New To Habitat Work, Ask Your Questions Here!......Sticky!

[wiscwhip]

sandbur is correct, shallow water 4"-18" and at least minimal flow for wild rice. We got 10 lbs of seed from Kester's in Omro back about 20 years ago to put in our creek bottom. It grew for a few years, but eventually it died out. I don't think enough seeds were making it through the year to reseed itself. For the first 2-3 years the woodies and mallards were thick in the spots we had it growing. NoFo, if you really want some good info on this type of thing, contact Dave or Paul at Kester's Wild Game Food Nursery in Omro, really nice people and very knowledgeable about all types of wetland plants, they also sell tons of other stuff for plots and habitat. I am not affiliated with them in any way, other than I visited there "farm" regularly when I lived in Omro to get items for our place and talk habitat.

 

[EOB]

Basswood? Few years ago when we logged the basswood was not practically worthless. If I understand this deer will browse on basswood buds. Correct? Do they hinge?

 

[Steve Bartylla]

Imo, hinge cutting any poplar over 8 inches is suicide. Poplars barber chair fairly easy.

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to call it "suicide," but I agree that there is risk involved. Heck, there is risk every time we pick up a chain saw. IMO, it's up to each individual to determine the level they are comfortable with.

On larger poplars, they are one of the few trees that, if they have a hard lean, I leave them alone. Many I see with a hard lean, I essentially think to myself, "OK, I know exactly where this will fall and am perfectly safe, as I have an exit plan." With poplar, they snap too fast to cut hard leaners safe.

The trick I've found to hitting a risk level I'm comfortable with is ignore those that lean hard (I still like a little lean to them, but nothing past 20ish degrees). I know Dipper has mentioned that he cuts a % through large poplars and then walks away, waiting for future stiff wind to finish the job.

What I'm comfortable with is reading the tree lean, wind and surrounding standing trees to determine the drop. Then, determine a clear escape route and cut until the tree begins to fall. The split second it begins to fall, I'm exiting, with my eyes on the tree (I've learned to do that with every big tree I hinge, just to play it safe). Using that method, I have very few barber chair on me and around 25ish% of the big ones survive. The overwhelming majority of the rest snap at or close to the cut. In my experience, you get the dangerous barber chairing when you don't cut far enough through.

All that said, PLEASE, anyone that reads this, never hinge trees you are uncomfortable with. It just isn't worth it. Also, one can make a pretty strong case that you are every bit as good off just cutting them using traditional tree felling methods (notch the side the tree leans, cut just above that notch on the other side). As I wrote earlier, a good share will still leaf out that first year and hang onto their leaves as if they were still standing. You just don't get much if any budding that next winter, but you most often have a ton of new shoots for that, anyway.

Thanks for brining this up, KS. I was remiss in not going into this level of detail.

P.S. Those of you that use tree hooks (I try them nearly every year once, believing I have to be missing something, only to leave it in the truck for the rest of hinging season after that first day of lugging it around for the 2 trees I actually use it on), NEVER try pulling larger poplars or any other of the more brittle trees down. To me, that would be "suicide."

 

[j-bird]

I simply avoid hinging large trees. If they are larger than my thigh - I normally simply drop them completely, remove the trunk for firewood and then use the top to support my smaller hinges. In either case - hinged or dropped, your getting buds on the ground and will put food in the reach of the deer. If they are too large to hinge but of a decent species for timber - they MIGHT survive until the next timber harvest.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

I simply avoid hinging large trees. If they are larger than my thigh - I normally simply drop them completely, remove the trunk for firewood and then use the top to support my smaller hinges. In either case - hinged or dropped, your getting buds on the ground and will put food in the reach of the deer. If they are too large to hinge but of a decent species for timber - they MIGHT survive until the next timber harvest.

That's the nice thing about sooooo many improvements. There is more than 1 "right" way. Anther thing I do on low timber value trees that make me nervous (I've been using a chainsaw since I was 10 or 11 yrs old, and there are still trees I look at and say, "no. Life's too short as it is. I'm not going to risk making it even shorter still to hinge a tree.") is to just girdle them twice. It isn't as effective as getting the tops down to ground level, but it will open the canopy in time. I do that often when the tree has dead branches (loggers call them widow makers for a reason) I just can't determine tree lean on a really big one or it's just plain too big for me to feel comfortable hinging (if they are considerably bigger than my significantly larger than it should be waist, I'm probably not going to hinge it).

I'll also use Dipper's method at times. In as many hinge cuts as not, I'll leave 1-3 trees that I'm not planning on hinging far enough to get them to fall (typically, bigger trees that either make me a smidge uncomfortable or those big ones that I just can't determine lean on) to the end. after I have all the other hinging done, I'll cut them about 2/3rds through (far enough that a good wind will take them down, but not far enough to pinch the saw or come down) and walk away. I guess there is a little risk in leaving them up, but is it really that much more of a risk than walking through the woods on a windy day? Unless you're leaving them all over the place, I personally don't think so.

