Oaks: Let's have a hard conversation

[SD51555]

Interesting thread. I would absolutely cut an oak tree. That said, I don't have many on my little property. I have released a couple red oaks that produce ok. I'm starting to wonder if there is something wrong with my white oaks. I can't say I've ever seen one produce an acorn.

There were no oaks on the farm where I grew up, so I'm still learning to hunt around them. This year on a permission piece I put a camera under a swamp white oak and got 900 pictures in a week.
Bucks, does, bears, coons, squirrels, and turkeys. Unfortunately, they had the acorns cleaned up before our archery opener.

One year the squirrels buried red oak acorns in all my gardens and raised beds. I had dozens of little oaks the next year. I dug some, potted them, and watered them through the summer, then planted them at the family farm. That was 10-12 years ago and they're only 2-3 feet tall.

Two lessons I'd take from that, and I've had the same lessons.

1. Good white oak acorns where I am, when they fall, they go fast, and long before hunting opens. 2023 was the exception. That was the acorn crop for the record book. You'd think that was a ringer for deer action. It was not. It was like there was 2 bushels of corn dumped under every oak for 100 miles. The deer were so scattered out, they couldn't have cared less about plots.

2. Site matching. I often say, >> "If it was meant to be there, it'd already be there." << Now, that being said, there are rule breakers and some can pull off some nice improvements. But there can be subtle differences in soil just feet or miles away from where something grew well, and that make it's not great for what you're hoping to pull off. I now almost exclusively manage for what already grows here. Advance the good, reduce and repurpose that which isn't good.

I am trying some apples next year, but I won't be the farm on them.

 

[Stubborn1VT]

. Site matching. I often say, >> "If it was meant to be there, it'd already be there."

There is definitely some truth to that. My big mistake was planting them in the woods with the maple, ash, poplar etc. They needed lots more light.

I'm hoping for a repeat of the action I saw early this fall. It was at the southern tip of an "oak island" surrounded by fallow pasture. Only a few trees produced. There are both reds and whites in the island, as well as in the edge of the woods. Back in the woods are some big old white oaks.

Dumb question. Do white oaks stop producing acorns when they get older? It seems like the really big trees never have any.

 

[SD51555]

There is definitely some truth to that. My big mistake was planting them in the woods with the maple, ash, poplar etc. They needed lots more light.

I'm hoping for a repeat of the action I saw early this fall. It was at the southern tip of an "oak island" surrounded by fallow pasture. Only a few trees produced. There are both reds and whites in the island, as well as in the edge of the woods. Back in the woods are some big old white oaks.

Dumb question. Do white oaks stop producing acorns when they get older? It seems like the really big trees never have any.

Native oaks can be unreliable. There are good years and bad. Seems to me there are more bad than good, and that's where improved varieties might have a leg up if they can survive in your area. Not much built for zone 3, so i've got to go with what the Lord gave me.

 

[Foggy47]

When we were building our pole shed.....about 15 years ago.....I noticed a little Burr Oak that was about two feet high near the area I have my buck pole. I put a small fence around it. Fast forward and today that tree is about 5" diameter and 20 feet high. It's spitting out acorns each year for the past 5 years now. Nice big ones too. Many of those small burr oaks that were in my pines were released when we cut down the pine. Hundreds (thousands?) of burr oak are now producing some acorns each year. Now I got lots of squirrels, turkeys, grouse, deer etc that feed on those nuts. Glad to have those trees.

 

[Foggy47]

Two lessons I'd take from that, and I've had the same lessons.

1. Good white oak acorns where I am, when they fall, they go fast, and long before hunting opens. 2023 was the exception. That was the acorn crop for the record book. You'd think that was a ringer for deer action. It was not. It was like there was 2 bushels of corn dumped under every oak for 100 miles. The deer were so scattered out, they couldn't have cared less about plots.

2. Site matching. I often say, >> "If it was meant to be there, it'd already be there." << Now, that being said, there are rule breakers and some can pull off some nice improvements. But there can be subtle differences in soil just feet or miles away from where something grew well, and that make it's not great for what you're hoping to pull off. I now almost exclusively manage for what already grows here. Advance the good, reduce and repurpose that which isn't good.

I am trying some apples next year, but I won't be the farm on them.

I have an apple orchard just a mile north of me. The guy does pretty well with it....and sells lots of apples and cider, etc. I think that is one of the furthest north orchards in our area. Winter by you is pretty harsh. Choose varieties wisely. I've got about 10 trees that spit out some pretty good apples each year.....but soon lost interest in more apple trees after the first year or so. Too much work for what you get.....IMO.

