Multi-Species Cover Crop Plots In The North

[Telemark]

The multi-species “jumbo plots”, as I call them, are key to November-December doe harvest. At that time of year, I really cannot afford for them to become deer deserts, which they well could resemble without the soybeans.

If you do go ahead with the rotation, it might be a good idea to add a little brassica mix to your beans for a few years to see if the deer learn to eat it. This would help with that late season food supply for the deer. If they never end up eating it, you've only spent about 50 bucks, and it still contributed to your soil.

 

[Telemark]

and I burned the thing down (gly) immediately prior to planting in years 1 and 2. I didn’t like doing so last year, but I have ferocious invading coolseason grasses. forming damn near an ugly green carpet which appeared out of nowhere in May. Hopefully this will lessen down the road,

Try using Clethodim on the grasses. I'm not sure if you can add it to the gly or if you need to spray them separately, but someone here ought to know.

And don't worry about terminating a plot with gly. I understand your desire to get away from chemicals, but gly is very safe for burn-down on food plots, and you should use it when you need to.

 

[omicron1792]

Try using Clethodim on the grasses. I'm not sure if you can add it to the gly or if you need to spray them separately, but someone here ought to know.

And don't worry about terminating a plot with gly. I understand your desire to get away from chemicals, but gly is very safe for burn-down on food plots, and you should use it when you need to.

Really not a reason to spray both together (gly kills all grasses cleth will). Can come back later and spray cleth though. Or use RR beans and hit with gly 3-4 times while growing.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Believe me, the soil transformation is a big part of this. The two food plots, totaling 9 acres, are surrounded by shortgrass prairie(two varieties little blue, sideoats grama, canada wildrye, junegrass, prairie dropseed, and a shitton of forbs) which I likewise established at the same time. I love the profusion of insect life, songbirds, etc. that it has so quickly produced.

Perhaps my largest land management issue is controlling deer numbers. On average, we kill 20 does and one buck each year. The multi-species “jumbo plots”, as I call them, are key to November-December doe harvest. At that time of year, I really cannot afford for them to become deer deserts, which they well could resemble without the soybeans.

I think I and others may have been guilty of reading into your post too much as a “what should i do different to make it better”. It seems maybe your intention was more to confirm that not doing the grant woods style summer blend/fall blend double planting isnt leaving significant soil health benefits on the table? I’d think if you’ve got the living clover and fall broadcasted cereals you are doing pretty dang good.

If there are enough beans that produce pods with all that competition in your spring planting then my prior post might not address any concerns. Your radish aren’t bolting?

 

[Telemark]

Really not a reason to spray both together (gly kills all grasses cleth will). Can come back later and spray cleth though. Or use RR beans and hit with gly 3-4 times while growing.

That's what I thought, but I sprayed a field with gly, and a bunch of stuff survived, including what I thought was a bunchgrass. However, it could be some kind of reed or sedge. I need to get back there and have a look.

 

[omicron1792]

That's what I thought, but I sprayed a field with gly, and a bunch of stuff survived, including what I thought was a bunchgrass. However, it could be some kind of reed or sedge. I need to get back there and have a look.

What rate did you apply?

I have found 2 quarts/acre kills most. And you HAVE to use AMS and NIS. Try AMS supreme or complete (this one already has NIS). Makes all the difference. Can go up to 3quarts/acre if needed.

The 1quart/acre terminates grain crops, but not enough for tough weeds.

Can also add liberty herbicide and gly. Lots of articles that that combo nukes almost everything. Very short postplanting delay but many have planted, sprayed with gly/liberty, and everything has grown fine. Our ole boy @yoderjac had some good info on his use of liberty on here.

Just my experience.

 

[SD51555]

I think I and others may have been guilty of reading into your post too much as a “what should i do different to make it better”. It seems maybe your intention was more to confirm that not doing the grant woods style summer blend/fall blend double planting isnt leaving significant soil health benefits on the table? I’d think if you’ve got the living clover and fall broadcasted cereals you are doing pretty dang good.

If there are enough beans that produce pods with all that competition in your spring planting then my prior post might not address any concerns. Your radish aren’t bolting?

We do drift. I’m certainly guilty. I think his prescription is pretty clear. Go for one planting, high tonnage, and late season drawing power.

I might revisit the residue discussion. If there is buildup, I would go heavier on the beans until that is eaten up and cycling thru. If it’s gonna get burned down and then drilled into, I’d love to see him try some corn and squash with it.


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[Wind Gypsy]

We do drift. I’m certainly guilty. I think his prescription is pretty clear. Go for one planting, high tonnage, and late season drawing power.

I might revisit the residue discussion. If there is buildup, I would go heavier on the beans until that is eaten up and cycling thru. If it’s gonna get burned down and then drilled into, I’d love to see him try some corn and squash with it.

I think your suggestions were pretty on topic with his initial post.

 

[farmlegend]

If you do go ahead with the rotation, it might be a good idea to add a little brassica mix to your beans for a few years to see if the deer learn to eat it. This would help with that late season food supply for the deer. If they never end up eating it, you've only spent about 50 bucks, and it still contributed to your soil.

Try using Clethodim on the grasses. I'm not sure if you can add it to the gly or if you need to spray them separately, but someone here ought to know.

And don't worry about terminating a plot with gly. I understand your desire to get away from chemicals, but gly is very safe for burn-down on food plots, and you should use it when you need to.

