree that there’s certainly opportunity, need out there for more relevant data!
I have seen a reluctance by most biologists - including most state DNR’s - to skirt the predator issue. Almost every recent turkey research, beyond a shadow of a doubt, shows predators are the most detrimental direct factor concerning turkey nesting success - yet you will rarely see a member of that community advocating removal of predators. It is much less controversial to promote improving habitat than it is to promote killing cute, warm, fuzzy creatures.
Turkey management is tough compared to deer. Small property owners can often make a difference with the local deer herd, but turkey habitat usually has to be done at scale. I can keep the local deer herd coming to my front yard the right choice of supplemental feed. I cant keep turkeys on my property year round, even with an extensive food plot system, supplemental feed, upgraded habitat, and reduced predator load.
omicron1792
5 year old buck +
Agree. Biologists stay in their lane with habitat and don’t want to talk about predators. Does the debate a disservice.
