Minnesota (more hunters than deer)?

[bwoods11]

Brooks or anyone else on this site...How many total deer hunters in MN, and how many actual deer do we have?

I know the second question is mostly a guess.

 

[biglakeba$$]

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/wildlife/deer/reports/harvest/deerharvest_2013.pdf

Page 5 has all the stats

 

[bwoods11]

I don't know about more hunters than deer, but I believe that last year there were more tags sold (around 750K) than there were deer in the state

That is really insane. More tags than deer. Either way, when is our state going to look at this.

 

[Freeborn]

That is really insane. More tags than deer. Either way, when is our state going to look at this.

That does not suprise me. If success rates are only XX% they would sell allot more and would if they could. The license only gives you an opportunity for a deer.

Reminds me of university parking spaces, they always over-sold the spaces and justified it by saying students were not always going to be at the parking lot at the same time. What a bunch of crap!

 

[biglakeba$$]

Thankfully for our deer herd; Wind, Rain, and Corn saves oodles of deer from sure death......

 

[wiscwhip]

That does not suprise me. If success rates are only XX% they would sell allot more and would if they could. The license only gives you an opportunity for a deer.

Reminds me of university parking spaces, they always over-sold the spaces and justified it by saying students were not always going to be at the parking lot at the same time. What a bunch of crap!

That is exactly what I was thinking Freeborn. DNR wants kill of 225,000, issues 750,000 tags due to 30% success rate. And yup, they would sell more if they could.

 

[bwoods11]

Percentages or not, you should never issue that many tags. Both ND and SD limit tags every year before the season starts based on population estimates and probable number of bucks and does.

 

[biglakeba$$]

Sadly this isnt SD or ND......

Dont forget that herd optimization for people killed in car accidents= 0 population of whitetail deer

Any deer alive is a chance that someone is killed..... I am not promoting the thought, but there are people out there that do think this way.

 

[wiscwhip]

It's the classic guns and butter economics example. There is no biology being used. NONE. All economics
The MN DNR asks: What is the best we can do or how to optimize the situation? Keep reducing the herd until the license sales falls below a certain level. The hunters keep buying the same amount of tags there is no reason NOT to keep reducing herd.

1) Herd Optimization for Insurance = 0 population of whitetail deer
2) Herd Optimization growers = 0 population of whitetail deer
3) Herd Optimization for hunters = just enough whitetails to keep sales of licenses at or above x dollars

There has been no effect on 3) keep reducing.

Spot on Fish! And now that the "model" has been shown to work, it will grow and spread. I fear there is nothing we as hunters can do to prevent it, other than control what we can and the DNR's be d*mn#d. Educating the masses is like preaching a sermon to your dog, they look at you with wide-eyed interest as soon as you start talking, then wander off to go sniff the @$$ of the first thing that distracts them.

 

[bwoods11]

We're not in ND, SD, IA, MO...or any other state bwoods. We're in MN..where deer hunters don't give enough of a shit to do anything after experiencing a decade plus of steadily declining hunting...and a deer kill on par with the mid 60's this year (literally).

If there was no "general uprising" among deer hunters in this state after the last two years...I don't think such a thing will ever occur.

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Well if anyone brings up limiting buck tags, someone gets on here and says it can't be done. APR, nope somebody has a mature buck in SE MN with one funky point on one side and he can't shoot it, so scratch that.

Move the season back two weeks, nope it snowed too much this year so we can't do that. Despite that fact that 3 of the last 8 gun seasons had rain and lightning in my area (60 degrees or more). Party hunting we can't quit that because some guy in Grand Rapids might shoot a deer first day and have to quit hunting despite taking 5 days vacation.

I can see why there is no uprising because you have guys all over the state and several on this site.... that don't want to change anything. So I guess whatever, don't look at any other states for advice or use or advise based on their regulations.

 

[biglakeba$$]

Well if anyone brings up limiting buck tags, someone gets on here and says it can't be done. APR, nope somebody has a mature buck in SE MN with one funky point on one side and he can't shoot it, so scratch that.

Move the season back two weeks, nope it snowed too much this year so we can't do that. Despite that fact that 3 of the last 8 gun seasons had rain and lightning in my area (60 degrees or more). Party hunting we can't quit that because some guy in Grand Rapids might shoot a deer first day and have to quit hunting despite taking 5 days vacation.

