Some amazing habitat stats in this episode

[Howboutthemdawgs]

If any of y’all care about the wild Turkey and it’s decline, this podcast is one to subscribe to. This particular episode is incredible. To see the landscape and how it’s changed in our recent history is eye opening. Here’s one stat…less than 2 million acres of pine plantations in the 50’s to 32 million by the end of the 90’s!!

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/wild-turkey-science/id1666903553?i=1000609283154

 

[omicron1792]

If any of y’all care about the wild Turkey and it’s decline, this podcast is one to subscribe to. This particular episode is incredible. To see the landscape and how it’s changed in our recent history is eye opening. Here’s one stat…less than 2 million acres of pine plantations in the 50’s to 32 million by the end of the 90’s!!

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/wild-turkey-science/id1666903553?i=1000609283154

These stats are misleading to me if you don’t go back a lot further.

In 1950 alabama was 90 percent small parcel crop land surrounded by woody brush between parcels. Guess what thrives during that time, quail.

But if you go back to 1850 the lands scape was totally different. It was 90% mixed species, pine, or hardwood forests. Many of the large trees had been harvested and canopy closure had developed.

If you go back to 1450, most of alabama was pine or hardwood savanna with wide open grasslands and 150 feet 10 foot diameter trees widely spaced without a closed canopy.

I say all this to say which one is correct? 1950 because that’s when our dads grew up? 1450 because it was pre human intervention? 1850 because we had a balance of humans and nature?

The world has always changed imo and the idea we are doing something wrong and we should go back to how our dads had it doesn’t make sense to me.

Btw, In alabama in 1950 wild deer and turkey were basically extinct. Everything was cropland and they had no place to live. So the gov did a massive repopulation with large tract timber owners who were popping up at the time. It’s the reason we have deer and turkey to hunt now. And our dads and grandads generation let them go extinct.

 

[b116757]

Context is everything

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

These stats are misleading to me if you don’t go back a lot further.

In 1950 alabama was 90 percent small parcel crop land surrounded by woody brush between parcels. Guess what thrives during that time, quail.

But if you go back to 1850 the lands scape was totally different. It was 90% mixed species, pine, or hardwood forests. Many of the large trees had been harvested and canopy closure had developed.

If you go back to 1450, most of alabama was pine or hardwood savanna with wide open grasslands and 150 feet 10 foot diameter trees widely spaced without a closed canopy.

I say all this to say which one is correct? 1950 because that’s when our dads grew up? 1450 because it was pre human intervention? 1850 because we had a balance of humans and nature?

The world has always changed imo and the idea we are doing something wrong and we should go back to how our dads had it doesn’t make sense to me.

Btw, In alabama in 1950 wild deer and turkey were basically extinct. Everything was cropland and they had no place to live. So the gov did a massive repopulation with large tract timber owners who were popping up at the time. It’s the reason we have deer and turkey to hunt now. And our dads and grandads generation let them go extinct.

Im not sure the intent was to place blame as much as it was to show the reason why. Pine plantations are deserts for most of their existing. When you have a 16x increase in a particular landscape type that provides little benefit to wildlife there will be an impact, and we are seeing that impact today. Additionally there staggering amounts of the southeast in fescue and Bermuda. Another landscape type that provides no/very little benefit to wildlife. These are just contributing reasons to the decline of the turkey in modern times. I don’t guess there is a right or wrong there is a just a reason.
Pie in the sky utopia, landscape would be returned to pre-man’s impact but yeah that ain’t happening. We might as well use our knowledge of what wildlife needs/wants and for those of us who choose to make that difference, act upon it.

 

[omicron1792]

Im not sure the intent was to place blame as much as it was to show the reason why. Pine plantations are deserts for most of their existing. When you have a 16x increase in a particular landscape type that provides little benefit to wildlife there will be an impact, and we are seeing that impact today. Additionally there staggering amounts of the southeast in fescue and Bermuda. Another landscape type that provides no/very little benefit to wildlife. These are just contributing reasons to the decline of the turkey in modern times. I don’t guess there is a right or wrong there is a just a reason.
Pie in the sky utopia, landscape would be returned to pre-man’s impact but yeah that ain’t happening. We might as well use our knowledge of what wildlife needs/wants and for those of us who choose to make that difference, act upon it.

I was agreeing with you my man. Just something I think about a lot.

My main goal for my property is to return property to its 1450 state. It will be a natural paradise, but you know what….it might end up being poor for deer hunting. Or turkey. Or quail. Or none. Or both. Who knows! It just feels like the right thing for me to do.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I was agreeing with you my man. Just something I think about a lot.

My main goal for my property is to return property to its 1450 state. It will be a natural paradise, but you know what….it might end up being poor for deer hunting. Or turkey. Or quail. Or none. Or both. Who knows! It just feels like the right thing for me to do.

Oh I know I was just blabbing! But I hear you on intent. I have a goal to return some quail to my landscape. Obviously I want to benefit deer and Turkey, and improving for quail will do that, but I feel like quail is that keynote species. If you have quail you have proper habitat.