 

[PatinPA]

Interesting thread. I would absolutely cut an oak tree. That said, I don't have many on my little property. I have released a couple red oaks that produce ok. I'm starting to wonder if there is something wrong with my white oaks. I can't say I've ever seen one produce an acorn.

There were no oaks on the farm where I grew up, so I'm still learning to hunt around them. This year on a permission piece I put a camera under a swamp white oak and got 900 pictures in a week.
Bucks, does, bears, coons, squirrels, and turkeys. Unfortunately, they had the acorns cleaned up before our archery opener.

One year the squirrels buried red oak acorns in all my gardens and raised beds. I had dozens of little oaks the next year. I dug some, potted them, and watered them through the summer, then planted them at the family farm. That was 10-12 years ago and they're only 2-3 feet tall.

I have a handful of white oaks and they typically drop early Late August/early september and they go fast. I swear if you're not out there the week or two they drop you'll think they never dropped.

 

[SD51555]

I have an apple orchard just a mile north of me. The guy does pretty well with it....and sells lots of apples and cider, etc. I think that is one of the furthest north orchards in our area. Winter by you is pretty harsh. Choose varieties wisely. I've got about 10 trees that spit out some pretty good apples each year.....but soon lost interest in more apple trees after the first year or so. Too much work for what you get.....IMO.

Mine very much need to be nearly maintenance free. I'm not gonna be spraying or fertilizing. Once it gets to that, the output doesn't justify all that work.

I am considering learning to graft though. I figure if I get up to 25 / $10 trees planted out there, I can start killing some trying to learn to whip and tongue.

There are quite a few apple trees up by me. For the area, I consider a dozen known trees in my neighborhood a lot. But they do exist. I'm buying zone 2 and zone 3 rootstocks and planning to graft only zone 3 or colder onto them. I'll wait a few years to make sure the rootstock is gonna survive first.

 

[Catscratch]

It's been a long time since I read this thread. Has anyone mentioned acorns filling a nutritional gap? I don't hunt producing trees but I do know that I typically have nuts dropping for a little more than a month (DCO's, Chinkapins, Bur, Sawtooth, Reds). I consider that a very significant energy supply for a herd right before the rut and winter.

 

[Stubborn1VT]

I have a handful of white oaks and they typically drop early Late August/early september and they go fast. I swear if you're not out there the week or two they drop you'll think they never dropped.

I only have 6 huntable acres here at the house, and the biggest white oak is right on the edge of my plot. I can't say I've ever seen an acorn. There is another large white oak in our fenced in back yard. That one drops every 5 years or so. White oaks are a mystery to me.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

There is definitely some truth to that. My big mistake was planting them in the woods with the maple, ash, poplar etc. They needed lots more light.

I'm hoping for a repeat of the action I saw early this fall. It was at the southern tip of an "oak island" surrounded by fallow pasture. Only a few trees produced. There are both reds and whites in the island, as well as in the edge of the woods. Back in the woods are some big old white oaks.

Dumb question. Do white oaks stop producing acorns when they get older? It seems like the really big trees never have any.

They don't stop producing. Like other tree species, some years a late frost will nail the "flowers", dry years can make acorns scarce, and sometimes they don't produce because some oaks are not annual acorn producers. We have some really OLD, BIG white oaks at camp. We dumped a bag of 15-15-15 around one at the edge of a field and it made a bumper crop of acorns that year - but it may have just been a good year for that tree. No way to know for sure.

One thing I can share is that our biggest oaks that are surrounded by other big trees (especially pines) don't produce like ones in fields or near field edges. I'm thinking too much competition for nutrients and sunlight from other mature trees?

We have white, red, and chestnut oaks for miles in our mountains. Some years there are lots of acorns, and some years they're spotty or scarce. Just nature's way. The years when there's tons of acorns, the food plots get little action until mid-winter after the acorns are eaten or rotten.

 

[BuckSutherland]

From my experience if you want oaks to produce crown release is the most important thing you can do. They do not like competition in the canopy..... None of my red oaks with surrounding canopy produced worthwhile in 2024. The red oaks that I have crown released had a really good crop again this year. Those acorns are always a big draw.



Also don't think many people can tell the difference between a white oak (Quercus alba) and a burr oak (Quercus macrocarpa). They are not the same thing. From what I have seen burr oak falls late August. The few white oaks I have seen in MN were dropping in late Sept- early October. Burr oak seems to be somewhat of an erratic producer compared to other types of oak. Swamp white oak, red oak and pin oak seem more consistent. A tall skinny oaks doesn't seem to produce near as much as shorter more filled out oaks.


Acorns are absolutely essential for critter survival where I hunt.

