Soil Hard Pan and Survey interpretation

[DRG3]

Hello-

I still currently use a tiller to install my food plots. I am curious about how to learn to recognize if I am getting hard pan from tillage, how often to do deep tillage and what options there are for this tillage. First I want to understand if its even needed.
I got on the web soil survey to look at my area in far NW Kentucky.
Its listed as a moderately well drained silt loam with 20-39 inches to the fragipan- which I'll not ever be going that deep because I doubt I have the equipment to do so. slopes are 2-6%.

I may be over thinking all of this, because my plots still grow, but I want to understand and learn what to look for and how to manage.

Thanks in advance.

 

[yoderjac]

There are lots of benefits from no-till/min-till methods. You can avoid many of the issues associated with deep and/or frequent tillage and still get great deer food while preserving soil health and lowering or eliminating commercial fertilizer costs.

A tiller can be a great tool for min till. I use the 3pt hitch to hold it so high that the tines barely touch the top inch of soil. This is enough to scuff it up for good seed soil contact. A cultipacker then can be used. Except for large seeded row crops like beans and corn where you need a no-till drill, this method works well for most of the seeds we plant.

Check out "Ray the Soil Guy" for the principles as well as Crimson n Camo's Throw and Mow thread for how to apply those principles with small equipment.

 

[SD51555]

Hello-

I still currently use a tiller to install my food plots. I am curious about how to learn to recognize if I am getting hard pan from tillage, how often to do deep tillage and what options there are for this tillage. First I want to understand if its even needed.
I got on the web soil survey to look at my area in far NW Kentucky.
Its listed as a moderately well drained silt loam with 20-39 inches to the fragipan- which I'll not ever be going that deep because I doubt I have the equipment to do so. slopes are 2-6%.

I may be over thinking all of this, because my plots still grow, but I want to understand and learn what to look for and how to manage.

Thanks in advance.

A few things happen when you begin to have hard pan/tillage troubles:

*You get hard pan/tillage weeds like dandelion, plantain, marestail, horsetail, pigweed, thistle, lambsquarter, ragweed.
*Water won't soak in as well, so you'll need more frequent and less intense rains to keep a crop alive.
*Your plants will just look sickly because they're lacking soil oxygen.
*Your plots cannot survive without added fertilizer.

Some soils can take it very well. Others get broken once (like mine) and all hell breaks loose.

 

[FarmerDan]

You don't have hardpan, I'd bet the farm on it. There's a natural hardpan that can occur when certain soil based elements cause the molecular ions to fuse. I'm not sure if it was God or the village idiot made me write that last sentence. The other hardpan is manmade. It comes from repeatedly driving heavy equipment (like tons and tons) over soil that's easily compressed. Moisture has some to do with it, but so to does the type of soil and its components like organic matter.

If you're really concerned get yourself a stiff round rod maybe 1/8 to 1/4 inch dia. Put a nice point on it. And a handle is handy. If you can push that rod into your soil more than 12-inches (or more) you don't have hardpan. Hitting tree roots and rocks doesn't count and do it when the soil is fairly moist.

You'll find other methods in here - if you wish to pursue it.
https://myfarmlife.com/crop-care/how-to-test-for-soil-compaction/

 

[rocksnstumps]

*You get hard pan/tillage weeds like dandelion, plantain, marestail, horsetail, pigweed, thistle, lambsquarter, ragweed.

Curious how you came up with that list or what the source is. Some of those I dont have to deal with much while others like pigweed and lambsquarter agree do seem more prevalent right after tillage but once grass and clover takes over they disappear (but zillions of seeds just waiting for a second chance)

A few on that list are just super good at growing practically anywhere like dandelion and thistles. My yard has always been grass, ok weeds too for over 25 yrs and never tilled or sprayed for that matter, just mowed and dandelions make a showing ever year. Amazing when you do a fly in to some really remote spot in Canada and there is a clearing with some sun hitting the ground and one of the few weeds you always seem to find is dandelions.