 

[shawnv]

I should have asked before cutting last weekend because I learned that Cherry trees can be put in that group to be careful of. I didn't get hurt but it caught me a little off guard when it snapped and I had not even cut into it very deep.

 

[shawnv]

Every darn tree is a tree to be careful of

Agreed, I still had an escape route but was not as aware of a snap as I should have been. It was a good lesson.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

Every darn tree is a tree to be careful of

I was going to focus exclusively on work for the rest of the day, but had to chime in on this......Soooooooooooooooooo true. A very real risk is getting too comfortable out there. the more you do anything, the better/more comfortable you should get. that said, a bit of fear is a very good thing when it comes to chainsaw work. When you're really hitting your groove, it's way too easy to relax. It's something I fight nearly every day I do chainsaw work. Whether it's the chainsaw or the tree, either can make your wife a widow in a second. I don't let that paralyze me, but I do my best not to forget it, either.

 

[wiscwhip]

I have been felling large trees since before I could drive a car, and I have to remind myself of this every time I pick up a chainsaw. The other thing is, felling and hinging are two totally different animals when it comes to safety.

 

[MoLandOwner]

Value of any tree is going to be based on proximity to a buyer who wants it...basswood here has about zero value because there are no end users who want the stuff. Yes, deer here certainly do browse the buds and young limbs...they hinge "ok" for me

Believe it or not, the wood shim market is hot right now. And no one logged basswood last year to fuel the need. So my buddy is cutting down every basswood he can get right now.

 

[j-bird]

Call me a nut job if you want but I was cutting a large buckeye tree once and I had a voice in the back of my head - my grandfathers voice say, "you better watch what your doing." Well I ignored that little voice and cut away. As the tree started to fall a dead limb stuck high up in the tree that I didn't see come down like it was thrown! It was big around as a ball bat and a good 6 feet long. The blunt end missed me by just a few feet but a smaller lose limb hit me right one the top of the head and left a pretty good knot. I'm certain that old man was looking down saying, "I tried to warn you - listen next time dummy."

Listen to that little voice!

 

[wklman]

The only thing I'll add and most of you already know this, wear chainsaw chaps. They've saved my bacon more than once.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

Listen to that little voice!

OK, so, since I have a plan review in an hour and wouldn't mind eating lunch before it, I may as well not begin a new project until after the phone review (see how well I can procrastinate when I want too? I don't mean to brag, but it can be a real strength of mine).

So, as J wrote, feel free to think I'm a "nut job," just please don't take this as me preaching somehow. I firmly believe that faith or lack there of is a personal thing and I'd NEVER try to tell anyone what they should believe. this is just how things unfolded for me.

Back when gas was at it's highest, I was driving from Marshfield to around Houston MN to hunt. It cost a small fortune to drive there and back in the Suburban for an afternoon hunt, but I had more short people still living at home and being able to be there when they woke up made it worth it.

So, as I always did, I checked weather.com that morning to make sure the aft hunt was still a go. I wasn't dropping a $100 on gas and 4 hrs driving if it was going to be crappy...things looked good.

When I got there that aft, the winds were howling. I dang near turned around and went back home, but I just couldn't see throwing away $100 and 4 hrs on absolutely nothing. So, I instead headed for a stand I had in a huge oak in a valley, figuring that there was no way the huge oak would sway, the valley would help shelter the wind and the wind would likely die down that last 30 mins, as it almost always does.

The stand was an honest 30' up, as I used 6 ladder stick sections to get to the platform. I put it that high because I was covering activity below me, as well as a side hill trail. Even at 30', I was only about 15' above the side hill trail.

As guessed, the oak wasn't swaying. It was a 2 strapper, meaning I had to double up each climbing stick strap to get it around the tree and the stand strap barely made it. That said, I was still a smudge uncomfortable, as the gusts were very strong.

Finally, there's about 30 mins left of light when I realized I hadn't prayed yet. I'll be honest. I almost never go to church anymore and don't pray nearly as much as I believe I should in daily life, but I almost always pray when hunting. No, I'm never asking for a buck. It's just a couple Our Fathers and Hail Maries, and then thanking Him for all he has given me/loved ones and asking for Him to keep an eye over them for me, as well as help me be a better person/father/husband/friend. I realized I hadn't done that yet. So, I begin.

I'm not even half way into the 1st Our Father when a voice in my head tells me to get down and go home to see my family. As I'm praying, I'm actually arguing with myself at how ridiculous that is. The wind is just starting to die, I'm nearing the only time I stand a chance of seeing deer and 30 mins either way isn't going to matter, but the other voice in my head insists. Finally, I relent, but I insist on finishing the prayers first (I argue with myself in my mind all the time...it's very much like real life arguments).

