Research on planting techniques

[Mortenson]

Every farmer I have talked to has claimed they can't make any and are barley squeaking by.

Haha, really? Dang I was about to say it's been pretty decent the past few years. But in all honesty we live in a good area for raising crops. I think everyone knows who the strong guys are. And there's always a few running around who I'd be nervous to be their banker. There was a guy here a few years ago who did a good job farming his 400 acres part-time and working a full-time job. Then he became a big deal and cash rented a lot of ground and liked seeing his name in the papers. We went to his machinery auction followed by his home quarter auction. Not sure what the exact moment was that brought him down. Mightve been the 3 brand new Peterbilts he bought with consecutive serial #s. Lol. But to further answer Dawg's question, neither farming practices nor scale dictate who does well. At least I don't see a correlation.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Haha, really? Dang I was about to say it's been pretty decent the past few years. But in all honesty we live in a good area for raising crops. I think everyone knows who the strong guys are. And there's always a few running around who I'd be nervous to be their banker. There was a guy here a few years ago who did a good job farming his 400 acres part-time and working a full-time job. Then he became a big deal and cash rented a lot of ground and liked seeing his name in the papers. We went to his machinery auction followed by his home quarter auction. Not sure what the exact moment was that brought him down. Mightve been the 3 brand new Peterbilts he bought with consecutive serial #s. Lol. But to further answer Dawg's question, neither farming practices nor scale dictate who does well. At least I don't see a correlation.

Thanks for the answer. So what is a predictor of consistent success in row cropping? Good ground and good weather all other things be damned?

 

[FarmerDan]

"So what is a predictor of consistent success in row cropping? Good ground and good weather all other things be damned?"

Sorry to butt in. It's such a fascinating question.

The gift of good land is immeasurable. It's flat and big and easy to work. The soils are deep, well drained and filled with organic matter. The land is an an area with good climate. Reliable precipitation is a given. But high and low temperatures translated into growing degree days are important. Not too high. Not too low.

Such land will produce excellent yields at low cash costs. In many ways the cost to produce a crop is nearly fixed regardless of location, north-south-east-west. The differences on an acre basis are marginal but on a unit basis, cost per bushel, can be huge. That's the effect of yield. Using corn as an example, In the midwest it might cost (cash) $2.75. In the southeast maybe $3.25. If corn is going for $3.00 the midwest farmer is making something and in the southeast I am out of business. It has to start with productive land for the intended crop.

Cost of production -- $/bu or $/lb -- is everything!

Good land will yield well, responds positively to crop inputs, be cheap to work.

Once there is positive cash-flow at the production level the next trick is to find enough land to generate enough cash to service debate, pay for equipment, and provide a decent living.

A hundred years ago farmers in Virginia planted a million acres of corn. Today it's something like 350,000. The unit cost to produce corn is too high and too variable because land in my state is not nearly as productive as what's in the midwest.

Marketing, management, and financial restraint are important, more so where crops are grown on marginal land. In the Mississippi Delta the average cost to produce cotton is 35 to 40 cents a pound. It cotton is selling for 75-cents the money there is easy. Here where I am cotton production expense can approach an amount greater than the average market price. But we keep growing it because the "loan-rate" is higher than our production cost. So, thru smart decision making and management managing to squeeze a nickel out of costs thru adroit management can mean a lot.

And once you find the right combinations it is extremely difficult to give it up to try something new.

 

[FarmerDan]

Yeah. I agree.

Dawg you have to separate farmers from food plotters. We learn to live with weeds to feed deer. If a farmer I could see no till requiring more herbicide.

I think we all probably have a tendency to want to homogenize agriculture. But there are so many different ag enterprises and situations within those enterprises is tough to make a generalization and be correct.

I've been watching production ag a long time and I still wonder what goes into each producer's decision making. I can only share an observation from my seat. This might be more hypothetical than real. But let's suppose my neighbor, someone who plants a traditional soybean-wheat rotation with a year of corn every fourth year, goes full no-till the wheat is likely seeded into either just harvested ' beans or corn and the only impedement is stubble. The wheat is not sprayed. It's harvested in late June, early July and the land is immediately planted with soybeans. They will be 'ready' and will probably be sprayed a month after they are planted. One annual spraying. But I understand it's different other places. We can go thru many different scenarios but in my head I think only two herbicide applications are necessary except in weird situations.

 

[omicron1792]

I think we all probably have a tendency to want to homogenize agriculture. But there are so many different ag enterprises and situations within those enterprises is tough to make a generalization and be correct.