Thistle came on strong after herbicide prep prior to a tree planting and areas grazed by cows can really become overgrown with thistles over time if left unchecked. No tillage involved, in fact the so called buffalo, err cow method seems to favor them. Cows have been gone for over 20 yrs at my place and still battle pockets of thistles which always seem to thrive by big boulders the brush hog can't reach and better bring some 40,000+ lb equipment first if you want to try some tillage in those spots.

 

[SD51555]

Curious how you came up with that list or what the source is. Some of those I dont have to deal with much while others like pigweed and lambsquarter agree do seem more prevalent right after tillage but once grass and clover takes over they disappear (but zillions of seeds just waiting for a second chance)

A few on that list are just super good at growing practically anywhere like dandelion and thistles. My yard has always been grass, ok weeds too for over 25 yrs and never tilled or sprayed for that matter, just mowed and dandelions make a showing ever year. Amazing when you do a fly in to some really remote spot in Canada and there is a clearing with some sun hitting the ground and one of the few weeds you always seem to find is dandelions.

Thistle came on strong after herbicide prep prior to a tree planting and areas grazed by cows can really become overgrown with thistles over time if left unchecked. No tillage involved, in fact the so called buffalo, err cow method seems to favor them. Cows have been gone for over 20 yrs at my place and still battle pockets of thistles which always seem to thrive by big boulders the brush hog can't reach and better bring some 40,000+ lb equipment first if you want to try some tillage in those spots.

I don't remember where I found it. All of those weeds do not associate with mycorhizal fungi (MF) to acquire nutrients and they love bought fertilizer. A tillage pass wipes out mycorhizal fungi (the engine of biological nutrient acquisition), and that is why those weeds do so well: all their competition has been removed.

Lawns cannot support a full ecosystem. Your roots are only as deep as your shoots above ground. A typical lawn is always trending towards compaction and lack of N, so in comes the thistle, clover, and dandelion to help, but nobody wants those plants in their lawn.

A pasture can be equally as hard to manage. Where I grew up, we had hilltops in the pasture that grew giant bull thistle, and no grass. We never rotated cattle, and it got so poor out there we could hit golf balls with irons and never lose a ball anywhere in the pasture. I grew up and left the farm life before rotational grazing ever caught on. I'd love to go visit Greg Judy or Joel Salatin and see how these guys run hundreds of cattle in one herd and move them every day. Those guys are printing money right now.

 

[rocksnstumps]

A couple thoughts. If mycorzihal fungi or lack of is a common factor, than herbicide use like gly also must reduce MF as spray and pray followed by tossing out seeds has also brought a flush of thistles in the past. Some of the no till common practices of lots of herbicide use can be just as bad as tillage one might say.

Not following the compaction theory on lawns. After decades of freeze thaw cycles and seeing only light equipment with turf tires which help spread weight even more do not believe my lawn has a compaction issue. More like nature hates a mono culture and tries to grow as much stuff as it can in a given space. In the case of a lawn, that extra diversity has to be adapted to being mowed time after time all during the growing cycle.

 

[SD51555]

A couple thoughts. If mycorzihal fungi or lack of is a common factor, than herbicide use like gly also must reduce MF as spray and pray followed by tossing out seeds has also brought a flush of thistles in the past. Some of the no till common practices of lots of herbicide use can be just as bad as tillage one might say.

Not following the compaction theory on lawns. After decades of freeze thaw cycles and seeing only light equipment with turf tires which help spread weight even more do not believe my lawn has a compaction issue. More like nature hates a mono culture and tries to grow as much stuff as it can in a given space. In the case of a lawn, that extra diversity has to be adapted to being mowed time after time all during the growing cycle.

You're exactly right on spraying doing just as much to wake up that same group of weeds. I haven't seen much talk of spraying causing compaction, but I firmly believe it does, by the same mechanism lawns get it.

As far as lawns go, the reason there's compaction isn't because of actual compression of soil by equipment, it's the lack of organic material that ever reaches deeper than 3". Some lawns do better where they have some depth to the topsoil, but if it's a planned community where they strip the topsoil away, it'll suffer compaction issues more often.