 

[omicron1792]

Oh I know I was just blabbing! But I hear you on intent. I have a goal to return some quail to my landscape. Obviously I want to benefit deer and Turkey, and improving for quail will do that, but I feel like quail is that keynote species. If you have quail you have proper habitat.

Agreed. If I could pick one it would be quail also. I have a few wild coveys but I would love it to be full.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Agreed. If I could pick one it would be quail also. I have a few wild coveys but I would love it to be full.

Not trying to give away the whole podcast but they had one farm in ky that had 1000 acres of fescue. After spraying out the fescue and returning to native grasses it went from 9 coveys to 60 coveys in 3 years!

 

[omicron1792]

Not trying to give away the whole podcast but they had one farm in ky that had 1000 acres of fescue. After spraying out the fescue and returning to native grasses it went from 9 coveys to 60 coveys in 3 years!

So cool!

For me it’s ridding of the early successional hardwoods (damn sweet gum) and keeping the canopy open. I have a little Johnson, dallis and vasey grass but not many of the other invasive grasses. I do have kudzu which I battle with a vengeance.

 

[Hoytvectrix]

Oh I know I was just blabbing! But I hear you on intent. I have a goal to return some quail to my landscape. Obviously I want to benefit deer and Turkey, and improving for quail will do that, but I feel like quail is that keynote species. If you have quail you have proper habitat.

With the new farm we recently bought, I was planning on doing just this. It is kind of interesting when you look into Quail populations over time. It sounds like the quail numbers were much lower than what they were in the 1900's, when they are thought to have peaked. So restoring to native quail population levels might be a moving target. Regardless, I think it is pretty exciting to see other people's success with bring quail back. About 95% of the reason we bought this new farm was in order to improve our deer hunting. It wasn't until we started learning more about the farm, did we think it would work well for quail as well.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

With the new farm we recently bought, I was planning on doing just this. It is kind of interesting when you look into Quail populations over time. It sounds like the quail numbers were much lower than what they were in the 1900's, when they are thought to have peaked. So restoring to native quail population levels might be a moving target. Regardless, I think it is pretty exciting to see other people's success with bring quail back. About 95% of the reason we bought this new farm was in order to improve our deer hunting. It wasn't until we started learning more about the farm, did we think it would work well for quail as well.

I have no idea how to calculate numbers or coveys and whatnot, but Sunday morning I heard three birds calling from the porch. I enjoyed that more than the turkeys I heard and I love turkeys!

 

[Telemark]

My habitat goals are maximum biomass and biodiversity. I don't believe nature is always right. Unfortunately, landscapes that I find pleasing to the eye tend to be devoid of wildlife. Turns out, the uglier I make a property, the more animals like it.

 

[Brian662]

My habitat goals are maximum biomass and biodiversity. I don't believe nature is always right. Unfortunately, landscapes that I find pleasing to the eye tend to be devoid of wildlife. Turns out, the uglier I make a property, the more animals like it.

Oak savanna is that way up here. It's beautiful landscape but there just isn't much to sustain life between November and April around here.

 

[SwampCat]

Our state, and much of the south - had very few turkeys in the 50’s. I started hunting turkeys in 1980. Arkansas total annual harvest was 3000 turkeys at that time. It peaked in the early 2000’s at around 21,000. The increase in wild turkeys coincided with the increase in pine stands. My business partner bought a farm in east GA in 2001. We killed our turkeys in the pine plantations. The number one county for turkeys currently in my state is the middle of the commercial timberlands of south AR - not the expansive hardwoods of the Ozarks.

Not coincidently, that is where the most deer live in AR, also. The poult production is better in the commercial timberland area of south AR than anywhere else in the state. My opinion is , pine plantations starting out as clearcuts and ending as clearcuts, with the mature thinned pines providing a lot of grass and cover - provide a much better habitat for nesting than do large mature forests of the Ozarks.

Our turkeys, sorry to say - like across much of the south - peaked 20 years ago. Our harvest is down 66 percent - and barring five consecutive years of favorable nesting weather - I dont see a path back to the good old days.

 

[GoldenTriangleIL]

Omicron highlights something I have struggled with myself. What should the landscape ideally look like? Most purists are attempting to achieve some type pre-colonization utopia. However, as mentioned, that landscape may not support the numbers of huntable game we would prefer. Prior to mass destruction of habitat, the landscape was in flux of grasslands v closed canopy forest. With the most game rich environments (assumption on my part) likely being those areas with the most disturbance, the front lines of this battle between hardwoods and grass. In those areas you would have diverse environments and large carrying capacity for many species. Therefore, my management goal is not to restore the habitat to any point in time, but to maximize the carrying capacity of all native floral and fauna, especially the more rare species. The balancing act comes into play when managing for quail v turkey v deer. My personal observation in the midwest is that most landscapes would benefit heavily from more "weeds."

 

[SwampCat]

In the 80’s and very early 90’s - I averaged killing over 150 quail per year. All of these birds came off commercial pine timberland - with the majority coming out of clearcut. At that same time, much of that same time, about two months out of the year, I was running a trapline - as were a lot of other folks. With three dozen traps, I would average maybe three coons a day. A couple years ago, when one of my grand daughters was six years old, we went out with a dozen dog proof traps. I set them, and she picked the spots, put them in the ground, and baited them. In two nights, we caught 14 coons and a possum.