I've been watching production ag a long time and I still wonder what goes into each producer's decision making. I can only share an observation from my seat. This might be more hypothetical than real. But let's suppose my neighbor, someone who plants a traditional soybean-wheat rotation with a year of corn every fourth year, goes full no-till the wheat is likely seeded into either just harvested ' beans or corn and the only impedement is stubble. The wheat is not sprayed. It's harvested in late June, early July and the land is immediately planted with soybeans. They will be 'ready' and will probably be sprayed a month after they are planted. One annual spraying. But I understand it's different other places. We can go thru many different scenarios but in my head I think only two herbicide applications are necessary except in weird situations.

Awesome info.

 

[TreeDaddy]

Awesome info.

Awesome thread

gotta love the arena of ideas

bill

 

[Foggy47]

I have been under the impression that breaking ground encourages seed that has been laying dormant to germinate. I have definitely seen people say no till requires less weed management.

It has for me thus far. I think drilling desired seeds at relatively high rates will "crowd out" the space for weeds to grow. Thus preventing weed growth. Also some of the allopathic effects of crops like rye seem to prevent weed growth. I've been applying far less chemical in the past two years. Mostly the chemical I use is to terminate some clover to allow brassica planting for a fall draw.

 

[matinc]

Remember I planted 600 pounds of rye via broadcasting last labor day weekend. Please tell me if this rye that germinated this year or last year and is now racing to produce seeds. It's only 6 inches tall. Thank you

 

[Foggy47]

Remember I planted 600 pounds of rye via broadcasting last labor day weekend. Please tell me if this rye that germinated this year or last year and is now racing to produce seeds. It's only 6 inches tall. Thank you

Not sure whom your asking here......but those pics sure look like rye to me. That rye should now grow quickly to over 4 feet high.....and will be making seed heads in June and July. You can terminate the rye later by mowing or roller crimping it.

^ That's what I do with mine.....which then releases the clover growing below. I then use some herbicide in order to terminate some clover and will plant fall brassica in those areas. Then overseed rye again in late August. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Foggy47]

Not sure whom your asking here......but those pics sure look like rye to me. That rye should now grow quickly to over 4 feet high.....and will be making seed heads in June and July. You can terminate the rye later by mowing or roller crimping it.

^ That's what I do with mine.....which then releases the clover growing below. I then use some herbicide in order to terminate some clover and will plant fall brassica in those areas. Then overseed rye again in late August. Rinse and repeat.

Not sure how far down "the regenerative ag" path you have gone yet Matinc.....but this system is pretty cool....and far easier than what I used to do.

1. Keeping roots in the ground at all times builds OM and lets your soils thrive. 2. The rye and clover keep the weeds at bay and tend to "crowd out" any space to grow. 3. The crimped rye acts as a mulch for other crops to grow....just like in a garden. 4. Clover and other legumes provide nitrogen which is released when the clover is terminated.....thus providing for subsequent crops. 5. Meanwhile your preventing erosion and rebuilding soils that are otherwise depleted by excessive tillage. 6. The rye provides green food in spring when Northern deer are typically staving. (same goes for fall). 7. In early summer the tall rye provides cover from predators for fawns....while the clover below provides food. Beautiful plan IMO.

 

[matinc]

Hey foggy I just bought my first roller crimper. I was planning as my first year doing no till to broadcast a monoculture of buckwheat on 1.5 acres and broadcast 2 acres of cc6. Which has peas sunflower sorghum millet buckwheat and oats in it. Then crimp the standing rye and leave the clover. Should I spray with gly

 

[Foggy47]

Hey foggy I just bought my first roller crimper. I was planning as my first year doing no till to broadcast a monoculture of buckwheat on 1.5 acres and broadcast 2 acres of cc6. Which has peas sunflower sorghum millet buckwheat and oats in it. Then crimp the standing rye and leave the clover. Should I spray with gly

It depends. If you are relatively weed free and have something like clover there.....then I would not spray with anything. However, if you intend to plant some brassica or have excessive weeds then you may need to spray it. We have a thread on trying to grow brassica into a clover plot called " My clover is outcompeting my diversity" (or something that sounds like that) and in that thread we discuss how to grow things in a clover plot. Not easy to do sometimes.

