Is this really an issue?

[SwampCat]

NWR near me. They had a two buck limit, but, you had to kill a doe before the second buck. Everyone killed the first doe they could - just in case they killed a buck and wanted to keep buck hunting. Not sure if that was the only cause, but deer quality and quantity really declined. They used to allow five deer total, two of which could be bucks, a doe must be harvested before the second buck
Now, the bag limit is three deer total, one of which may be a buck.

I often hear or read - when speaking of harvesting a deer for food - “dont kill a buck, just kill a doe or two”. A lot of people talk about does like they are squirrels. I have plenty of bucks on my place that are never going to be close to making a 130” deer. I would rather someone harvest one of those deer than a doe.

 

[KY wild]

"ABOUT"

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

"ABOUT"

I gotcha. Yeah I was just a little surprised by the numbers. It’s a 10-15,000 deer difference. We need to be doing a better job as a state of flipping that probably

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

We need more of the current to actually harvest a deer, specifically does, here in Wis rather than just more hunters. Plenty of deer, the DNR survey shows our county as having 58 deer per square mile.

This is absolutely insane if you ask me.


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[omicron1792]

I’m in the kill more doe crowd. It has really helped my property, and most of the science I read supports it.

 

[weekender21]

We kill 2x-3x more does than bucks on our place but very few neighbors do. I’ve noticed zero decrease in deer population from year to year. In high deer density areas (we’re 50+ per square mile) it’s hard to make a difference unless everyone is on the same page.


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[SwampCat]

There are definitely areas with more does than needed. I have seen it in the very area I live. I have also seen it where the state stopped doe harvest with modern gun - including the very area I live - because of declining deer numbers. Doe numbers can definitely be property specific. My neighboring cattle rancher has way too many does - but his is the only property in this specific area where that is the case. In fact, I would say in general, my area is low on doe numbers.

It is not just hunting pressure, either. Our fawn recruitment numbers average between .4 and .5 per doe. If your fawn recruitment number is .8 per doe and next year it is .7 per doe, your fawn recruitment only fell a out 15%. If you fawn recruitment is normally between .4 and .5 and it falls by .1 - you are looking at up to 25% less fawn recruitment. Ehd can make a big difference. I guess those folks who say “just kill a doe” have not hunted in an area with a low deer density. If I have numbers of does, I will have bucks. Having buck numbers does not mean you will have numbers of does. I have lived with a decent buck density and low doe numbers.

 

[Hoytvectrix]

The best way of knowing if your deer herd is balanced? How many does have you historically taken for every buck?

I think the vast majority of people that hunt private land in the Midwest likely have shot fewer does than bucks.

 

[SwampCat]

I think the best way to tell if your herd is balanced is if you have enough does to produce enough fawns to maintain the population you want. That is actually more about the does than the bucks. According to my camera surveys, it takes about forty does to produce enough fawns to maintain the population at my place. Since our fawn recruitment is generally around .4 - those forty does produce on average 16 fawns. Those 16 fawns have to equal all mortality - hunting, predation, disease, starvation, vehicle deaths, etc.

The number of bucks is SOMEWHAT irrelevant, in my opinion. It so happens we have about 2.5 does per buck - but I dont believe that number is as important as the doe number. We could have a 1:4 or 1:2 buck to doe ratio, and I doubt it would make much difference as long as there were enough bucks to breed the does and we still have our forty - or more - does. The doe number is what is important at my place.

We one time killed our does down to a 1:1 buck:doe ratio. Ou deer density really suffered. There were not enough does to produce enough fawns to bring the population back. We did not kill a doe for eight years on our place. I talked to almost all the neighbors, trying to convince them to lay off the does. A few bought in. What took two years to create (ruin) took 8 long years to repair. It was all about doe numbers

 

[jsasker007]

The best way of knowing if your deer herd is balanced? How many does have you historically taken for every buck?

I think the vast majority of people that hunt private land in the Midwest likely have shot fewer does than bucks.

Most of the hunters that I know will shoot a doe right away to get some meat in the freezer then they get picky and try for a buck. Central Minnesota.

 

[Hoytvectrix]

Most of the hunters that I know will shoot a doe right away to get some meat in the freezer then they get picky and try for a buck. Central Minnesota.

It might be a culture thing. I don't know anyone in Northern MO that takes 1 doe for every buck they take.

 

[jsasker007]

It might be a culture thing. I don't know anyone in Northern MO that takes 1 doe for every buck they take.