I can see why there is no uprising because you have guys all over the state and several on this site.... that don't want to change anything. So I guess whatever, don't look at any other states for advice or use or advise based on their regulations.

To a degree you are right.... But many on this site do agree with one thing or another in that list. But if you polled the masses, then you are going to find somebody that does not agree with one of the items on that list. And it ends up watering down any of the ideas, because people have differing opinions on what they would like to see done.

Not sure thats right or wrong... People on here and many others do want a better deer hunt.... Thats a fact. Now what is the single biggest change that the MOST people agree on?
I am willing to do just about anything. I want change, no matter how small it is. Status quo is not acceptable to me.
We shot no deer this year by choice. What should we do next?

 

[bwoods11]

I'll pose you this question bwoods...what specifically have you done to further what you'd like to see happen with our seasons...besides talking about it here or elsewhere on the internet? Are you actively involved with MWA? Actively involved with MBI? Actively involved with your QDMA chapter? Actively sending emails to your elected, and continuing to contact them if you don't get answers to your questions? Have you contacted MDHA and asked them their positions? Followed up with them on why you like/don't like those positions? Contributed any funds to the MDDI? Contributed research to the MDDI? Met with the DNR to express your concerns? Contacted your area DNR manager to ask why he doesn't manage for better quality deer?

Not trying to be harsh, just saying that talking on here or other internet sites will get absolutely nothing accomplished.

Why would the MN DNR change? They are apparently doing what their bosses told them to do...right? Why would they look to another state for ideas when those ideas don't fit with their desired goals?

I was involved in the initial meetings the DNR held back in whatever year (stakeholder) process. I have attended DNR meetings 3 or 4 times in regards to feedback on deer seasons/management. Signatures this year for MDDI, emails/phone calls to congressman. Emails to Lou direct. Letters to editor and written articles in publications such as Outdoors Weekly.

Personally I will not have anything to do with MDHA as they support the DNR and they have been just as much of the problem. The MDDI I support but simply limiting doe tags will help some areas and hurt others such as my area (more pressure on bucks).

This is an internet forum, and I don't think I am the only one complaining on here, matter of fact I would say I have complained less on here than you have. What has been accomplished by any region.... besides SE MN?

 

[bwoods11]

To a degree you are right.... But many on this site do agree with one thing or another in that list. But if you polled the masses, then you are going to find somebody that does not agree with one of the items on that list. And it ends up watering down any of the ideas, because people have differing opinions on what they would like to see done.

Not sure thats right or wrong... People on here and many others do want a better deer hunt.... Thats a fact. Now what is the single biggest change that the MOST people agree on?
I am willing to do just about anything. I want change, no matter how small it is. Status quo is not acceptable to me.
We shot no deer this year by choice. What should we do next?

I think it is time for the DNR to do something major. It doesn't have to be acceptable or agreed upon. They need to just do it.

 

[bwoods11]

My friends and I could see this coming. We talked at length in the fish house and sitting by the campfire in the summer discussing this. Yes we are pro-archery hunters, but we also gun hunt. The change to a 9 day gun season, 16 day muzzy season. All at the wrong times. Our hunting has got progressively worse since the late 1990's and early 2000.

Fewer doe tags will help, but it will not turn around until we figure out that you cannot have 25 days of gun season in November and December. If you keep those seasons, you have to limit the harvest somehow (with tags or restrictions).

 

[bwoods11]

I will agree that I have complained on here more than you..my point is that neither of us are going to get anything done by doing that here. I've done all the things I asked if you had done...so if you've done all those too, congratulations...you are one of a few dozen from what I can see.

Whether you or I like it or not, MDHA is the key to getting anything done deer management wise in this state. Legislators all ask "What is MDHA's position on this?" or "What does the MDHA say?"

No sweat, it's a tough fight in this state.

 

[Riggsgwp->]

My perspective on this may differ slightly from others. I got involved (not to the extent others did) because I knew it was the right thing to do. I felt this was our best chance at significant change due to the organization and intelligence of people involved. I never thought we would run into as many obstacles as we did but I always knew I would not let that ruin my hunting. I can't let it because others are looking up to me for their hunting experience to be positive. I will enjoy every second of it when my boy gets older no matter what. I have learned a lot and I will make changes to benefit me and my family but other hunters will have to do the same to have good experiences. That's all I can do but I will still be part of the movement to change Mn deer hunting.

 

[wiscwhip]

What has been accomplished by any region.... besides SE MN?