Would clethodim have some residual affect on spring planted oats?

 

[omicron1792]

Would clethodim have some residual affect on spring planted oats?

Zero

 

[Telemark]

What rate did you apply?

I have found 2 quarts/acre kills most. And you HAVE to use AMS and NIS. Try AMS supreme or complete (this one already has NIS). Makes all the difference. Can go up to 3quarts/acre if needed.

The 1quart/acre terminates grain crops, but not enough for tough weeds.

Can also add liberty herbicide and gly. Lots of articles that that combo nukes almost everything. Very short postplanting delay but many have planted, sprayed with gly/liberty, and everything has grown fine. Our ole boy @yoderjac had some good info on his use of liberty on here.

Just my experience.

I didn't mix it. The guy who own the field and the gly had his daughter mix up a tank.


Concentrate is hard tonget here the last couple years because of new regulations, so people can be a bit tight with it.

 

[RGrizzzz]

Good point which raises another question to me. There currently is quite a bit of thatch over most of the gtound, however….
2024 will be year three of this program, and I burned the thing down (gly) immediately prior to planting in years 1 and 2. I didn’t like doing so last year, but I have ferocious invading coolseason grasses. forming damn near an ugly green carpet which appeared out of nowhere in May. Hopefully this will lessen down the road, and perhaps I can drill into the residue next spring.

If you're fighting grass, go with clethodim instead of glyphosate.

 

[omicron1792]

I didn't mix it. The guy who own the field and the gly had his daughter mix up a tank.


Concentrate is hard tonget here the last couple years because of new regulations, so people can be a bit tight with it.

I have found farmers have used 1 quart/acre for years to terminate crops. With gly resistance it will leave a lot of weeds. Terminates the crop easily.

 

[omicron1792]

If you're fighting grass, go with clethodim instead of glyphosate.

So, cleth is good if wanting to keep broadleafs. But it is waaaaay weaker on grass than gly in every way, shape, and form. I’m not sure there is a grass not susceptible to gly. Older, bigger bunch grass laughs at cleth.

They use max rate cleth (16oz/acre) to thin native grass stands, meaning it kills about 40% and opens stand. 60% lives.

 

[RGrizzzz]

So, cleth is good if wanting to keep broadleafs. But it is waaaaay weaker on grass than gly if doing a burndown. I’m not sure there is a grass not susceptible to gly. Older, bigger bunch grass laughs at cleth.

They use max rate cleth (16oz/acre) to thin native grass stands, meaning it kills about 40% and opens stand. 60% lives.

View attachment 59887

Agreed. Timing really matters with cleth. The grass needs to be SMALL, which the label specifies.

 

[omicron1792]

Agreed. Timing really matters with cleth. The grass needs to be SMALL, which the label specifies.

Right. Which is not what he was talking about unless I missed something.

Cleth is only good for removing grass from broadleaf plots. And has to be timed perfect. And even then is a pretty weak herbicide.

That’s why many use 8-10oz/acre weak mix of gly on clover plots. Even at that low dose it works better than cleth on grasses and will kill some non clover broadleafs (which cleth won’t). Clover has a natural resistance to low dose gly.

Most of gly resistance is in broadleafs. Grass is smoked by gly at most rates, and 2-3quarts/acre will kill 99.9% of grasses. Cleth at max rate won’t.

 

[Telemark]

I have found farmers have used 1 quart/acre for years to terminate crops. With gly resistance it will leave a lot of weeds. Terminates the crop easily.

I called him. He says it's this:

Juncus effusus - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And it needs to be cut in Spring and sprayed with MCPA. So maybe 2,4D will take it out.

 

[Telemark]

So, cleth is good if wanting to keep broadleafs. But it is waaaaay weaker on grass than gly in every way, shape, and form. I’m not sure there is a grass not susceptible to gly. Older, bigger bunch grass laughs at cleth.

They use max rate cleth (16oz/acre) to thin native grass stands, meaning it kills about 40% and opens stand. 60% lives.

That is really good to know. It saves me a lot of trouble and about 50 bucks.

 

[omicron1792]

SS-AGR-325/AG335: Soft Rush (Juncus effusus) Biology and Control in Pastures

University of Florida, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences Extension outreach is a partnership between state, federal, and county governments to provide scientific knowledge and expertise to the public. The University of Florida (UF), together with Florida A&M University (FAMU)...

edis.ifas.ufl.edu

Looks like it has to be applied at right time and high rate.

2-4d is added to gly for burn downs because gly generally smokes grasses, but has more limitations for broadleafs.

https://wric.ucdavis.edu/information/natural%20areas/wr_J/Juncus_effusus-patens.pdf

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Good point which raises another question to me. There currently is quite a bit of thatch over most of the gtound, however….
2024 will be year three of this program, and I burned the thing down (gly) immediately prior to planting in years 1 and 2. I didn’t like doing so last year, but I have ferocious invading coolseason grasses. forming damn near an ugly green carpet which appeared out of nowhere in May. Hopefully this will lessen down the road, and perhaps I can drill into the residue next spring.

Are you getting these cool season grasses in the plots where you broadcast cereals in sept? I’d think having a solid winter cereal established would combat some of the unwanted cool season grasses in the spring.

I’ve found rye to do a great job fending off reed canary grass and other pasture grass that was growing where I’ve converted them to plots the last few years.