Granted the DNR keeps changing the hunting regs here. For a few years we could take up to 5 deer per person and then we are in a deer lottery for a few years afterwards because too many were taken. Then there was 5 deer per on one side of the road and on the other side of the road they were in a lottery. SHIT SHOW here in Minnesota. DNR probably does more harm than good here in my opinion.

 

[jsasker007]

I just checked and it looks like this year I can take 1 deer of either sex. We are covered up with deer this year. DNR hasn't a clue.

 

[omicron1792]

You can send jaw bone of does you harvest into the state. They can tell you overall health and age of does. Over time they can give good recs on how many does you should harvest on your property.

I give @SwampCat a hard time, but you have to do what’s best for your property. I think we need to do a meet up at his place and I’ll bring all my thermals. He might need to rid the place of some coyotes and bobcats to get his fawn recruitment higher. I wonder the effect pigs have on that also.

I don’t have pigs and I’ve severely lowered the predators on my place. And I have does, bucks, fawns, and turkey running everywhere. I think controlled burns help with this too, creating great bedding and food opportunities.

 

[Brian662]

In my ideal world, the landowner would be given as many doe harvest tags as they'd like and the individual would be able to control the harvest to achieve healthy population numbers.

I personally would rather have extra unfilled tags way more than not being able to even purchase enough tags (current problem in MN).

 

[Kdog]

Here in GA we have very liberal bag limits. We can shoot 12 per year (10 antlerless and 2 antlered) plus can shoot extra that do not count against your total on state or managed hunts etc... I am sure it has changed, but I was on a state hunt years ago where we could shoot an unlimited # of deer (think it is two now). I only shot 2. One was a 9.5 YO doe that dressed out around 60# and the other was a yearling that dressed out around 40#. This was on a state park that was extremely overpopulated and both were donated to hunters for the hungry. Think I saw 52 deer the first morning and around 30 that evening.

 

[SwampCat]

You can send jaw bone of does you harvest into the state. They can tell you overall health and age of does. Over time they can give good recs on how many does you should harvest on your property.

I give @SwampCat a hard time, but you have to do what’s best for your property. I think we need to do a meet up at his place and I’ll bring all my thermals. He might need to rid the place of some coyotes and bobcats to get his fawn recruitment higher. I wonder the effect pigs have on that also.

I don’t have pigs and I’ve severely lowered the predators on my place. And I have does, bucks, fawns, and turkey running everywhere. I think controlled burns help with this too, creating great bedding and food opportunities.

View attachment 68615

It is not just my place, my fawn recruitment is higher than statewide average. I am running 17 cameras now, and I have got two coyote pics and two cat pics in the last month. I have talked with the state guys and something else seems to be going on

I am in Gulf Coastal Plain

 

[BenA]

It is not just my place, my fawn recruitment is higher than statewide average. I am running 17 cameras now, and I have got two coyote pics and two cat pics in the last month. I have talked with the state guys and something else seems to be going on

I am in Gulf Coastal Plain

View attachment 68633

I've always been confused about your fawn recruitment @SwampCat . I don't doubt it because you have the proof that it's happening and know what you're doing with the camera surveys. There has to be some explanation for it. Research has shown that recruitment will go down in populations that exceed carrying capacity. But, you've got the habitat and you've lowered the population so much before that it came back to bite you at one time if I remember correctly. So, that can't be it either. I wonder if you could look at parasite levels or if there is something causing fertility issues. Are fawns being aborted early? Maybe take a sample of does late, late season to see if they were bred? Do you see obviously pregnant does during the summer at a rate higher than they're recruited? Baffling situation you have there for sure.

 

[omicron1792]

I agree with above.

Seeing 2 coyote and 2 bobcats over a month on camera means you probably have 20 coyotes and 2-5 bobcats on your property. They rarely show up on cameras unless you specifically pattern them.

I have had months with no coyote pics on 20 cameras and I will kill 5 that month.

2 bobcats pics in a month is actually a really really high number of pics.

Coyotes don’t seem to go around feeders. If you plane a camera on a dirt road running through property (in a place you never would for deer ) you would be surprised at coyote pics you get.

Here is a pic of a deer running from a coyote. The camera didn’t get a pic of yote at all. But I had a keen ranger video camera on the area and went back through to timestamp on the Tactacam and found the coyote.

 

[Kdog]

I agree with above.

Seeing 2 coyote and 2 bobcats over a month on camera means you probably have 20 coyotes and 2-5 bobcats on your property. They rarely show up on cameras unless you specifically pattern them.

I have had months with no coyote pics on 20 cameras and I will kill 5 that month.

2 bobcats pics in a month is actually a really really high number of pics.

That times two may be a better count of predators. Think of it this way. How many hog pictures do you get VS how many are really out there?