 

[Teeder]

It's been a long time since I read this thread. Has anyone mentioned acorns filling a nutritional gap? I don't hunt producing trees but I do know that I typically have nuts dropping for a little more than a month (DCO's, Chinkapins, Bur, Sawtooth, Reds). I consider that a very significant energy supply for a herd right before the rut and winter.

I originally started planting oaks to "draw them in", but now they are nutritional to get them into shape for the rut and winter.
I've found too many big bucks dead in winter. Deer around here could count on some leftover grain in the fields, but the way they harvest now, there isn't a kernel left.

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

I agree that acorns are critical for wildlife survival in a lot of areas, but in some cases they don't improve the hunting. I grew up in SE MN, where the wood lots I hunted were old oak savannah's that slowly filled in with other species. Tons of oaks and acorns everywhere, giving the deer a nearly infinite number of trees to feed under when the acorns are dropping.

On that property, the most consistent hunting spot I had involved a species that weren't there naturally - a row of apple trees planted 75+ years earlier. There weren't very many apple trees in the area, so those trees were a magnet when the apples were dropping. Deer headed to the acorns would stop by the apple trees on the way there. Deer headed to the nearby ag fields stopped by the apple trees for a bite to eat on their way to the fields. Those old apple trees were a great natural staging area for the deer.

I've had good luck replicating that setup on my properties at a relatively low cost now that I graft the trees myself.

 

[PatinPA]

I only have 6 huntable acres here at the house, and the biggest white oak is right on the edge of my plot. I can't say I've ever seen an acorn. There is another large white oak in our fenced in back yard. That one drops every 5 years or so. White oaks are a mystery to me.

Ah ok. they're definitely spotty too which sucks because the deer love them. Much better production out of other species. Mine are all really spindly because they spent most of their lives growing up through hemlocks. They're starting to branch out but the branches are still small so I don't get many to begin with. Usually about the time I see a few on the ground they're gone between the deer and the squirrels.

 

[Stubborn1VT]

From my experience if you want oaks to produce crown release is the most important thing you can do. They do not like competition in the canopy..... None of my red oaks with surrounding canopy produced worthwhile in 2024. The red oaks that I have crown released had a really good crop again this year. Those acorns are always a big draw.

I think this has something to do with it. I released the crown on a couple red oaks just 200 yards from the white oaks and they've responded well. The reason I released them was because they were already producing some. I guess I haven't bothered much with the whites because I've never seen a single acorn.

There could be a number of factors. This group of whites are on the north side of a hill, not enough crown. I also assume they are offspring of the 30" white oak that is on the edge of my plot. All kinds of crown and I have never seen an acorn in the 18 years I have lived here.

Acorns are a short -term draw here, not a major food source. Our winters are fairly mild, not a ton of snow cover, a decent amount of AG. I just started to pay attention because of what I saw in September on a permission piece. 3 oaks with acorns out of 50 in an island of trees. The coons and bears were climbing and breaking off the small limbs. The deer were there at all hours. I tried a couple and they were excellent.

Pic is a young buck on the end of the "oak island", surrounded by pasture, next to a swamp.

 

[Brian662]

Lots of white oaks on my place in WI and it keeps the deer busy until early October, about the same time the "shift" happens that also coincides with bucks laying down a lot more sign and increased activity. Red oaks are also readily available and drop/provide more hunting opportunities during peak seasons.

In MN we have burr oaks and red oak on my land as noted, the burr oak drop too early and very erratically year to year. Red oaks, same as WI, I've been working to release as many as possible.

 

[b116757]

I’ve read that ideally you should have 3 times more reds than whites so when I planted my oaks I shot for about that ratio.

 

[BuckSutherland]

^^^

Well that would work out well for me. I have a couple hundred naturally occurring red oaks. About a dozen of them are massive. 50-100 of them are 30-40+ years old, and hundreds of them are under 20 years old. I have just a few natural burr oaks, and have planted an additional 35-40. I have also added about 40-50 swamp white oak. 10 burr oak gamble that really seem to be struggling and 4 schutte's oak that look like a waste of time. I have 10 white oaks (Quercus alba) that I am planting this spring and I think my oak journey is done. Gonna go real good with a couple thousand conifers, shrubs and a few dozen apple trees.

 

[b116757]

I had 12 acres of highly erodible soil classified open ground that I planted in mostly oaks I could of fenced it off from the row crop field and pastured it but I really wanted to add a nice stand of oaks to that property for hunting opportunities and deer nutrition I may not see much of the fruits of my labor on that project but my kids will.

 

[jsasker007]

I encourage as many oaks as I can. They provide a lot of food for the animals and in the fall I think they help take pressure off of my food plots and let the plots get "ahead" of the browse pressure and leave more food in the plots going into the cold weather. Without the oaks dropping acorns I don't know if I could have enough acreage in plots to keep up with the deer. jmo