 

[matinc]

Thank you foggy I will go look for it to get more information. Side note. Had to change my profile picture to the 12 inch popple stump I pulled with pointed shovel, axe and my Sawzall. 2 hours from start to hole filled in. Gotta luv using my axe for some good shots on some roots

 

[SwampCat]

I have been using the same practice for five or six years now maybe longer. Wheat and a perennial white clover - durana, patriot, or Farmers Co-op generic ladino. I have planted wheat and clover for eight or ten years in my deer plots. About six or eight years ago, I started setting my woods seeder disk gang set almost straight. It plants much like a drill when using that setting - cutting grooves, but only disturbing about 33% of the soil surface. I bush hog the plots in Sept a few weeks before planting in early Oct. If it was an especially dry summer, I will plant a couple of lbs per acre clover, along with 150 lbs wheat per acre. If the plots are underwater for over three weeks, it will kill most of the clover and I will plant 5 lbs per acre clover in the fall with the wheat. I dont wholesale spray any herbicide on these plots. I will spot spray honey locust and johnson grass. I use no fertilizer. Over the past eight or ten years, our springs have become so wet, I can not access 2/3's of the plots with a tractor - so I do nothing to them except early fall. Some of the plots have become inundated with annual rye grass - but the deer eat it and fawn in it and the turkeys dont mind either. I dont use much WR because it gets so tall early spring that the turkeys will abandon the plots. Some of these plots have not been disked in seven or eight years now.

I have one plot, about one acre in size, that I do nothing but throw n mow in early Oct. Wheat and white clover. I have yet to have white clover establish in this plot It is a good bottom land plot, and I have seeded twice the recommended rate of clover. It has established clover back with I used a disk on it - but not with throw and mow. It grows the wheat fine. It has not had a disk on it in ten years.

I have not figured out how to plant and dove and duck plots using no disk or herbicide. Deer plots are much easier.

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

This thread was a great read. Regarding this topic in areas of ground that have never been broken (old pasture), is it possible to really establish a good seedbed without some sort of initial tillage? Would drilling beans and using gly as needed to control seedbank emersion be a better alternative then to broadcast Rye or some type of buckwheat into the old dead cool season grass? If the beans did well at shading out competition, then you could broadcast into them with rye in early fall and be well on the way to a no-till plot in a perfect world.

 

[matinc]

Cool. Maybe SD can answer these questions. Do you have a roller crimper?

 

[matinc]

Cool find us on the thread throw and mow method you might find the information useful

 

[SD51555]

This thread was a great read. Regarding this topic in areas of ground that have never been broken (old pasture), is it possible to really establish a good seedbed without some sort of initial tillage? Would drilling beans and using gly as needed to control seedbank emersion be a better alternative then to broadcast Rye or some type of buckwheat into the old dead cool season grass? If the beans did well at shading out competition, then you could broadcast into them with rye in early fall and be well on the way to a no-till plot in a perfect world.

If it's not even, it won't be until you make it even. I've said sometimes we've got to do some ugly things to get the system to reset, and that means either or both tillage and chemical burndown. I've got to break open a plot expansion in my yard next year. It's both uneven and full of quackgrass and willow brush. I had it rough hogged last fall. I'll lime it right away in spring, keep it mowed with my lawn mower into mid July, and then spray it. Two weeks later, I'll have my neighbor till it up and then I'll seed it.

It's what you do after that makes all the difference. Once you've got your opening to restart, do all you can to avoid having to use those tools again for as long as possible.

 

[Foggy47]

If it's not even, it won't be until you make it even. I've said sometimes we've got to do some ugly things to get the system to reset, and that means either or both tillage and chemical burndown. I've got to break open a plot expansion in my yard next year. It's both uneven and full of quackgrass and willow brush. I had it rough hogged last fall. I'll lime it right away in spring, keep it mowed with my lawn mower into mid July, and then spray it. Two weeks later, I'll have my neighbor till it up and then I'll seed it.

It's what you do after that makes all the difference. Once you've got your opening to restart, do all you can to avoid having to use those tools again for as long as possible.

Tilling it again after the spray is where you will go wrong. I think tilling will only get more weeds and undesirable seeds exposed to compete with what you plant. After the last chemical burn down....you should plant your seeds for a better result. Even if it takes two or three applications of Glyphosate after tilling. Just do not till and then plant....IMO. Telling will just bring up more weed seeds.

 

[SD51555]

Tilling it again after the spray is where you will go wrong. I think tilling will only get more weeds and undesirable seeds exposed to compete with what you plant. After the last chemical burn down....you should plant your seeds for a better result. Even if it takes two or three applications of Glyphosate after tilling. Just do not till and then plant....IMO. Telling will just bring up more weed seeds.

I think that's where timing comes into play. Pull that off late enough in the summer, and that weed flush should be behind me. I don't know how that works south of I-80, but it's a winner up here. When in comes to quackgrass, I have to hit that with 3 modes to knock it out. Keeping it mowed short all summer burns up excess residue and depletes root reserves. Chems kill the rest of the roots, and I need the tillage pass to even out all the rough spots or my pitch and press method will not work. I've got ruts, holes, and ant hills everywhere that need to be smoothed out.

No refunds.