What has the SE region of MN actually accomplished? APR's? They did nothing that the DNR didn't let them or want them to do, they played right into the hands of the DNR killing machine. APR's are an antlerless management tool in the eyes of DNR's. You tell the Elmer Fudd's they must shoot a forkhorn+, etc., so they lay of the smallest bucks and kill more does if they do not see a legal buck to harvest. More mature bucks on the landscape is just an incidental(and desirable by most) side effect to the killing of more does. Too many have played right into the DNR's hands in regards to APR's being big buck management tools, they are not, plain and simple. In their eyes, they increase antlerless kill and that is what they really want.

 

[bwoods11]

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What has the SE region of MN actually accomplished? APR's? They did nothing that the DNR didn't let them or want them to do, they played right into the hands of the DNR killing machine. APR's are an antlerless management tool in the eyes of DNR's. You tell the Elmer Fudd's they must shoot a forkhorn+, etc., so they lay of the smallest bucks and kill more does if they do not see a legal buck to harvest. More mature bucks on the landscape is just an incidental(and desirable by most) side effect to the killing of more does. Too many have played right into the DNR's hands in regards to APR's being big buck management tools, they are not, plain and simple. In their eyes, they increase antlerless kill and that is what they really want.

You don't think they work, you should see the pictures coming in from that area? Why would there be 70% approval? Plenty of does harvested too, friends that hunt down there say it's the best hunting they have ever had in 30 years. One guy I know compares it to Iowa. Multiple mature bucks on his farm, and he still has plenty of doe to fill tags.

The buck to doe ratio is now more even and his daytime activity has increased dramatically.

 

[Freeborn]

My guess is that most deer hunters in Minnesota don’t see deer hunting as that important. I would be interested in seeing the average number of hours/days deer hunters spend deer hunting per year. My guess is that it’s pretty low which basically tells me deer hunting is just not that important to most Minnesotans. I would think many deer hunters hunt the first weekend of rifle and that is about it.

This would explain the complacency and why the DNR is not motivated to do anything. Bottom line is most people don’t care enough to make the effort.

What to do, buy land in an area with the best deer hunting you can afford, start COOPS, find like minded people, and advocate for change that supports your interests.

 

[wiscwhip]

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You don't think they work, you should see the pictures coming in from that area? Why would there be 70% approval? Plenty of does harvested too, friends that hunt down there say it's the best hunting they have ever had in 30 years. One guy I know compares it to Iowa. Multiple mature bucks on his farm, and he still has plenty of doe to fill tags.

The buck to doe ratio is now more even and his daytime activity has increased dramatically.

I think they work just fine Bwoods, I never said that. Remember, I live right across the river from there and I work with 75 guys who all own farms or their families own farms. I have these guys personally shove their giant racks in my face every year. I lay my hands on them, I do not need pictures. I see them myself, as I do take a Sunday drive across the river now and again. Your friend is in the minority then because I only know of one group that will harvest any amount of does whatsoever, the rest of them only shoot a very small number of does or they may actually let the kids harvest a couple. My point was the hunters asking for APR's was nothing the DNR didn't want them to do in the first place, you just said it yourself, "Plenty of does harvested too,". That is what the DNR's use APR's for, they could care less if you shoot a spike or a giant, as long as the population is kept in check in those areas and hunters keep buying tags, and the big bucks are incidental to the increased doe kill in their eyes. The DNR could care less. That's all, never said it didn't produce larger bucks. If there are other ways to keep the herd in check that are seen as acceptable to the masses(like 8 doe tags), they have no need for APR's. The land in the SE is all private and those private owners did not shoot enough does to appease the DNR and the Fudd's didn't have access to kill them all, so the DNR "listened" to the hunters and put APR's in place to achieve the doe kill they wanted. The bucks I get shown by my coworkers from Buffalo and Trempealeau Co's are pretty darn nice as well and they don't have APR's. They produce every bit as many if not more bucks like that than SE MN.

 

[bwoods11]

I guess I read your post wrong, I thought you were critical of APR. Ummm to be honest, I don't know how many does they killed on their SE MN farm, but I do know they shot some for meat?

Don't think I am critical of Wisconsin, heck I have said many times we should just copy Wisconsin to a TEE!!

Wisconsin has and will continue to shoot bigger bucks than MN, but they have a gun season two weeks past ours. If SE MN and the rest of the state moved the gun season back two weeks, we would never be having this conversation and there would be no need for APR.