So, I finish, get my stuff together and climb down. My foot sincerely no more than hits the ground, one foot still on the last step when I hear a loud smash. I look up in time to see a branch about the size of my thigh teetering on the platform of the stand and come falling to the ground, landing a couple feet away from me.

Though I have since then, I wasn't wearing a safety harness. I can't remember any other time getting out of a stand on a PM hunt before dark, unless I shot a deer. conclude whatever you want, but I've learned many times over to listen to those voices in my head. The only time I regret it is when I don't.

 

[j-bird]

Steve - You nut job! :D

 

[shawnv]

The only thing I'll add and most of you already know this, wear chainsaw chaps. They've saved my bacon more than once.

Yea, I got a new set of chaps and head gear before starting this year. I know a guy cutting a couple years ago where the chain snapped and wrapped his leg when he had shorts on. Needless to say he's lucky it did not hit his artery as he was cut pretty deep.

 

[sandbur]

Woodcarvers like nice straight grained basswood.
I have some in the basement in case I ever go back to wood carving.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

We are grown men on a computer forum......we are all nut jobs! Don't take all the credit!

Steve - You nut job! :D

Isn't that the truth...in both cases.

 

[Kansas-andres]

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to call it "suicide," but I agree that there is risk involved. Heck, there is risk every time we pick up a chain saw. IMO, it's up to each individual to determine the level they are comfortable with.

On larger poplars, they are one of the few trees that, if they have a hard lean, I leave them alone. Many I see with a hard lean, I essentially think to myself, "OK, I know exactly where this will fall and am perfectly safe, as I have an exit plan." With poplar, they snap too fast to cut hard leaners safe.

The trick I've found to hitting a risk level I'm comfortable with is ignore those that lean hard (I still like a little lean to them, but nothing past 20ish degrees). I know Dipper has mentioned that he cuts a % through large poplars and then walks away, waiting for future stiff wind to finish the job.

What I'm comfortable with is reading the tree lean, wind and surrounding standing trees to determine the drop. Then, determine a clear escape route and cut until the tree begins to fall. The split second it begins to fall, I'm exiting, with my eyes on the tree (I've learned to do that with every big tree I hinge, just to play it safe). Using that method, I have very few barber chair on me and around 25ish% of the big ones survive. The overwhelming majority of the rest snap at or close to the cut. In my experience, you get the dangerous barber chairing when you don't cut far enough through.

All that said, PLEASE, anyone that reads this, never hinge trees you are uncomfortable with. It just isn't worth it. Also, one can make a pretty strong case that you are every bit as good off just cutting them using traditional tree felling methods (notch the side the tree leans, cut just above that notch on the other side). As I wrote earlier, a good share will still leaf out that first year and hang onto their leaves as if they were still standing. You just don't get much if any budding that next winter, but you most often have a ton of new shoots for that, anyway.

Thanks for brining this up, KS. I was remiss in not going into this level of detail.

P.S. Those of you that use tree hooks (I try them nearly every year once, believing I have to be missing something, only to leave it in the truck for the rest of hinging season after that first day of lugging it around for the 2 trees I actually use it on), NEVER try pulling larger poplars or any other of the more brittle trees down. To me, that would be "suicide."

Steve, notice I said, IMO ( in my opinion ) I would like to see anyone come to my place and hinge cut 10 poplars. I bet your success rate would be 30%. I have hinge cut thousands of trees and poplars ( soft mass wood ) are both dangerous and unpredictable. You call it someone ones level of experience.......I call it making the best use of a tree specie. aspen populars shoot out thousands of stems from the root system when the tree is cut at ground level. The more aspen poplars you cut the more regrowth you have. All forestors recommend clear cutting aspen poplars for optimal growth. The bigger the cut of aspen forest, the better optimal regrowth. Higher deer densities can impact smaller regrowths ( 3 acres or under) the bigger clear cut the better in higher deer density areas. Hingeing poplars is virtually worthless in a area where high stem count is needed.

I cant wait to post some pictures of the 26 acre clear cut we had done. This area will be a deer magnet in 2 years. I personally think hinge cutting is over " hyped " at times. The biggest bucks in the record bucks were shot off land with no improvements .......Steve not directing anything towards you, just my honest thoughts.

 

[sandbur]

I suspect some of the lands with no improvements have good hunting because no one enters the property for months. They act as a sanctuary.

I feel that aspen shuld be harvested or just dropped. Aspen clearcuts are some of our most productive habitats for wildlife. Lots of food and cover, and hopefully some other mixed forest nearby.

 

[sandbur]

Aspens turn into nice dirt when you drop 'em and let 'em rot

Or burn them in the woodstove and then scatter the ashes!