I bring that up to say this - in the 70’s and 80’s - we had turkey, quail, and rabbits living just fine in marginal habitat. Cotton rats were so numerous they were a nuisance when working a young bird dog. Besides me, I know of no one else in my area that traps. I only do it to remove a few predators prior to nesting and fawning season. Good habitat no longer produces quail, rabbits, and turkeys. I have no cotton rats. I used to see dozens when bush hogging a two acre field. I dont have to put up any tree guards to prevent damage by mice, rats, or voles - I have never had a tree damaged by any of these animals - because there arent any. We have next to no snakes. I you are a ground nesting small animal - you dont exist here in any numbers.

I have what I consider to be decent habitat - but I dont have it at scale. I do have a few turkeys, but I am convinced if I quit hammering the coons and possums, they will go away. None of my neighbors have turkeys. The large large neighboring properties - 1000 to 1400 acres - are a beautiful even mix of rolling timber and Pasture. Unfortunately - this is cattle country and the farmers here plant fescue - they dont kill it. These folks are not going to up and convert their pasture to nwsg.

We have deer - and squirrels. I believe squirrels are able to make it because they nest in a hole in a tree. But if you are a ground nesting animal - you dont live here, anymore.

 

[omicron1792]

Omicron highlights something I have struggled with myself. What should the landscape ideally look like? Most purists are attempting to achieve some type pre-colonization utopia. However, as mentioned, that landscape may not support the numbers of huntable game we would prefer. Prior to mass destruction of habitat, the landscape was in flux of grasslands v closed canopy forest. With the most game rich environments (assumption on my part) likely being those areas with the most disturbance, the front lines of this battle between hardwoods and grass. In those areas you would have diverse environments and large carrying capacity for many species. Therefore, my management goal is not to restore the habitat to any point in time, but to maximize the carrying capacity of all native floral and fauna, especially the more rare species. The balancing act comes into play when managing for quail v turkey v deer. My personal observation in the midwest is that most landscapes would benefit heavily from more "weeds."

Such a great point. That’s why I believe in checkerboard, clearcutting, and fire.
Where I live in the south nature gives both with spring thunderstorms. Lightning causes fire, tornadoes would clear-cut areas. That’s why I am doing both.

I have about 50 acres that I clear-cut this past winter. Also have about 20 acres of food plots. Right now, I am getting most of my deer pictures my man in the new growth of the clear-cut areas. They literally cannot stay out of it.

 

[omicron1792]

In the 80’s and very early 90’s - I averaged killing over 150 quail per year. All of these birds came off commercial pine timberland - with the majority coming out of clearcut. At that same time, much of that same time, about two months out of the year, I was running a trapline - as were a lot of other folks. With three dozen traps, I would average maybe three coons a day. A couple years ago, when one of my grand daughters was six years old, we went out with a dozen dog proof traps. I set them, and she picked the spots, put them in the ground, and baited them. In two nights, we caught 14 coons and a possum.

I bring that up to say this - in the 70’s and 80’s - we had turkey, quail, and rabbits living just fine in marginal habitat. Cotton rats were so numerous they were a nuisance when working a young bird dog. Besides me, I know of no one else in my area that traps. I only do it to remove a few predators prior to nesting and fawning season. Good habitat no longer produces quail, rabbits, and turkeys. I have no cotton rats. I used to see dozens when bush hogging a two acre field. I dont have to put up any tree guards to prevent damage by mice, rats, or voles - I have never had a tree damaged by any of these animals - because there arent any. We have next to no snakes. I you are a ground nesting small animal - you dont exist here in any numbers.

I have what I consider to be decent habitat - but I dont have it at scale. I do have a few turkeys, but I am convinced if I quit hammering the coons and possums, they will go away. None of my neighbors have turkeys. The large large neighboring properties - 1000 to 1400 acres - are a beautiful even mix of rolling timber and Pasture. Unfortunately - this is cattle country and the farmers here plant fescue - they dont kill it. These folks are not going to up and convert their pasture to nwsg.

We have deer - and squirrels. I believe squirrels are able to make it because they nest in a hole in a tree. But if you are a ground nesting animal - you dont live here, anymore.

I think predators are a big deal now. I think early issues were all habitat. But now, I just don’t think kids go out with the 410 and shoot possums and raccoons. I don’t think people stay up all night raccoon hunting or have raccoon dogs. I think the ban on killing hawks in the return of the eagle hurts. I think the growth of coyote populations hurts.

 

[omicron1792]

I think we as hunters also have to change what we hunt sometimes. Maybe Coyote, pig and raccoon hunting, becomes a bigger sport.

 

[SwampCat]

I think we as hunters also have to change what we hunt sometimes. Maybe Coyote, pig and raccoon hunting, becomes a bigger sport.

In areas like mine - if you want to hunt something with a realistic chance for success - you have to switch. I actually find trapping enjoyable and challenging. I live hog hunting. I used to hog hunt more than any other hunting - but hogs have become relatively uncommon here - I believe the USDA is have considerable hog trapping success.